How does Casey go about beating Rossi now...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 21 2008, 08:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It won't be possible to block that easily on some of the other tracks but this was a big win for Rossi which will have lasting effects on Stoner.

Rossi knows now to grab the lead and get physical... takes the electronics and race simulation out of the question.
I think after this race Stoner's respect for the Doctor will be on the back burner for a while. I would bet his aggressiveness will be much greater if faced with a similar situation. Real great race though I wished it had gone to the wire regardless of who won it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 21 2008, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BUT....I must say that this race DOES highlight my original thought that the WAY that Ducati can be ridden to victory is very particular.....by this I mean that Stoner depends on being able to open the throttle full and let the bike do the work (TC). In traffic or when someone is blocking, he can't do it, so the bike gets sideways as his throttle input is not consistent. This was brought to light by the onboard telemetry showing Stoner going to full throttle before Rossi while still being behind him.....as anyone knows, the rider in the front will/should be able to do that first. The other Ducati riders, as Melandri said himself early in the season, are less trusting in that system so they either dial down the system or fail to use it as Stoner does so they experience mixed results. Stoner has the balls to pin it to the stop and trust the Desmo to stay planted. But this being its greatest strength, as Rossi exposed, it is also its greatest weakness.
You don't think the different ways the bikes are set up and the differences in riding style and very different ways each rider uses to get through corners which are obviously optimised to suit the characteristics of the bikes might also have something to do with when the throttle can be applied?
I still have not heard an explanation from anyone as to how or why ducati would continue to have a significant electronics advantage 28 or so races into the 800cc formula given that the bikes have the same basic hardware and that there are no restrictions on the other companies hiring software engineers as far as I know under that formula.

Dudes...it's ONE race.....Rossi won't be able to hold a defensive line like that at Burno and on....i'm just hopin for some MORE close racing

Bring Gibernau back! The two factory Ducatis will be baying for Rossi's blood. Both Sete and Casey aren't big fans of Rossi's overtaking...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 22 2008, 02:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I still have not heard an explanation from anyone as to how or why ducati would continue to have a significant electronics advantage 28 or so races into the 800cc formula given that the bikes have the same basic hardware and that there are no restrictions on the other companies hiring software engineers as far as I know under the current formula.

A Melandri Quote
"I use very, very much less than him. Almost the next step down from the setting I use is zero and I am not able to use the potential of the system.


If Stoner uses a higher setting... he can still use the straight line speed to do a better overall laptime than his rivals.

But just as important it gives Stoner the stability and confidence to ride the bike very fast.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 22 2008, 01:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A Melandri Quote
"I use very, very much less than him. Almost the next step down from the setting I use is zero and I am not able to use the potential of the system.


If Stoner uses a higher setting... he can still use the straight line speed to do a better overall laptime than his rivals.

But just as important it gives Stoner the confidence to ride the bike very fast.
Sure he may very well use more tc, and rossi himself said last year that casey used the electronics better than anyone else. All I am saying is that it is likely that rossi could use as much tc if he so desired; I agree it would not help a cornerspeed rider/bike as much as a point and shoot rider/bike.
Whether casey could still ride this way without as much tc we (hopefully) may get to find out in future seasons; I think tyres are probably involved also.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 21 2008, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You don't think the different ways the bikes are set up and the differences in riding style and very diiferent ways each rider uses to get through corners which are obviously optimised to suit the characteristics of the bikes might also have something to do with when the throttle can be applied?

I still have not heard an explanation from anyone as to how or why ducati would continue to have a significant electronics advantage 28 or so races into the 800cc formula given that the bikes have the same basic hardware and that there are no restrictions on the other companies hiring software engineers as far as I know under that formula.

Naturally, the set up plays a role, but the major advantage Casey was capitalizing on is very specific in terms of input and Rossi found the ..... in the armor. The Ducati needed a rider not afraid to wide open the throttle and let the ECU control the rear wheel...very brave at 100+ banked at 60 degrees.
Remember M, in 2007 the Duc had more raw HP, not a better TC system. In early 08 the racing was more equal, because the Japs had closed the power gap, BUT....in recent races Ducati wised up and advanced the TC system while everyone else was trying for HP so they are reaping what they sewed.

The more TC you use, the more the power is sucked out. You will go nowhere with TC turned up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jul 22 2008, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The more TC you use, the more the power is sucked out. You will go nowhere with TC turned up.


Not only that, but the Yammy is on rails and so stable under brakes compared to the other bikes.
It's got as much if not more electronics than every other bike. This bike bobbles the least of every bike on the grid but some would try to tell you it has the least electronics.

