MotoGP: 2015 Round 17 - Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

moto vudu · Feb 27, 2024

michaelm said:
The thing is if he had retired after the 7th/9th title his status would be absolutely unchallenged even by most of the posters who remain on here from that time. I wasn’t exactly a fan, I was a Stoner fanboy from 2007 on, but was a big time Doohan fan back in his day, and actually posted on another forum as Doohan fan. I conceded Valentino was Doohan’s superior after the 6th title, let alone the 7th, and wasn’t big on the advantages thing, Doohan and most of the top riders who preceded him had similar advantages, it goes with the territory. Few if any thought he needed to do anything more to be rated ahead of Ago either. The strange celebration where he as far as I could tell from translations dubbed himsel an old boiler was perhaps prophetic.

As Povol iirc said after subsequent events including the Ducati adventure and his return to Yamaha while Ross is obviously still among the greatest ever it is harder to put him on a level above the other greats as most did back in 2009.

Right, I guess Michael Jordan also ruined his legacy when he quit the NBA and played baseball (arguable unsuccessfully) in '94. He then ran his legacy completely into the ground during his stint with the Washington Wizards.

Ever heard the saying that criticism only comes from below (never above)? It's only people with far less accomplishments than Rossi (or a great in any sport) that think they can decide how good someone was or wasn't. It's very rare for someone that has accomplished MORE to hate on someone that has accomplished less.

MdubSTYLIE · Feb 27, 2024

moto vudu said:
Right, I guess Michael Jordan also ruined his legacy when he quit the NBA and played baseball (arguable unsuccessfully) in '94. He then ran his legacy completely into the ground during his stint with the Washington Wizards.

Ever heard the saying that criticism only comes from below (never above)? It's only people with far less accomplishments than Rossi (or a great in any sport) that think they can decide how good someone was or wasn't. It's very rare for someone that has accomplished MORE to hate on someone that has accomplished less.

Like Rossi's hate toward Marc?

moto vudu · Feb 27, 2024

MdubSTYLIE said:
Like Rossi's hate toward Marc?

That's doesn't come from a place of hatred of Marc's accomplishments. As far as Rossi is concerned, he genuinely believes Marc was out to hinder his 2015 championship run even though Marc was no longer in contention. Believing someone has wronged you isn't the same as just sitting on the sideline with no accomplishments hating on someone that's doing more.

michaelm · Feb 27, 2024

moto vudu said:
Right, I guess Michael Jordan also ruined his legacy when he quit the NBA and played baseball (arguable unsuccessfully) in '94. He then ran his legacy completely into the ground during his stint with the Washington Wizards.

Ever heard the saying that criticism only comes from below (never above)? It's only people with far less accomplishments than Rossi (or a great in any sport) that think they can decide how good someone was or wasn't. It's very rare for someone that has accomplished MORE to hate on someone that has accomplished less.

Your point is ?. I said it was hard to rate him well ahead of Doohan, a guy who won 5 titles after nearly losing a leg when the bikes were much more dangerous, and actually managed to win the last title at age 33. Valentino was 31 when he went to Ducati.

MdubSTYLIE · Feb 27, 2024

moto vudu said:
That's doesn't come from a place of hatred of Marc's accomplishments. As far as Rossi is concerned, he genuinely believes Marc was out to hinder his 2015 championship run even though Marc was no longer in contention. Believing someone has wronged you isn't the same as just sitting on the sideline with no accomplishments hating or someone that's doing more.

What about putting a wall up and being cold toward a rookie teammate? Keep in mind this is a guy who has an academy to help young Italian riders. So why the hate toward his new teammate?

moto vudu · Feb 27, 2024

MdubSTYLIE said:
What about putting a wall up and being cold toward a rookie teammate?

Teammate in the sense of F1 and MotoGP isn't nearly the same as other sports. In GP sports, your teammate is usually the FIRST person you want to beat. If that isn't the case, the rider or driver doesn't belong in the sport. You think Max Verstappen is thinking about how much he can help Perez this coming season?

#22 · Feb 27, 2024

MichaelBolton said:
Just for your info, if you're a native Spanish speaker like yours truly, you can really tell it's an elaborate shitpost made with DeepL or Google translator. Not only it sounds extremely robotic but the dialogue also uses several phrases that are really weird sounding in Spanish and clearly come from a straight direct translation. Not to mention the laughable notion of Jorge finding Vale "too fast" in the last stages of the championship. I'll go in detail:

This is a direct translation of "Morning" as a greeting early in the day. No one, and I mean no one greets like this in Spain. In fact if somebody said to me "Mañana" I'd believe he's talking about something that's gonna happen the day after (mañana can mean both morning and tomorrow).

