Sachsenring MotoGP Race (Spoilers)

michaelm · Jul 18, 2011

mylexicon said:
Finally watched the race. I don't think the tires were going off. I think the riders took turns cranking up the wick, and the fuel computers intervened late in the race. According to Pedrosa, the fuel computer turns off TC to save fuel. Between Honda and Yamaha, I think the Yamaha has better tractability and that helped Lorenzo eek out a late move when Stoner's tight lines cost him a great deal of time.

Nice racing this weekend. Too bad we have to wait several months in between the good races.

Yes, makes sense for casey at least, the honda has always been the most marginal fuel economy wise, and the ducati he was previously on was the best, with the desmo valves or whatever. His riding style, less smooth than some, probably doesn't help fuel economy on these tight tracks, and there is little evidence that the bridgestone "'hard" tyre which he was apparently on can be worn out in any circumstance by anyone.This may also explain assen; if I were him I would be blaming the tyre technician rather than letting opponents know of possible late race vulnerability due to fuel constraints.

Not so sure about jorge and dani. I think jorge is just extremely good, over-rode the bike the whole race and had no business finishing 2nd, rather than having fuel constraints which I do not recall being a problem for yamaha since the very early days of the pneumatic valve engine. I had a feeling even during practice that dani was going to have one of those week-ends where he achieves a good set-up and is entirely happy with things and "on " it. On such week-ends he doesn't worry over-much about qualifying times and is well nigh untouchable; all credit to him for managing this the second race back after a further significant injury.

povol · Jul 18, 2011

[quote name='Keshav' timestamp='1310956924' post='287741']

I don't imagine any of these guys are staying up all night eating McDonalds on the couch and diddling their Gameboys between races.

They all do whatever is needed to keep fit. Still.. a serious loss of muscle mass, and not ingesting the amount of nutrients one's body naturally craves is known to be detrimental both physically and mentally. This is not a theory; it's well established medical fact.

Compared to all us (relative) couch potatoes - all the riders are superhumanly fit - but within their circle it's all relative and every miniscule advantage can and does make a difference. Can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt - but the gut says Spies and Hayden both are undernourished physically and mentally. I think they are both underperforming.

[/quote

You cant prove it all in Spies case since the numbers tell a different story. On a regular basis, Spies tracks down riders who are seconds ahead of him late in a race. That does not point towards a stamina problem. Im going to go out on a limb and say that even with the more powerful 1000's, Spies will not bulk up unless he quits his favorite hobby of cycling.

Jumkie · Jul 18, 2011

Mackie said:
You seem to like smilies quite a lot. Is it that you are overly expressive or just lacking the words?

13 posts! This had me rolling... hahaha Excellent.

Jumkie · Jul 18, 2011

hawkdriver said:
I just want to point out that Nicky has been riding a POS bike, and it's possible that he would be fighting for top 5 on better equipment. Gotta defend my boy, I think he's better than both Dovi and Spies and he'd be beating them on a regular basis if they were on the same bikes.

Totally agree. Put Dovi and Spies on a Duc, they'd be struggling too. (That is unless you rate Dovi & Spies better than Rossi. )

Jumkie · Jul 18, 2011

Mr. Shupe said:
I wouldn't say Nicky is better than either. Dovizioso out-shined Nicky while riding a satellite Honda. I actually consider Dovizioso a slightly better version of Nicky.

Spies? I think it's a little harder to tell here. Spies never had to face Nicky when the latter was on a factory Honda. Ben's WSBK season doesn't really help the argument either since Nicky has never raced there. However Spies did get a pole position on a satellite bike, at a track where he didn't have an extensive race history. I don't see how we can conclusively say Nicky is better than Spies.

I want you to think about this for a moment. Why when comparing Karel and Rossi this year in practice, qual, and race, does Rossi not look that much better than Karel? (Hint, think Pedro/Puig)

Mr. Shupe · Jul 18, 2011

Jumkie said:
I want you to think about this for a moment. Why when comparing Karel and Rossi this year in practice, qual, and race, does Rossi not look that much better than Karel? (Hint, think Pedro/Puig)

I agree the Ducati is probably holding Nicky back, but I stand by my statements on Dovizioso. He out-shined Nicky while Nicky was a Repsol Honda rider. The Malaysian GP sticks out the most. They fought all race for the final podium spot. Dovizioso won out, riding the Scot Honda. He held Nicky off on the brakes lap after lap if I remember correctly. Finished ahead of him in points that year too.

Nicky is my guy but evidence points to Dovi being better, if not by a whole lot.

