Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
But spec tires are allowed? Isnt that part of the system? So maybe MotoGP is not prototype racing after all.
But spec tires are allowed? Isnt that part of the system? So maybe MotoGP is not prototype racing after all.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Bird, long post, but u like Pov & Squiz STILL havnt answered the simple question. What the .... would u prefer people call racing devoid of close universally exciting racing? U guys keep dancing around on tangents. Peeps r not saying ther is no emotion or that they dont appreciate prototype (depending on ur definition) or admire amazing riding. The ....... racing, the kind u saw in Moto2, is not there. Did u guys even watch Moto2? Was ur general emotional excitement the same for MotoGP? Thats whatsome peeps are talking about. That difference. If ur gonna tell me u wer as excited to see the racing in Moto2 equally as MotoGP, then no use talking about it. If u wer to randomly ask 10 peeps at the races and as them which was more exciting, id bet most would tell u Moto2. Plain and simple.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
I remember many years where 250cc had closer racing than 500cc. Or 125cc had pretty much the best racing ever. Yes I liked it and got excited. I didnt find moto2 Aragon that much different to many old 250 races, but again yes I liked it. Is it that smaller capacity enables closer racing rather than specific rules or riders?
At the same time I always enjoyed the speed that only came from the 500. The sense of the rider being pushed to the limit by the bike, rather than other riders. I got it then and I still get it now with 800cc. I even enjoy watching Rossi, so much more because he now reminds me so much of Biaggi haha - its the bike!
Finally Jum, I would really like to see a combined race of motogp and SBK riders all on superbikes. And with the way motogp is now I probably wouldnt mind if all we had was moto2 and SBK, but i would miss the technology.
You're still left with the problem of the racers -- they're not prototypes, they have the same DNA as production models. The Red Bull Academy needs to start splicing some insect genes into the youngsters, see which makes for the fastest reflexes.
I never watch a MotoGP race and get bored, regardless of how many overtakes, regardless of the weather, or regardless of who wins.
Definitely better racing in Moto2 at Aragon, but there have also been some good MotoGP races this year, and there will be more to come.
Definitely better racing in Moto2 at Aragon, but there have also been some good MotoGP races this year, and there will be more to come.
Joined Apr 2011
1K Posts | 87+
Pangea
Jumkie I love your input on this forum....really I do. But I often conjur up this mental picture of a mutant chihuahua on steroids barking its head off at everyone that dares to disagree with said chihuahuas opinions - the fact you never give an inch in a debate in which you have already decided the outcome is a somewhat admirable trait and you would make a good racer with this "never say die" mindset but it can be frustrating to get involved in an argument with you when you do go down this path.
I have never compalined about boring races at any stage of watching 500/990/800 era racing even though I agree with the priciple that the racing at present is "predictable"....I still find many things during times like this that are entertaining. I mean this year has been the most revealing I can recall in my entire time of watching the sport. So many myths have been busted this year that Adam and Jamie should do a MotoGP special at seasons end.
It has been hilarious to watch the so called GOAT fail so miserably after his arrogant statements before his arrival at Ducati. It will do Rossi the world of good IMO to eat some humble pie and this karmic justice we are now witnessing is the highlight of the season for me.....watching his fans self destruct after their constant belittling of other riders is equally hilarious and I am enjoying the shadenfraude immensely. If Stoner can win the title at Phillip sland this year justice will have been served.
And as far as arguing with Talps goes....name me a time when I WASNT arguing with Talpa. It is a favourite past time for everyone who has a balanced view of the sport. His constant cries of hypocrisy are a source of great amusement to me. He obviously has no concept of irony and his completely biased opinions and self righteous attitude have made him look like the fool he surely is - and that has also been a highlight of this season.
Joined Apr 2011
1K Posts | 87+
Pangea
I agree that the last few Moto2 races have been an awesome spectacle and the "racing" is incredible. FAR more entertaining to watch overall than MGP has been for most of the year. Does that mean I am bored with MGP.....absolutely not.
Stoners pass around J-Lo at Laguna has so far for me been the highlight of any race I have seen this year....that was simply mind boggling and I find that single move to be just as exciting as any entire Moto2 race we have so far had when you consider the bravey and skill required to make that move in those circumstances.
Remove 21L fuel restrictions.
Remove 6 engine rule.
Remove testing restrictions.
Lessen the reliance on electronic aids.
Bring back the tire war.
These are the rules I least like in MGP and would like to see abolished but I think if you did go down this path you would probably see an even greater gap at the front and not closer racing....none of these suggested ammendments to the rules seem to be in the spirit of true prototype racing and the safety of the riders would probably be jeopardised so I really dont have a clue as to how you would go about "fixing" the racing in the premiere class to make it more "entertaining" without compromising the prototype nature of the series. Do you have any ideas how to fix it?