Very stilted and formal phrase. Correct for formal settings but no one would talk like that informally to a colleague. Funnily enough, you could've made it believable by adding a 'tío' (dude) at the end.

Extremely funny phrase (I need you to stop Vale, he's too fast and he'll catch me). Who are you fooling? Vale is the one who was too slow in the last rounds. Also the phrasing again sounds way too robotic and formal.

No one, and I mean no one says things like to a friend, much less to a simple professional colleague. It's a direct translation of "I love you" but that phrase isn't lightly thrown around in Spanish, people would literally think you're in love with them. I think it's safe to say that Jorge wasn't confessing his romantic love for Marc. Protip: use "Te quiero" next time, still very rare to say between two heterosexual males but more plausible as a phrase thrown in an affective way, not without a little bit of playfulness just like the way Spaniards insult each other affectively.

Of course a paella namedrop, to make a believable cliché. Turns out every Spaniard eats paella every day didn't you know? hahaha. Also another phrase that doesn't sound native at all. It would be something like "¿Vas a hacer paella el lunes?". Haciendo in this case is the wrong verbal case.

I just did it, y si tienes dudas, pregúntame cualquier cosa

Thank you MB. Hablas Espanol, pero en poco. Therefore I got some words but not enough to fully translate and as you said, some words are direct translations which isn't how native speakers interact. It's the same with with Welsh (my native language), I remember watching an episode of 'The Crown' where Prince Charles is speaking Welsh and with English subtitles underneath and I told my wife "that's not exactly what he said'. Welsh is an interesting language, heavy in constenants, fast spoken and often backwards. For example, "Red House" is "Ty Coch"...Ty (pronounced Tee) being House, and Coch being red. So in Welsh you effectively say "House red"

michaelm said:
I think they were as well, that was the telling occurrence, he called his troops off Iannone who was copping considerable flak for beating him at PI and sooled them on to Marquez.

Yep, I remember Jumkie posting to the effect that Rossi said "No no no, Iannone and I are good, it's MARQUEZ who you need to go after"

warthog1 said:
Calm down?

I think the implausability of the VR camp's stance has been calmly and methodically pointed out in this thread in the recent posts.

I have enjoyed reading the competent analysis.

I wholeheartedly agree.

MdubSTYLIE said:
Vale "the gaslight" Rossi

I think I read somewhere that a psychologist studied Rossi during that press conference and commented that he had the appearance, mannerisms and body language of someone who was mentally drained and had not slept much since the PI race.

moto vudu said:
If you're including yourself amongst the race fans who've been following the sport for decades, you certainly seem to engage in a high amount of Rossi-talk indicating he's much more than a blip on your radar.

You know, I was thinking about this and MDub's response mentioning Adolf Hitler. I have some interests that include History, and part of that is discussions that come up about the Titanic and Adolf Hitler regularly. Does that mean they live rent free in my head? No, not at all, but they are monumantal moments in history. Rossi has undoubtedly changed the history of MotoGP much like the sinking of the Titanic or WW2 changed world history. He is part of the sport but like Keshav says, rarely is he brought up except in response to people like yourself and Nick Nac who DO bring him up.

MdubSTYLIE said:
Their relationship was never the same after PI. I am sure if you ask Vale he'd say the same as he did above to MM. But Ianonne never did another race or day at the gaslight ranch again. I have never seen them talk after that.

I never read about that, but it;s interesting. As Melandri said "Valentino is your friend until you beat him"

Also, remember how he approached Dani after Aragon 2015 and asked why he raced him so hard?

michaelm said:
The thing is if he had retired after the 7th/9th title his status would be absolutely unchallenged even by most of the posters who remain on here from that time. I wasn’t exactly a fan, I was a Stoner fanboy from 2007 on, but was a big time Doohan fan back in his day, and actually posted on another forum as Doohan fan. I conceded Valentino was Doohan’s superior after the 6th title, let alone the 7th, and wasn’t big on the advantages thing, Doohan and most of the top riders who preceded him had similar advantages, it goes with the territory. Few if any thought he needed to do anything more to be rated ahead of Ago either. The strange celebration where he as far as I could tell from translations dubbed himsel an old boiler was perhaps prophetic.