Keshav · Jul 18, 2011

povol said:
You cant prove it all in Spies case since the numbers tell a different story. On a regular basis, Spies tracks down riders who are seconds ahead of him late in a race. That does not point towards a stamina problem. Im going to go out on a limb and say that even with the more powerful 1000's, Spies will not bulk up unless he quits his favorite hobby of cycling.

Being a fellow Spies admirer I'm aware of his prowess and techniques; my point is if he weren't down to skin and bones he might well be at the front right from the start the way Lorenzo is on what is essentially the same bike. I think he would be up there at the pointy end early on in the race and battling more often for podiums. I don't think he or Nicky are at their fullest potential.

povol · Jul 18, 2011

Keshav said:
Being a fellow Spies admirer I'm aware of his prowess and techniques; my point is if he weren't down to skin and bones he might well be at the front right from the start the way Lorenzo is on what is essentially the same bike. I think he would be up there at the pointy end early on in the race and battling more often for podiums. I don't think he or Nicky are at their fullest potential.

That doesnt seem to make any sense. The definition of stamina is 'enduring energy, strength, and resilience' with the key word being 'enduring' meaning lasting. Are you suggesting they start out a contest at their least physical prowess and get stronger as the contest goes on. As an athlete who has played highly competitive sports, i can assure you that phenomenon doesnt exist. When you here an announcer say he gets stronger as the game goes on, its a metaphor, he is not actually getting stronger, he is getting weaker, slower than the competition . Maybe you should consider that Lorenzo is just better than Spies.

vladut50 · Jul 18, 2011

hawkdriver said:
With laguna coming up we might be able to see Ben join the fight up front and Nicky might be able to hold on for a better result.

With Laguna race coming soon, I think there will be 4 riders capable of winning: Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Spies. Even Hayden could threaten the podium, though I actually doubt that. I hope Spies does a good job and wins both American GPs. He was second last year in Indianapolis....he should have his revenge on Pedrosa and win it.

Ben finished 6th last year at Laguna, 19 seconds behind J Lo, but this year he looks much better.

Keshav · Jul 18, 2011

povol said:
That doesnt seem to make any sense. The definition of stamina is 'enduring energy, strength, and resilience' with the key word being 'enduring' meaning lasting. Are you suggesting they start out a contest at their least physical prowess and get stronger as the contest goes on. As an athlete who has played highly competitive sports, i can assure you that phenomenon doesnt exist. When you here an announcer say he gets stronger as the game goes on, its a metaphor, he is not actually getting stronger, he is getting weaker, slower than the competition . Maybe you should consider that Lorenzo is just better than Spies.

What I am suggesting is Spies may not be at the top of this game mentally and therefore not able to break away with the front runners.

Lots of riders don't qualify well and yet come up from behind. Some like Spies seem to take longer to get into a rhythm - tho I don't

recall his needing to do this so much when he was racing Superbike or WSBK. I know the orthers have greater experience on the GP

circuit - but it seems to me Spies is regressing rather than progressing. He seems to be having difficulty achieving race pace early on.

You keep harping on the physical and ignoring the mental.

beefsupreme · Jul 18, 2011

Good luck nailing that jello to a wall, povol.

Jumkie · Jul 18, 2011

Mr. Shupe said:
I agree the Ducati is probably holding Nicky back, but I stand by my statements on Dovizioso. He out-shined Nicky while Nicky was a Repsol Honda rider. The Malaysian GP sticks out the most. They fought all race for the final podium spot. Dovizioso won out, riding the Scot Honda. He held Nicky off on the brakes lap after lap if I remember correctly. Finished ahead of him in points that year too.

Nicky is my guy but evidence points to Dovi being better, if not by a whole lot.

It seems you missed the hint and my point entirely. There is a reason I compared Rossi to Karel. Here, I'll give you another hint, think 'type', who might represent Rossi in my comparison who might represent Karel, in relation to your last point.

(On a related note, is Lorenzo and Pedro better than Stoner? He got beat by both this last weekend).

povol · Jul 18, 2011

Beef Supreme said:
Good luck nailing that jello to a wall, povol.

It is a moving target isnt it.

povol · Jul 18, 2011

Keshav said:
What I am suggesting is Spies may not be at the top of this game mentally and therefore not able to break away with the front runners.

Lots of riders don't qualify well and yet come up from behind. Some like Spies seem to take longer to get into a rhythm - tho I don't

recall his needing to do this so much when he was racing Superbike or WSBK. I know the orthers have greater experience on the GP

circuit - but it seems to me Spies is regressing rather than progressing. He seems to be having difficulty achieving race pace early on.

You keep harping on the physical and ignoring the mental.

that being,

having the amount of muscle mass appropriate to their frame - and I would expect, a corresponding degree of stamina,

which a lot of folks speculate are missing in Seniores Spies and Hayden.

