MotoGP: 2015 Round 17 - Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

moto vudu · Oct 25, 2015

Dr No said:
So...Vudu. What's your take on Rossi not going to the Presser?

I just assumed he's too pissed to want anything to do with the media right now. If he feels as though it was Marc that hit him and he didn't cause Marc to crash, but was penalized as if he did and his championship hopes are all but gone... I can understand not wanting to talk until he's had a chance to cool off.

gwudi · Oct 25, 2015

not all black and white

hi!

so, this is my first post here and would like to say "hello" to all of you!

next is, pls excuse any mistakes (spelling and grammar), for i live in Austria (no, no kangaroos here) and english is not my mother tongue...

and yes, i´m one of the "yellow army" as some refer here to, but...my initial reaction was "damn, he must get disqualified for this, although Marc asked for and kind off deserved it, because otherwise both of them most likely would have ended in the dirt."

if you, objectively, look only on this single incident - ignoreing the previous laps - yes, rossi should have been disqualified, however...

if the "haters" on the other side try too to look objectively at the whole situation...

marc doesn´t fight for the championship this year, what does not mean that he has to let rossi pass without some fighting for his position, BUT he didn´t fight lorenzo, he didn´t even try to keep up with him, although his pace was better all over the weekend. and than, as some1 allready pointed out, put on the boxing gloves against rossi.

instead of trying to catch up again to lorenzo and fight for a better position, he "stayed" to battle rossi. so rossi overtook him easily, not just once, and marquez fought back, fair but ver, very hard, taking the risk of both of them crashing out. he would lose nothing, rossi the championship...

rossi even showed him to quit this .... out for now a few times and instead try to catch up to lorenzo again (what marquez and rossi would have been capable off), but marquez continued to battle exremely hard at a point in the championship where he has no chance whatsoever for the title. so at some point, after rossi had overtaken him multiple times, the right move within a gentleman agreement would have been to at least not liberately take the risk for both of them to crash out.

so...yes, going strictly by the rules concerning this single incident, rossi should have been disqualified, no need to argue about that. but this is one of this cases, i think, where it´s not all black and white. marquez didn´t break the rules obviously, but himself made very hard and askworthy maneuvers and contact to rossi before, accepting the risk of both crashing out, making it hard to not believe he is intentionally doing certain "things"...all he did was holding rossi back, although he could have tried to catch up to lorenzo again and really fight for his best possible position in this race, sedcond! leaving the fight to where it belongs, lorenzo and rossi.

and yes, this is definetely the case of "lorenzo only become champion because off.."

and last, i don´t know exactly which race this year it was where marquez in the last turn oppened his brakes, bumping into rossi and sending him wide into the dirt, but - only by luck - not crashing...this was also a very, very, very hard or even borderline maneuver of him, with no chance whatsoever to win without trying to make rossi crash. so marquez isn´t a white knight himself.

so after all...very disapponting finish to a very exciting season (of course also disappointed by rossi for his behaviour, although it´s, up to some point, understandable).

cheers!

Gaz · Oct 25, 2015

From - MotoGP News - MotoGP Race Director explains Rossi punishment

We caught up with MotoGP Race Director Mike Webb in the Sepang paddock to discuss the punishment handed to world championship leader Valentino Rossi for 'deliberate contact' with Marc Marquez in Sunday's Malaysian Grand Prix.

That contact put Marquez down and out of the race, while Rossi rode on the third place behind Dani Pedrosa and Jorge Lorenzo.

“I'm not going to quote what the riders said in the hearing but I can give you a general idea,” Webb began. “So from what we saw it would appear to be a deliberate move on Rossi's part to push Marquez off the track, or push him wide.

“We heard from both riders. Marquez told us that he was just riding his normal race and minding his own business, making passes on Valentino without contact. Which is true. And that he had no intention of disturbing Valentino.

“Valentino on the other side said it was clear to him that Marc was deliberately slowing down the pace and making it difficult for Valentino to race. That he deliberately ran wide in the turn in order to give himself an advantage in order to get away from Marquez.

“Finally, we actually believe there is fault on both sides. Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules. Whatever we think about the spirit of the championship, according to the rule book he didn't make contact. His passes were clean. He rode within the rules.

“Valentino reacted to what he saw as provocation from Marquez and unfortunately his reaction was a manoeuvre that was against the rules. It's irresponsible riding causing a crash. We believe the contact was deliberate. He says he did not want Marquez to crash, but he did want to run him wide.”

