MotoGP: 2015 Round 17 - Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

Willski said:

Think 100 pages is enough for me on this subject. Time to move onto the Kitchen sale in Glasgow

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Ha!! That's funny man!

GTSurgery said:

Look out newbie posting, although I did join in August before it got interesting, just so I can get in on the drama.

So I can understand MotoGP and Rossi and his worshipers correctly:

1. Marquez is quicker than Rossi. He was slowing down to battle with Rossi. Look at their times in FP and warmup.
2. Lorenzo is not quicker than Rossi. Ignore the times in FP and warmup and race results.
3. Rossi always finds something special on race day. Look at the results.
4. Except at Sepang and PI, because Marquez was sandbagging. Look at the FP times.

Make the narrative however you want it, Rossi stopped racing, lost his cool, and took it personal. Nobody to blame but himself. For all the talk of his ability with mind games, his bluff got called big time.

The penalty is a joke anyway. Any other rider doing what Rossi did would have been black flagged or given a ride through, something that would have affected the championship far worse than starting at the back of the grid. Marquez got a black flag for pitting at the wrong time at PI in 2013 because it was "potentially" unsafe. 3 penalty points? Championship isn't over for Rossi. He's got a factory Yamaha. He will blitz by half the field by the first corner, and the rest of the pretenders by the end of the first lap. Then Dorna can have their miraculous triumph when Honda finishes 1-2, and Rossi finishes behind Lorenzo in 4th. Everyone's happy except JLo who is left whining that everyone should be disqualified.

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..... I can't break my self imposed rule. Can someone else like this for me? Wills? Please...

.... the Philadelphia Eagles. .... MotoGP. .... 100 pages of slop

Kidding. No, unlike Rossi's championship hopes, this Forum is alive and well.

moto vudu said:

Well according to you the penalty Rossi got was BS and should've been much worse. Guess you don't realize that race direction may have taken into account that Marc turned into Rossi and that's why Rossi's penalty wasn't as harsh as it could have been.

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Race Insurrection were very clear. Marc did nothing wrong. Rossi did.

levigarrett said:

I think this is where we are never going to agree despite your exceptional avatar choice. I don't think Marc was slowing Rossi down. In fact, I think Marc was faster. Rossi should have used Marc to pull them toward the leaders with the added benefit of preserving his tires. In the end, Race Direction found Rossi largely at fault and he'll serve his penalty. A lenient one at that.

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Excellent! Rossi's paranoid assumption that Marc was out to get him clouded his sleep deprived (documented) judgment to use Marc as a tow.

The ...... part is even when Rossi deliberately crashed Marquez out he gain more points than he risked of losing in the event Marc found his form in the latter stage. That what makes Race Indiscretion ' s decision a non penalty.

Race Direction in effect "used the penalty to promote Valencia". Roger

Jumkie said:

Race Insurrection were very clear. Marc did nothing wrong. Rossi did.

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MotoGP Race Director explains Rossi punishment

We caught up with MotoGP Race Director Mike Webb in the Sepang paddock to discuss the punishment handed to world championship leader Valentino Rossi for 'deliberate contact' with Marc Marquez in Sunday's Malaysian Grand Prix.

Rossi was given three Penalty Points for causing the clash that put Marquez down and out of the race, after which the Italian rode to third behind Dani Pedrosa and Jorge Lorenzo.

“I'm not going to quote what the riders said in the hearing but I can give you a general idea,” Webb began. “So from what we saw it would appear to be a deliberate move on Rossi's part to push Marquez off the track, or push him wide.

“We heard from both riders. Marquez told us that he was just riding his normal race and minding his own business, making passes on Valentino without contact. Which is true. And that he had no intention of disturbing Valentino.

“Valentino on the other side said it was clear to him that Marc was deliberately slowing down the pace and making it difficult for Valentino to race. That he deliberately ran wide in the turn in order to give himself an advantage in order to get away from Marquez.

“Finally, we actually believe there is fault on both sides.

“Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules. Whatever we think about the spirit of the championship, according to the rule book he didn't make contact. His passes were clean. He rode within the rules.