Now im no brain surgeon, but i do know for a fact that the brain is not muscle mass. If you want to change the conversation to the merits of Spies physiologic well being, and the possibility that Mary didnt feed him properly when he was a kid, just say so.

hawkdriver · Jul 18, 2011

povol said:
that being,

having the amount of muscle mass appropriate to their frame - and I would expect, a corresponding degree of stamina,

which a lot of folks speculate are missing in Seniores Spies and Hayden.

Now im no brain surgeon, but i do know for a fact that the brain is not muscle mass. If you want to change the conversation to the merits of Spies physiologic well being, and the possibility that Mary didnt feed him properly when he was a kid, just say so.

Rossi has won plenty of races while looking like a skeleton so i think you're right and these guys all have trainers so I'm sure they have their nutrition under control. It's not like they're boxers who sometimes drop serious amounts of weight before a fight with the potential to hurt their performance. I thought they all rode the pedal bikes for training, I remember someone saying that Casey was also an animal on pedal bike. The only rider I've ever heard say he had a hard time staying thin and down right hated it was Mladin and most of us know he had no issues with winning races.

Keshav · Jul 18, 2011

povol said:
that being,

having the amount of muscle mass appropriate to their frame - and I would expect, a corresponding degree of stamina,

which a lot of folks speculate are missing in Seniores Spies and Hayden.

Now im no brain surgeon, but i do know for a fact that the brain is not muscle mass. If you want to change the conversation to the merits of Spies physiologic well being, and the possibility that Mary didnt feed him properly when he was a kid, just say so.

Muscle mass - it's loss or increase - is not independent of body fat where much nutrition that feeds the brain is stored.

If Spies is eating much less animal protein - that would contribute to a corresponding decrease in brain power.

Riders who are naturally smaller and not required to diet excessively have an advantage in that regard.

Keshav · Jul 18, 2011

hawkdriver said:
Rossi has won plenty of races while looking like a skeleton so i think you're right and these guys all have trainers so I'm sure they have their nutrition under control. It's not like they're boxers who sometimes drop serious amounts of weight before a fight with the potential to hurt their performance. I thought they all rode the pedal bikes for training, I remember someone saying that Casey was also an animal on pedal bike. The only rider I've ever heard say he had a hard time staying thin and down right hated it was Mladin and most of us know he had no issues with winning races.

It's only more recently that Rossi has looked skeletal. Mladin simply had no competition other than Spies.

And Mladin was never as skinny as Spies and Hayden - never.

mylexicon · Jul 18, 2011

povol said:
that being,

having the amount of muscle mass appropriate to their frame - and I would expect, a corresponding degree of stamina,

which a lot of folks speculate are missing in Seniores Spies and Hayden.

Now im no brain surgeon, but i do know for a fact that the brain is not muscle mass. If you want to change the conversation to the merits of Spies physiologic well being, and the possibility that Mary didnt feed him properly when he was a kid, just say so.

Spies showed up to Sachsenring sick as a dog. Perhaps you are correct on the biological technicalities, but I think Keshav's point stands in general. If you are 20lbs under weight for your size, it has wide reaching consequences regarding your health both mentally and physically. I'm sure all of these riders have dietitians and conditioning experts to help them out, but I'm also 100% certain they are on the edge of what would be considered "healthy".

beefsupreme · Jul 18, 2011

mylexicon said:
I'm also 100% certain they are on the edge of what would be considered "healthy".

"Healthy" in the sense of having resilience to infections and viruses? Probably marginal.

"Healthy" in the sense of being able to maximize their power-to-weight ratio, whether on a motorcycle or bicycle, over the course of 45 minutes to 4 hours? I'd say they're very well adapted. None of the factory riders are going to give up a few mph because they want to eat donuts. IIRC, Stoner caught hell from his team in 2006 for getting tired towards the end of races.

SuperShinya56 · Jul 18, 2011

hawkdriver said:
You got me I'm biased towards Nicky, and when he was finishing in 4th behind Dovi when the Honda wasn't up to it's current level and Nicky was right with him while being on a bike that only Casey has come to terms with. With Ben it's more of just a feeling. I will say that Dovi is getting better and Ben will too with more experience.

I think Nicky and Dovi have some similarities as well but I think Nicky is better because I've seen him get a little nastier and edgier with riding but yeah Dovi has been impressing me this season.

Dude.............. Nicky "The Kentucky Squid" Hayden will go down in MotoGP history as the most over-rated, fluked champion ever. He sucks. PERIOD.

Below average rider at best. He only got where he is at now due to the HUGE massive support of the Honda factory. Building a whole prototype bike and put it on the market soley for him to win his little AMA championship. Nicky is a dud.

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Sachsenring MotoGP Race (Spoilers)

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Keshav

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