Some very good posts fellas - I am not as capable to put my thoughts into words but I laugh at the "boring" comments about the premium catergry.
I started getting enthused since Spencer/Lawson/Gardner days so long before I knew what boppers were and other modern speak but this modern world imo creates analysis paralysis with so much available to use nowadays wish I knew how to make more use of it but I couldn't be ...... to spend the time on the pc to educate myself but I wish to say the good ol KISS principle comes back to bite another great catergry imo......
As for the comment by Jumkie and please not word for word by were we aussies as enthused the years CS wasn't a winner ? speaking for myself I applauded VR everytime, he has done amazingly and good luck to he for he certainly carried on with the batton for who would have thought Micky Micks 5titles in the modern era would have been beaten - regardless of the back dealings behind Pit Walls here and there,he did it.
Another thing I wish to add that hasn't been mentioned and wish not to offend anyone but "boring" being mentioned so much, TALENT !? maybe many of you have too high expectations for 3/4 of the motogp field ?
I and many here I'm sure were spoilt, again my opinion what eras before or after had talents capable of being up front like these guys Rainy,KS,Lawson,Mick,WG,Beattie,Magee etcetc fighting for podiums.
Look at this current field CS and Lolli are the only ones ! am I being too harsh ?
As for the racing this season I'm loving it - as Squid mentioned CS's moves at Guna were unreal, infact I was blown by his previous move taking Pedbot at the corkscrew before taking Lolli down the main straight, prior to that his slide show in and out of corners previous races, yes our own is on it but my enjoyment has never changed I love the sport even when my countrymen isn't the winner you got to admire the "Alien" for there is always just "1" pity followers can't get over their emotion who they admire first but applaud even when it hurts when your seeing a great show !
I started getting enthused since Spencer/Lawson/Gardner days so long before I knew what boppers were and other modern speak but this modern world imo creates analysis paralysis with so much available to use nowadays wish I knew how to make more use of it but I couldn't be ...... to spend the time on the pc to educate myself but I wish to say the good ol KISS principle comes back to bite another great catergry imo......
As for the comment by Jumkie and please not word for word by were we aussies as enthused the years CS wasn't a winner ? speaking for myself I applauded VR everytime, he has done amazingly and good luck to he for he certainly carried on with the batton for who would have thought Micky Micks 5titles in the modern era would have been beaten - regardless of the back dealings behind Pit Walls here and there,he did it.
Another thing I wish to add that hasn't been mentioned and wish not to offend anyone but "boring" being mentioned so much, TALENT !? maybe many of you have too high expectations for 3/4 of the motogp field ?
I and many here I'm sure were spoilt, again my opinion what eras before or after had talents capable of being up front like these guys Rainy,KS,Lawson,Mick,WG,Beattie,Magee etcetc fighting for podiums.
Look at this current field CS and Lolli are the only ones ! am I being too harsh ?
As for the racing this season I'm loving it - as Squid mentioned CS's moves at Guna were unreal, infact I was blown by his previous move taking Pedbot at the corkscrew before taking Lolli down the main straight, prior to that his slide show in and out of corners previous races, yes our own is on it but my enjoyment has never changed I love the sport even when my countrymen isn't the winner you got to admire the "Alien" for there is always just "1" pity followers can't get over their emotion who they admire first but applaud even when it hurts when your seeing a great show !
Joined Feb 2008
3K Posts | 470+
Outback Steakhouse
I haven't been on the forum for a few days due to other commitments and i see this one is still running. To be honest, I haven't read back through all the posts to where I left off, so please feel free to ridicule / abuse me if this has already been said / covered over the last few days but......
It appears we are still arguing over the same very basic point. It appears that very few people on here find MotoGP ' Boring ' even if Stoner, or Rossi, or Doohan, or Joe Bloggs is dominating every race. Its not boring to watch Stoner ride a bike. Its awesome. Its not boring when you stand by one of those 800's when they start it up. Its awesome. I love everything about this sport ( and most forms of motorcycle racing ) but............
Wouldn't we all like to see closer racing in this class ? I could be wrong as I am not an expert like a lot of people on this forum, but surely seeing stoner scrapping with Your Gay, with Dani, With SuperSic, hell with Rossi until the last lap would be more entertaining than watching him run off into the distance.
I do realise that the machinery has an impact and also know we cannot tell Stoner ( or whoever is the dominant rider ) to slow down and wait for the others to catch up to make it more fun for us all but.....