“Valentino reacted to what he saw as provocation from Marquez and unfortunately his reaction was a manoeuvre that was against the rules. It's irresponsible riding, causing a crash. So he's been penalised for that. We believe the contact was deliberate. He says he did not want Marquez to crash, but he did want to run him wide.”

No decision was taken during the actual race as Webb said he wanted to speak to both riders and watch the video replays at length.

Asked about Rossi appearing to kick-out at Marquez, causing the fall, the New Zealander replied:

“Rossi's evidence is that his foot came off the foot-peg as a result of the contact. From all the video evidence there is no clear shot that definitely shows that his foot slipped off the foot-peg because of contact or that he deliberately kicked. I don't have that as a 'smoking gun' if you like.”

Because Rossi already has one Penalty Point he will be forced to start the Valencia season finale from the back of the grid.

In terms of the actual punishment, Webb was asked to explain why Rossi received three Penalty Points - not more or less.

"It's a precedent. The last time this happened where a rider deliberately made a manoeuvre that ended up in a crash was at Jerez this year [Hanika against Guevara]. In that case we awarded five Penalty Points because the rider [Hanika] admitted he did it deliberately and it was as a result of him being frustrated with the other rider.

“So in this case Valentino maintains he did not deliberately make the manoeuvre. However our view of the whole situation - looking at all the evidence - is that he deliberately ran wide and therefore deliberately caused the contact by trying to run Marquez off the track.

“Hanika was a blatant 'Yes, I tried to hit the other rider, I wanted to hurt him'. This case was 'I did it by mistake' but the end result was still a crash."

When deciding on the penalty, Race Direction also took into account some 'provocation' from Marquez.

"It's my opinion on the way he was riding, the lap time, my perception is that as many riders do he [Marquez] was trying to change the race," Webb said. "But I was very clear with him that he didn't break a rule. So he's not been penalised.

"However we took that into account when making the penalty on Rossi, that he certainly had some provocation. But, as I said to him, it doesn't matter what the provocation is. You can't react in a way that causes a rider to crash."

Even if Rossi had received five Penalty Points at Sepang it would have had the same back-of-the-grid outcome for Valencia. Only if Rossi had been given six or more Penalty Points (to add to the Penalty Point from Misano) would he have triggered the next level of punishment, which is a pit lane start.

Rossi will take a seven point lead over team-mate Lorenzo into the title showdown.

Lorenzo described Rossi's punishment as "unfair" and believes he should have faced a much harsher sanction, while Rossi felt "disappointed" at the penalty.

The Marquez-Rossi feud had been simmering since the Italian slammed the Spaniard in Thursday's pre-event press conference, claiming Marquez had tried to help Lorenzo at Phillip Island.

“We weren't really concerned with [Marquez's] Phillip Island race, especially given what Marc said about having problems with his front tyre, then things came back and he went as fast as he could and won the race," Webb said.

“So it's hard to understand that was a deliberate attempt to slow Rossi down. We didn't see it that way.

“I have a different opinion about today's race. I think he [Marquez] was doing something like that, but many riders in many classes do the same thing and there isn't a rule against it.”

Race direction found fault but didn't find fault evidenced by no penalty.

No penalty no fault.

You can chose to advance the position that race direction made a uttered contradictory statement to advance your position.

Jumkie said:

Race direction found fault but didn't find fault evidenced by no penalty.

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It's just that the fault they found with Marc is not in the rule book so they didn't penalize him, BUT they did take Marc's fault into consideration when penalizing Rossi.

I hereby coin the nickname for Valentino Rossi no longer be the doctor but rather William Crum.


Valentino crummy for short.

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20961306,00.html

moto vudu said:

It's just that the fault they found with Marc is not in the rule book so they didn't penalize him, BUT they did take Marc's fault into consideration when penalizing Rossi.