No decision was taken during the actual race as Webb wanted to speak to both riders and watch the video replays at length.

Asked about Rossi appearing to kick-out at Marquez, causing the fall, Webb replied:

“Rossi's evidence is that his foot came off the foot-peg as a result of the contact. From all the video evidence there is no clear shot that definitely shows that his foot slipped off the footrest because of contact or that he deliberately kicked. I don't have that as a smoking gun if you like.”

Because Rossi, who went on to finish third, already has one penalty point he will be forced to start the Valencia season finale from the back of the grid.

Rossi will take a seven point lead over Lorenzo into the title showdown. Lorenzo described Rossi's punishment as "unfair" and believes he should have faced a much harsher sanction.

The key comment here is “Valentino reacted to what he saw as provocation from Marquez and unfortunately his reaction was a manoeuvre that was against the rules. It's irresponsible riding causing a crash . We believe the contact was deliberate. He says he did not want Marquez to crash, but he did want to run him wide.”

Unfortunately however and on a different tack we also see the media doing their usual 'hate on another' with Lorenzo described Rossi's punishment as "unfair" and believes he should have faced a much harsher sanction.

Jumkie · Oct 25, 2015

Those trying to victim shame Marquez as supposedly complicit in his own demise smack of religious zealot. Racing and overtaking for positions have now become the subject of suspicion, the perversion being Marc did something wrong to race Rossi.

propagandhi · Oct 25, 2015

gwudi said:
hi!

so, this is my first post here and would like to say "hello" to all of you!

next is, pls excuse any mistakes (spelling and grammar), for i live in Austria (no, no kangaroos here) and english is not my mother tongue...

and yes, i´m one of the "yellow army" as some refer here to, but...my initial reaction was "damn, he must get disqualified for this, although Marc asked for and kind off deserved it, because otherwise both of them most likely would have ended in the dirt."

if you, objectively, look only on this single incident - ignoreing the previous laps - yes, rossi should have been disqualified, however...

if the "haters" on the other side try too to look objectively at the whole situation...

marc doesn´t fight for the championship this year, what does not mean that he has to let rossi pass without some fighting for his position, BUT he didn´t fight lorenzo, he didn´t even try to keep up with him, although his pace was better all over the weekend. and than, as some1 allready pointed out, put on the boxing gloves against rossi.

instead of trying to catch up again to lorenzo and fight for a better position, he "stayed" to battle rossi. so rossi overtook him easily, not just once, and marquez fought back, fair but ver, very hard, taking the risk of both of them crashing out. he would lose nothing, rossi the championship...

rossi even showed him to quit this .... out for now a few times and instead try to catch up to lorenzo again (what marquez and rossi would have been capable off), but marquez continued to battle exremely hard at a point in the championship where he has no chance whatsoever for the title. so at some point, after rossi had overtaken him multiple times, the right move within a gentleman agreement would have been to at least not liberately take the risk for both of them to crash out.

so...yes, going strictly by the rules concerning this single incident, rossi should have been disqualified, no need to argue about that. but this is one of this cases, i think, where it´s not all black and white. marquez didn´t break the rules obviously, but himself made very hard and askworthy maneuvers and contact to rossi before, accepting the risk of both crashing out, making it hard to not believe he is intentionally doing certain "things"...all he did was holding rossi back, although he could have tried to catch up to lorenzo again and really fight for his best possible position in this race, sedcond! leaving the fight to where it belongs, lorenzo and rossi.

and yes, this is definetely the case of "lorenzo only become champion because off.."

and last, i don´t know exactly which race this year it was where marquez in the last turn oppened his brakes, bumping into rossi and sending him wide into the dirt, but - only by luck - not crashing...this was also a very, very, very hard or even borderline maneuver of him, with no chance whatsoever to win without trying to make rossi crash. so marquez isn´t a white knight himself.

so after all...very disapponting finish to a very exciting season (of course also disappointed by rossi for his behaviour, although it´s, up to some point, understandable).

cheers!

zipfelklatscher!
welcome.

one thing i'd like to point out to those saying marquez rode a sec slower than the lead at the time of the incident:
no ...., wheel to wheel battle isn't as fast as the quali line

gwudi · Oct 25, 2015

propagandhi said:
zipfelklatscher!
welcome.

one thing i'd like to point out to those saying marquez rode a sec slower than the lead at the time of the incident:
no ...., wheel to wheel battle isn't as fast as the quali line

servas sacklpicker!

spottswoode · Oct 25, 2015

Jumkie said:
You have cowardly ignored the premise again. Let's make this more simple, because I won't let YOU weasel out of it. I believe there are some honest participants in this sport. Do you believe there are honest participants in this sport?