As Povol iirc said after subsequent events including the Ducati adventure and his return to Yamaha while Ross is obviously still among the greatest ever it is harder to put him on a level above the other greats as most did back in 2009.

He is another example of a great who stuck around for too long.

Mrpurple said:
He comes off a as a rich kid who was always given what he wants and has surrounded himself with yes-men since the beginning.

His real test was Ducati and that...lol.

Very talented all the same.

I felt that after reading his biography, that was in the late 2000's and I started cooling to him after that.

#22 · Feb 27, 2024

moto vudu said:
Teammate in the sense of F1 and MotoGP isn't nearly the same as other sports. In GP sports, your teammate is usually the FIRST person you want to beat. If that isn't the case, the rider or driver doesn't belong in the sport. You think Max Verstappen is thinking about how much he can help Perez this coming season?

First word...TEAM.

Casey Stoner, Jorge Lorenzo, Marc Marquez, Max Verstappen.

Riders/drivers who have never done the following:

Veto'd a team mate (Rossi did with Stoner to Yamaha in 2006, and tried to with Lorenzo in 2008)
Placed a wall between both sides of the garage

None of them helped those team mates, but they weren't scared of having them on the team. This is another reason the likes of Rossi and Michael Schumacher to me, aren;t the greatest.

moto vudu · Feb 27, 2024

#22 said:
First word...TEAM.

Casey Stoner, Jorge Lorenzo, Marc Marquez, Max Verstappen.

Riders/drivers who have never done the following:

Veto'd a team mate (Rossi did with Stoner to Yamaha in 2006, and tried to with Lorenzo in 2008)
Placed a wall between both sides of the garage

None of them helped those team mates, but they weren't scared of having them on the team. This is another reason the likes of Rossi and Michael Schumacher to me, aren;t the greatest.

TEAM only in the sense their job is to get the best points finish each race, but the riders have NO interest in helping their "teammate" beat them. Max Verstappen's interest is making sure Perez is hindered by ensuring the car is developed only to HIS liking/driving style. That's not much different than putting up a wall in the garage, the message is still the same... "I want to make sure my "teammate" doesn't benefit from anything I'm doing." These men are top competitors, when the lights go out it's everyman for himself, but none of that has anything to do with just hating on someone simply because they've accomplished more.

MdubSTYLIE · Feb 27, 2024

moto vudu said:
Teammate in the sense of F1 and MotoGP isn't nearly the same as other sports. In GP sports, your teammate is usually the FIRST person you want to beat. If that isn't the case, the rider or driver doesn't belong in the sport. You think Max Verstappen is thinking about how much he can help Perez this coming season?

I get that. But he didn't do it before or after to any other teammate. Verstrappen isn't building a wall between teams either so thats a bad example. No one has. He was obviously was threatened by JLo before ever racing him. To me that was the beginning of the end of his dominance. He changed his mindset from I am the best to a man threatened by the new riders.

michaelm · Feb 27, 2024

moto vudu said:
That's doesn't come from a place of hatred of Marc's accomplishments. As far as Rossi is concerned, he genuinely believes Marc was out to hinder his 2015 championship run even though Marc was no longer in contention. Believing someone has wronged you isn't the same as just sitting on the sideline with no accomplishments hating on someone that's doing more.

That’s the whole point, his belief was totally irrational given it was prompted by a race MM actually won, and it was even more unreasonable to act on that assumption by announcing this to the world at the pre Sepang press conference and mobilising the Valeban against MM which occurred before the Sepang race. MM obviously did Valentino no favours in the Sepang race, albeit by racing him legally for position, but 9 years on despite all the accomplishments to which you refer Valentino is the one who seems bitter and dissatisfied despite never at any stage showing he was other than the 4th fastest rider at Valencia, and also being the 4th fastest rider at Sepang if MM actually was faster than him. I somewhat doubt MM will get the 7th/9th or 8th/10th titles himself, which he no doubt aspires to do, but he already seems content with his own considerable accomplishments thus far despite his injury saga etc.

#22 · Feb 27, 2024

But, you missed my point? Has Max Verstappen

1. Veto'd a team mate?
2. Put up a wall in the garage?

I used to work in F1 and have friends who work for Red Bull. Verstappen and Perez have shared debriefs so Perez has access to all of Verstappens data. That is because Verstappen is not insecure and knows he can beat Perez. Does he help him? Absolutely not, as shown by Brazil 2022. However, he doesn't actively hinder him, and the team as a result.