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What race direction did was craft an explination for the masses despite the reality of what occurred as follows: Race direction did not "find" fault in Marquez, what they did was chose to apply a standard of cynicism that simultaneously they didn't apply to Rossi. Direction basically decided they were in the mind reading business, and chose not to believe Marc while scandalously believing Rossi did not "intend" to crash out Marc while admitting to "deliberately" running him off track. This miscarriaged of impartiality renders their decision a complete contradiction and farce. What they "found" was Rossi holding a gun with shots fired and 'saying' (that is in speech only) believing he didn't "intend " to injury Marquez. Meanwhile Marquez was running the race as we have seen countless riders tangle, but they chose to believe despite his explanation to the contrary, that it was deliberate. Lets be honest, this whole thing was never going to be about facts and beliefs, it was a crafted statement for naive and gullible people to debate it's authenticity.

moto vudu said:

It's just that the fault they found with Marc is not in the rule book so they didn't penalize him, BUT they did take Marc's fault into consideration when penalizing Rossi.

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Well to be fair in all this we are blaming the riders for a mess created by race direction allowing past indiscretions to go unpunished, both by Rossi and Marquez. It was inevitable at some point they would clash, because neither is willing to yield or ever admit to being wrong.

RD should be independent yet clearly it operates under DORNA profit directions. To penalize Rossi during the race would have resulted in millions turning off in disgust. Much better to wait, build the suspense $$$, move on to Valencia where Rossi maintains the lead and will be more motivated than ever to ride at the maximum risk to make up the positions, creating yet another dangerous but entertaining mouth-watering profit prospect. And I predict it will rain.

The precedent and standard Race Direction set was that we should never again see a ride through penalty for dangerious riding, ever, forever.

In addition, the black flag should be retired in regards to seemingly blatant acts of violence, ever, forever.

Jumkie said:

Hey bro, I trust u are watching Koeman vs Klopp.

There are a couple of opinions and line of reasoning you made here that I must take issue with. First of all, Marc running wide in the opening stages (and sometimes in the closing stages) of a race has been a typical issue that Marc has had to mitigate on a regular basis this season. Fact. In fact it has spawned pages of articles and debate as to why or what has caused this to happened. Marc has struggled to get the RCV stopped, the reason why has been highly debated: engine braking, relying excessively on the front tire, fuel load, etc.etc. Running wide at the moment he tried to keep Lorenzo at bay, resulting in Jirge getting away with his early race pace (another routine occurrence this season) converged at the moment you describe as letting Lorenzo through. I'd say the connotation of this description IS a result of Rossi's amazing coup of the power of suggestion. The perversion being, when a rider goes wide it is now under suspicion of dubious intention--a rather infinite slippery slop!

My point dovetails with your assertion that Marc "brought this on himself" the classical victim shaming of a .... caused by a short skirt. But even that is way worse than I propose here, given that Rossi brought this to the table NOT Marc for the affect on public narrative. Marc raced Rossi cleanly, of this there can be utterly no debate. The standard for retaliation, or as you say Marc "brought this on himself" was the crime of racing Rossi cleanly. So in this case Marc was NOT even wearing a short skirt!

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That seems very plausible to me. I couldn't rule it out. However, what I believe happened dovetails nicely into your next post.

Jumkie said:

Marc said he didn't try to hinder Rossi, Rossi fans don't believe him. Rossi said he didn't try to crash Marc out just run him off the track, Rossi fans believe him.

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I don't believe either of them. You believe one of them.

I bet you get tangled up in politics, too.

Willski said:

Just got to watch the race. Interesting

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When does your column on BT debut?

birdman said:

And I predict it will rain.

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Rain dollas on these hoes!

Its time for the FIM to do its job.

When Will Crum takes the field in Valencia, from that point forward whatever addition to his records they should here hence forth be noted with an *.

I don't believe Rossi attempted to kick MM off the bike as the video evidence doesn't clearly and definitively show if he instigated a kick or his leg flick action was caused through MM's contact. You need psychic powers to know the answer to that question.

However, the act of taking the rider wide was most definitely a deliberate action and his intent was clearly to run MM onto the outside of the turn...to intimidate as he has done so successfully in the past.

By forcing MM wide onto that part of the track where lots of loose debris accumulates, especially whilst he is entering the corner leaned over expecting Rossi to run his normal line and speed, Marquez had a very small margin of error and was bound to crash if he made contact. Which is what we witnessed.