Haha. I, for one, am certain that there are honest participants in the sport. You can generally find them occupying grid positions ~11-25.

Jumkie · Oct 25, 2015

Gaz said:
From - MotoGP News - MotoGP Race Director explains Rossi punishment

We caught up with MotoGP Race Director Mike Webb in the Sepang paddock to discuss the punishment handed to world championship leader Valentino Rossi for 'deliberate contact' with Marc Marquez in Sunday's Malaysian Grand Prix.

That contact put Marquez down and out of the race, while Rossi rode on the third place behind Dani Pedrosa and Jorge Lorenzo.

“I'm not going to quote what the riders said in the hearing but I can give you a general idea,” Webb began. “So from what we saw it would appear to be a deliberate move on Rossi's part to push Marquez off the track, or push him wide.

“We heard from both riders. Marquez told us that he was just riding his normal race and minding his own business, making passes on Valentino without contact. Which is true. And that he had no intention of disturbing Valentino.

“Valentino on the other side said it was clear to him that Marc was deliberately slowing down the pace and making it difficult for Valentino to race. That he deliberately ran wide in the turn in order to give himself an advantage in order to get away from Marquez.

“Finally, we actually believe there is fault on both sides. Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules. Whatever we think about the spirit of the championship, according to the rule book he didn't make contact. His passes were clean. He rode within the rules.

“Valentino reacted to what he saw as provocation from Marquez and unfortunately his reaction was a manoeuvre that was against the rules. It's irresponsible riding causing a crash. We believe the contact was deliberate. He says he did not want Marquez to crash, but he did want to run him wide.”

No decision was taken during the actual race as Webb wanted to speak to both riders and watch the video replays at length.

Asked about Rossi appearing to kick-out at Marquez, causing the fall, Webb replied:

“Rossi's evidence is that his foot came off the foot-peg as a result of the contact. From all the video evidence there is no clear shot that definitely shows that his foot slipped off the footrest because of contact or that he deliberately kicked. I don't have that as a smoking gun if you like.”

Because Rossi, who went on to finish third, already has one penalty point he will be forced to start the Valencia season finale from the back of the grid.

Rossi will take a seven point lead over Lorenzo into the title showdown. Lorenzo described Rossi's punishment as "unfair" and believes he should have faced a much harsher sanction.

The key comment here is “Valentino reacted to what he saw as provocation from Marquez and unfortunately his reaction was a manoeuvre that was against the rules. It's irresponsible riding causing a crash . We believe the contact was deliberate. He says he did not want Marquez to crash, but he did want to run him wide.”

Unfortunately however and on a different tack we also see the media doing their usual 'hate on another' with Lorenzo described Rossi's punishment as "unfair" and believes he should have faced a much harsher sanction.

I honestly cannot believe what I've read there.

Webb has stated he has the ability to read Marquez 's mind! Meanwhile, he believes Rossi was not trying to "crash out" Marc BECAUSE Rossi did not admit to it. My god, the world has gone mad.

Would Webb have developed the thought on his own without Rossi inputting this mud at the pre-race conference? Why then is Marc's testimony deemed a LIE while Rossi's testimony is deemed to be absolutely honest? (who admitted to pushing him out wide).

The world has gone mad.

Marc said, well I was racing normal and minding my own business racing clean. Webb says, yes that is correct and true, Marquez rode within the rules. But bares some fault BECAUSE ROSSI felt it was deliberate. This is the classic victim shaming of: it was her fault for getting ..... because of her short skirt.

Make no mistake, this is utter .........

Dr No · Oct 25, 2015

moto vudu said:
I just assumed he's too pissed to want anything to do with the media right now. If he feels as though it was Marc that hit him and he didn't cause Marc to crash, but was penalized as if he did and his championship hopes are all but gone... I can understand not wanting to talk until he's had a chance to cool off.

That's a very magnanimous view.
Personally, I see it as a disrespectful tantrum by a guy who have difficulty justifying his behaviour without rehearsal.

moto vudu · Oct 25, 2015

nghiemlong · Oct 25, 2015

MM is totally in a ....... mode. Race fixing is unacceptable, what a farce.