I disagree about Rossi not hating on Marquez because of his achievements. We know that Rossi is obsessed with numbers, and he had a genuine fear that Marquez would eclipse some or all of his records.

moto vudu · Feb 27, 2024

MdubSTYLIE said:
I get that. But he didn't do it before or after to any other teammate. Verstrappen isn't building a wall between teams either so thats a bad example. No one has. He was obviously was threatened by JLo before ever racing him. To me that was the beginning of the end of his dominance. He changed his mindset from I am the best to a man threatened by the new riders.

It's because there was a physical wall (that could simply be walked around if we're honest), but in every garage there's very limited info being shared between teammates (so basically an invisible wall). Your teammate on the same machinery as you is always a threat.

MdubSTYLIE · Feb 27, 2024

moto vudu said:
TEAM only in the sense their job is to get the best points finish each race, but the riders have NO interest in helping their "teammate" beat them. Max Verstappen's interest is making sure Perez is hindered by ensuring the car is developed only to HIS liking/driving style. That's not much different than putting up a wall in the garage, the message is still the same... "I want to make sure my "teammate" doesn't benefit from anything I'm doing." These men are top competitors, when the lights go out it's everyman for himself, but none of that has anything to do with just hating on someone simply because they've accomplished more.

But its a team. The rider/driver isn't obligated to help eachother but the team is. The same engineers make both bikes and work on them ect. Putting a wall up hurt Rossi more than JLo as the result showed over time. Like I said the moment he put up the wall was the moment he showed a crack in his armor.

michaelm · Feb 27, 2024

MdubSTYLIE said:
I get that. But he didn't do it before or after to any other teammate. Verstrappen isn't building a wall between teams either so thats a bad example. No one has. He was obviously was threatened by JLo before ever racing him. To me that was the beginning of the end of his dominance. He changed his mindset from I am the best to a man threatened by the new riders.

I don’t really agree, the wall was because he managed to procure Bridgestones for the last year of the tyre war while Jorge was still on Michelins. He did decide he liked things that way though, which was in keeping with his preference for the original Nastro Azzurro Honda set up he had when he started his premier class career.

MdubSTYLIE · Feb 27, 2024

moto vudu said:
It's because there was a physical wall (that could simply be walked around if we're honest), but in every garage there's very limited info being shared between teammates (so basically an invisible wall). Your teammate on the same machinery as you is always a threat.

Not always. There are plenty of instances where teammates work together in the pit to help each other benefit. You are not obligated to do that but in most cases I see that as more beneficial than choosing to be a "solo' team.

MdubSTYLIE · Feb 27, 2024

michaelm said:
I don’t really agree, the wall was because he managed to procure Bridgestones for the last year of the tyre war while Jorge was still on Michelins. He did decide he liked things that way though, which was in keeping with his preference for the original Nastro Azzurro Honda set up he had when he started his premier class career.

If their not on the same tire than whats the point of the wall? Whats the benefit?

#22 · Feb 27, 2024

MdubSTYLIE said:
Not always. There are plenty of instances where teammates work together in the pit to help each other benefit. You are not obligated to do that but in most cases I see that as more beneficial than choosing to be a "solo' team.

In fact, in F1, it is written into almost every drivers contract that they must obey any reasonable instructions from the Team/Principle.

MdubSTYLIE said:
If there not on the same tire than whats the point of the wall? Whats the benifit?

I believe the wall was originally a requirement of Bridgestone, who presumably didn't want Michelin techs overhearing anything. Probably the same for Michelin.

MdubSTYLIE · Feb 27, 2024

#22 said:
In fact, in F1, it is written into almost every drivers contract that they must obey any reasonable instructions from the Team/Principle.

I believe the wall was originally a requirement of Bridgestone, who presumably didn't want Michelin techs overhearing anything. Probably the same for Michelin.

Which Verstap-on has ignored and even yelled at his team over.

#22 said:
\

I believe the wall was originally a requirement of Bridgestone, who presumably didn't want Michelin techs overhearing anything. Probably the same for Michelin.

Ok that makes sense. I guess I had forgotten that but I still recall Rossi wanting this wall and he was always cold towards JLo. Not that he has to be his friend.

#22 · Feb 27, 2024

MdubSTYLIE said:
Which Verstap-on has ignored and even yelled at his team over.

Oh, I agree! Lewis SHamilton did the same in 2016 too at the final round.

It I were the team boss, I'd reprimand them big time, but it seems that money talks.

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