This is of course a dangerous, stupid and deliberate act that should have been punished shortly afterwards with a ride through penalty or black flag...as would have been the case for most other riders I suspect.

However that scenario wont earn nearly as much as letting it slip through the net...by "deliberating" on the "punishment" until after the race and thereby imposing a grid penalty, SPAIN Inc. have the decider in front of a MASSIVE Spanish crowd and global audience with the promise that the golden bopper army still may get the last laugh if JLO goes .... up at any stage during the race...and the anticipation that would bring for next years championship...KACHING!

Its Economics 101 gents...but yet again the rules seem to have been bent to please the wishes of a certain golden goose and the yellow ninjas that will defend him to the death no matter what dishonor he brings to the sport.

The yellow army has recruited Crazy Joe to make things right (or wrong depending on your views) at Valencia.

birdman said:

Well to be fair in all this we are blaming the riders for a mess created by race direction allowing past indiscretions to go unpunished, both by Rossi and Marquez. It was inevitable at some point they would clash, because neither is willing to yield or ever admit to being wrong.

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I agree with this, and have little time for MM who has often been actually dangerous imo whilst Rossi seldom has been. I am something of a Lorenzo fan now though, and he imo has raced rather fairly throughout his premier class career. It still seems a strange argument that it is OK for Jorge to be behind Rossi in the points because riders other than Rossi have beaten him, but not for him to improve his position by other riders beating Rossi; some of those calling MM a poor sport were actually hoping and more or less calling for MM to favour Rossi over Jorge pre-race, and the Thursday outburst accusing MM of tanking in the PI race which he won remains bizarre.

Some satisfaction in seeing the double standards laid bare, as there possibly is for you as a Stoner and Biaggi fan.

Just to take a tangent from Birdy a little here but I wonder what Honda/HRC think of Marquez not concentrating solely on his race and therefore possibly not producing the best result for Honda/HRC.

We have our own opinions on a number of things but there are some aspects (such as that raised by Birdy) that may have escaped the thought so I would genuinely be interested in Honda/HRC thoughts on MM

Likewise I would be interested in what Yamaha think of the situation, both the leadup and actions as like MM, it would seem that their riders concentration may not be 100% to the race but rather impacted by what he expects to happen.

Would love to have been a fly in the wall of a few pits last weekend and meeting rooms over the next few days

Austin said:

I don't believe either of them. You believe one of them.

I bet you get tangled up in politics, too.

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I certainly believe one of them, because the other guy I observed (that is my eyes on the sequence of images that occurred) used the machine under his control as a weapon. And he admitted as much.

What do you base your belief Marc was lying? A hunch? Him running wide and assuming you know why? Him being accused by Rossi and assuming there is some truth? Overtaking Rossi after being overtaken himself, assuming only ONE of those had ill intent in the maneuver? You see, you don't think both are lying, as much as you think Rossi's overtaking was for pure reasons while Marc's were dubious. You believe one and not the other too my friend.

Gaz said:

Just to take a tangent from Birdy a little here but I wonder what Honda/HRC think of Marquez not concentrating solely on his race and therefore possibly not producing the best result for Honda/HRC.

We have our own opinions on a number of things but there are some aspects (such as that raised by Birdy) that may have escaped the thought so I would genuinely be interested in Honda/HRC thoughts on MM

Likewise I would be interested in what Yamaha think of the situation, both the leadup and actions as like MM, it would seem that their riders concentration may not be 100% to the race but rather impacted by what he expects to happen.

Would love to have been a fly in the wall of a few pits last weekend and meeting rooms over the next few days

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Your entire premise is based on a flawed assumption. Marquez ran his race and conducted it to extract the best result. At the stage where his pace matched a rival on the field (happens routinely) the two riders fight for position. Your assumption is that this fighting occurred as a reflection of Rossi's slanderous accusations. I think HRC believe Marc was conducting his race normally, frankly, you should too.

The point that has been difficult for you and Rossi fans to make is that when two riders find themselves matching each other's pace, that therefore the "suspect " rider should pull over and follow. You think you know who is the "suspect" rider.

If I accuse you of being a pervert, should you be allowed around women?