I would prefer an Italian - Spanish fight in Valencia where Iannone or Dovi take out JL, and Rossi leave MotoGP right after the race.

birdman · Oct 25, 2015

And no wonder Pedro failed his boat license, he doesn't even understand the rules of racing. Simply put Marquez was leading into the corner. If Rossi wants to overtake within the rules he has to make a clean pass. Sure if Rossi was in front he could run to edge of the track but prior to the corner he was behind so its simple, in trying to overtake he caused a fellow competitor to crash out.

moto vudu · Oct 25, 2015

birdman said:
And no wonder Pedro failed his boat license, he doesn't even understand the rules of racing. Simply put Marquez was leading into the corner. If Rossi wants to overtake within the rules he has to make a clean pass. Sure if Rossi was in front he could run to edge of the track but prior to the corner he was behind so its simple, in trying to overtake he caused a fellow competitor to crash out.

When do you see MM in front of Rossi?

birdman · Oct 25, 2015

moto vudu said:

Here

moto vudu · Oct 25, 2015

birdman said:
Here

Marc was never in front there bud.

birdman · Oct 25, 2015

moto vudu said:
Marc was never in front there bud.

You don't get it. Rossi is passing Marquez not the other way round. If Marquez was attempting a pass on Rossi and falls stiff .... for him. Rossi is passing Marquez and causes an accident. Ah .... why am I trying to convince a bobber?:frusty:

I bet it was the Rossi fan club putting up that supposed Lorenzo pass under yellow for their hero as well.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 25, 2015

michaelm said:
The Jerez incident with Stoner wasn't dirty, just reckless, but in no way Stoner's fault and it was very understandable both that Stoner was piqued and that a show apology with the press in tow and helmet still in situ didn't cut it for him. What was insane was that Stoner immediately became the party at fault according to that element among Rossi's fandom, so any reaction to current events shouldn't surprise you.

That was an occasion when Rossi as a rider not in contention for the championship significantly interfered with a rider who was btw. The 2010 post leg break win late season win against Lorenzo who as opposed to MM was actually his team-mate was another; imo Valentino was entitled to go for the win in that race but it does make his attitude to MM's supposed tactics last week which actually led to a race win hypocritical.

Excellent points as usual...Its also the hypocrisy of his fan base that defend the indefensible I find so disturbing.

Cudos to guys like Basspete Mdub etc for calling it how it is on this occasison.

Xplosiv27 · Oct 25, 2015

moto vudu said:
When do you see MM in front of Rossi?

thanks for the little movie and now look at the front wheel as Rossis kicks the handle bar. only a dumb blind rossis the ...... lover and a race director could not see it, everyone else can.

I don't care if they where racing hard that's what they are there to do.
I don't care if MM was helping JL they are friends, it is for the powers to be to deal with that.

#22 · Oct 25, 2015

Mr Squiggle said:
Gaz....

What are the rules regarding the circumstances of being black flagged during a race?

I was amazed that Rossi was allowed to complete the race or at the very least given a time or ride through penalty.

Simoncelli was given a ride through at Le Mans in 2011 for a much less severe offence...

gwudi said:
marc doesn´t fight for the championship this year, what does not mean that he has to let rossi pass without some fighting for his position, BUT he didn´t fight lorenzo, he didn´t even try to keep up with him, although his pace was better all over the weekend. and than, as some1 allready pointed out, put on the boxing gloves against rossi.

Welcome.

Marquez didn't fight Lorenzo because Lorenzo pass him when he ran well wide into a corner, thus he wasn't in a position to immediately re-challenge JL. This was not the case with Rossi.

If you look at MM's bike in the first few laps, it was moving about a lot and he was running wide often. Compare that to Pedrosa and Lorenzo's early laps. Multiple tenths faster and smoother/cleaner. MM didn't have the pace to stay with DP & JL.

The only person to ruin what has been a good season is Rossi himself, he conciously made a decision to break the rules and force Marquez off the track. Whether he hit him or not is irrelevant, the helicopter view clearly shows he blocked Marquez' line to the point where he had to either turn into the corner, or go off track. Marquez raced to the rules, Rossi didn't.

moto vudu · Oct 25, 2015

Ok, now looking at it from the helo angle I can see that Rossi definitely blocked Marc from turning in.

MotoGP: 2015 Round 17 - Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

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