Others have covered it off but hey, I may as well add my two cents.

The track played a major part in deciding the outcome on Sunday as it's very nature allowed VR to play the spoiling role and ensure that CS could not get into any rhythm. It was critical for VR to lead exiting the corkscrew as that was the start of the section where CS was quickest, so when he had to VR just planted the bike in CS' face (all judgement aside).

Future tracks have different characteristics so VR will need to find other avenues to keep CS behind but don't forget that there will be tracks where VR will not want to lead the whole race as well.

But, what CS now needs to do is sit down and watch the race again. Not to get more wound up but to watch how VR managed to keep him behind. He needs to watch teh video for those subtle changes of line, watch how the better handling Yamaha was slower than the Ducati through some corners as VR slowed and controlled the pace. He needs to ensure that he learns as much as he can so that the next time he rides just as hard as VR did and gives no quarter to the opposition.

In short, he needs to treat what happened as a lesson in how to control the pace and keep a quicker rider behind as there will be times in the future where he needs to do just that.






Garry

All Stoner needs to do is continue riding like he has been. It could have so easily been Rossi running off and dropping the bike instead of Stoner anyway. Hopefully we will see more battles like that this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 22 2008, 06:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Others have covered it off but hey, I may as well add my two cents.

The track played a major part in deciding the outcome on Sunday as it's very nature allowed VR to play the spoiling role and ensure that CS could not get into any rhythm. It was critical for VR to lead exiting the corkscrew as that was the start of the section where CS was quickest, so when he had to VR just planted the bike in CS' face (all judgement aside).

Future tracks have different characteristics so VR will need to find other avenues to keep CS behind but don't forget that there will be tracks where VR will not want to lead the whole race as well.

But, what CS now needs to do is sit down and watch the race again. Not to get more wound up but to watch how VR managed to keep him behind. He needs to watch teh video for those subtle changes of line, watch how the better handling Yamaha was slower than the Ducati through some corners as VR slowed and controlled the pace. He needs to ensure that he learns as much as he can so that the next time he rides just as hard as VR did and gives no quarter to the opposition.

In short, he needs to treat what happened as a lesson in how to control the pace and keep a quicker rider behind as there will be times in the future where he needs to do just that.
Garry
I have seen the first few laps now which I hadn't before and the corkscrew incident in context is obviously a racing incident. However it was a mistake and the fact there were not adverse consequences was not in his control; sure he kept the bike up but would have crashed into casey without action from casey.

If anything I now think valentino's strategic victory was greater than I did previously. It looked to me that casey had enough gap soon after the start if he had gone at the pace he demonstrated later in the race. I think confidence/ arrogance perhaps engendered by valentino's pre-race comments made him think that he had time to warm up his tyres, dice with valentino with impunity or whatever; I wouldn't count on him making such a mistake again at a track where a blocking strategy might work perhaps unfortunately for fans of actual racing.
EDIT
Then again his strategy might be deeper still, in that it might prompt casey to go harder than he needs to early at a track where he has more advantage; one more dnf or low points finish will almost certainly end his chances.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 21 2008, 08:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi knows now to grab the lead and get physical... takes the electronics and race simulation out of the question.


Dude they all use electronics, even Rossi. Stoner has been the best at setting up and riding a motogp bike recently, but at Laguna Rossi and Co cracked it and got on terms.

I think a lot of Rossi's victory depended on surprise and Stoner wont be surprised if it happens again, he'll be waiting for it.

Hi Guys
Great Post hey this will raise a few eyebrows...

There is another scenario we are not talking about, and that is if SETE GIVEN-UP rides now for the rest of the year. That could be very interesting to say the least, we all know Vale ...... with Sete head, and Sete cant stand Vale.. just imagine Brno now?

Mabe Stoner can help Given-up get onto the front row,

LIGHTS GO GREEN WERE RACING AT BRNO STONER GETS THE HOLESHOT HE IS OFF, VALE IN SECOND INTO TURN 1 BUT OH NO SETE HAS RAN INTO THE SIDE OF ROSSI? ROSSI IS IN THE GRAVEL PIT, HE CANT PICK UP HIS BIKE. SAFETY MARSHALLS ARE HELPING, ROSSI GETS GOING.
STONER TAKES OFF WINS BY A MILE PEDROSA SECOND GIVEN-UP THIRD ROSSI FINISHES 6TH..

Now just think about that?? lets face it Sete owes Rossi big time, and it could be a master stroke be Livio Suppo, and i dont think Stete would lose to much sleep, and he could end up in the Factory Team next year not the Alice Team...

.... im a .... stirrer..
Ciao

A week ago we were going through the pre race threads pondering the question how is anyone going to beat Casey. My answer, somewhat stupidly I guess was brake later and get on the gas earlier. The notion that we had to slow the bikes down, or ban Ducati or whatever was seen as the answer by the marvellously myopic.

My somewhat parsimonious response was seen as a little too simplistic however it is a viable answer and as much as we try to complicate racing it’s about whittling every little advantage you can from a given situation until the sum of your advantages is greater than the other guys. Valentino did this sooooo well and as No.1 Casey fan I wholeheartedly agree he (Vale) did nothing wrong and everything right during the race.

Casey may have (none of us are true soothsayers) won if he hadn’t run off; then again Valentino may have kept the pressure up. Valentino knows a hell of a lot and is the master but Casey can learn some of this and at the end of the day he is fast. Real fast. Easier to teach a fast guy other things than it is to teach a slow guy how to go fast.

The bike and rider package for the Yamaha and Ducati look very tight. The Yamaha was on average speeds less than 1km slower than the Ducati and Casey had the bike squirming trying to change his lines to cope with Vale.

Casey will win by adapting; Vale will win by adapting to those adaptations. And so on and so forth infinitum...

I’m amazed at all the negativity; this is potentially the best year for a championship and racing in the four stroke era and we get to see it. It is going to be close and it will go to the next level, as the race at Laguna did the other day.

As for Casey being a sook or whatever, he’s young, he also needs someone like Doohan to coach him which I don’t think he’s getting, I mean, who is the racer that is his mentor like Doohan mentored Valentino or Alberto is mentoring Dani? Casey had Lucio and Alberto for brief periods but is generally isolated from that level of experience. Someone like Mick would have told him that he is playing the bigs and suck it up. He needs an old head and I am hoping that Sete and maybe Nicki can teach him that side of the sport because he needs to brush up on it.

I am casting a bit of blame at his team for allowing some of this and not providing the necessary “psychosocial” support that many of the young racers (such as Dani and Vale) had or have on a regular basis.

That said this is not the U.S election and in a previous post I lampooned getting Barack Obama to ride the Ducati due to it being able to ride itself (yawn) and the need for personality - charming ....... that Obama... Like him or not Casey has the skills and is here to stay and if he never wins the personality or miss congeniality award then it really won't matter that much when he has a number of world championships on the shelf. And it is fair to say, it will be more than the 2007 championship given the state of play at the present time. He is the only real challenger to Valentino and can win races with greater ease than any of Valentino’s prior adversaries.

I do ask you to consider this. I quote Vince Lombardi who said, “show me a good loser and I’ll show you a loser”. The sport right now needs Casey to challenge Valentino as much as the sport needs Valentino. Without Casey this would be a Valentino parade, followed by Dani, then Jorge and the fire that everyone has in them right now and the virulence displayed on this post would be little more than literary (and racing) narcolepsy. Vale wins, Vale wins, Vale wins…. and that is worse than a Casey led parade because it represents too many years without change.

Casey made Vale take it to the next level and I don’t care who wins but that is the edge of your seat racing the series needed.

Long live Vale, long live Casey and it will be "long live motogp" as a result.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 21 2008, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Either way i don't think Stoner has to resort to Rossi's racing values to win. He can do it his way
On a long straight.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 21 2008, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>maybe if rossi did a better job at his starts, he'd have a better shot at winning more races.
Despite already showing us he can win from 11th, not ideal but Rossi can do it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 22 2008, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am hoping that Sete and maybe Nicki can teach him that side of the sport because he needs to brush up on it.

Casey made Vale take it to the next level and I don’t care who wins but that is the edge of your seat racing the series needed.

I don't think you'll find Nicky teaching Stoner anything, he is direct competition.

I enjoy reading posts like yours from people who are truly appreciative and enthusiastic about the season we are witnessing. Cheers buddy

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 22 2008, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think you'll find Nicky teaching Stoner anything, he is direct competition.

I enjoy reading posts like yours from people who are truly appreciative and enthusiastic about the season we are witnessing. Cheers buddy

A very conditional "maybe" in my post based on Nicki perhaps and just maybe being Caseys future team mate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 22 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A very conditional "maybe" in my post based on Nicki perhaps and just maybe being Caseys future team mate.

Of course Nicky doesn't need to willingly teach him anything, but Casey will be able to learn a lot from observation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 21 2008, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Better "TRY" than Stoners this Sunday style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Needed to be said,Curve.
Casey has to put up or shut up.I was watching the 04 dvd last night and thought nothing has changed since then.This is REAL racing!!!! AND that is from a Stoner FAN!!!!!