The Moto2 race was far more entertaining in the first two corners than the whole GP race. Thats the simple fact isn't it.
It appears we are still arguing over the same very basic point. It appears that very few people on here find MotoGP ' Boring ' even if Stoner, or Rossi, or Doohan, or Joe Bloggs is dominating every race. Its not boring to watch Stoner ride a bike. Its awesome. Its not boring when you stand by one of those 800's when they start it up. Its awesome. I love everything about this sport ( and most forms of motorcycle racing ) but............
Wouldn't we all like to see closer racing in this class ? I could be wrong as I am not an expert like a lot of people on this forum, but surely seeing stoner scrapping with Your Gay, with Dani, With SuperSic, hell with Rossi until the last lap would be more entertaining than watching him run off into the distance.
I do realise that the machinery has an impact and also know we cannot tell Stoner ( or whoever is the dominant rider ) to slow down and wait for the others to catch up to make it more fun for us all but.....
The Moto2 race was far more entertaining in the first two corners than the whole GP race. Thats the simple fact isn't it.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Yes of course closer racing is what we all like. Thats the conundrum. How do we get amazing, mind blowing prototype bikes that are extremely fast, capable of going 350 kms per hour, to march forward at exactly the same rate of progress so that there is garanteed close racing between a number of equally talented aliens who all have the perfect set-up and tyres? History indicates it happens rarely. Dumb down the bikes is about the only way like moto2. Well next year 81mm bore 4 cylinder rules are the first step to that so perhaps we're arguing for nothing.
The big question is, why should teams be FORCED to prototype an engine. If you think you can gain a worthwhile advantage from building a bespoke engine then great, but why should teams without the means to do this be unwelcome in the paddock, rather than using a commercially available and theoretically inferior engine to at least give it a shot.
Joined Feb 2008
2K Posts | 0+
home
Yes (accept for the last 7 laps). No. My emotional excitement was definitely higher during MotoGP.
The Moto2 race was good fun, as were many supersport races I have seen over the years. 125's and 250's in gp have generally produced more action-packed racing then MotoGP. Why? Same reason as why cup-races are often so close. It's because performance is extremely similar. No ...., huh? Moto2: spec-engine, only minor variations for frames; Supersport: modified 600cc street bikes, a concept where the market offers little variation (save for perhaps the triumph); 125's and 250: bikes were very much at the end of their development cycle, moreover the series were dominated by just 2 (later on even just 1) manufacturer.
I enjoy all of these classes, but none of them get me as emotionally involved as the top-class prototype series. Thankfully, I don't need to explain because Povol has taken the words out of my mouth on this subject already.
The Aragon Motogp race didn't get me jumping on my sofa as much as many other races did. But on the whole, I have seen many very exciting races this year. Every season has some more and some less thrilling races, no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater..
As Povol so rightly noted, the history of prototype motorcycle racing has mostly been about dominant bike-rider combinations. We have been lucky because for one, Honda and Yamaha usually been in close competition and because in some seasons, several bike-rider combinations converged in terms of competitiveness. Of course, the latter phenomenon is hard to realize if we keep on changing the rule book every year.
I think both me and Povol have said this before, but be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. There's is a big incentive for Dorna to intervene with the playing field to a degree that may erode what I think is the essence of the sport: best rider+best bike+some luck=win. Do we really want to incite this any further?
Jumkie, speaking for me personally, you're wrong on 2 counts: 1) for me, this has nothing to do with Stoner. I managed to enjoy the sport just fine when the Rossi-Yamaha combination was dominant, or the Lorenzo-Yamaha one, or the Hayden-Honda one... (although I have questioned Rossi's political influence, which I feel is another matter entirely) 2) I'm not an Australian.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
If say Honda tripled their budget and for the next 5 seasons fielded just one rider - who because his bike was so infinitely superior - won every race, a lot of people would not bother to watch MGP - no matter how much they say they salivate over the latest technology.
My theory (yes, I know, impossible to implement) would be rather than any control ecu, spec tire etc, would be to limit all the factories to the same budget. Were that possible, prototype racing would still exist in it's pure form, but the racing would be a lot closer, and the rider factor would take on a greater importance.
My theory (yes, I know, impossible to implement) would be rather than any control ecu, spec tire etc, would be to limit all the factories to the same budget. Were that possible, prototype racing would still exist in it's pure form, but the racing would be a lot closer, and the rider factor would take on a greater importance.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
I think it would be extremely interesting to do a little research amongst the fans to try and correlate age groups, how long they have been interested in the sport, to who is bored and who isnt. Talking about a social experiment. I think i know, but it would be interesting to see.
Close racing is good, but not at any cost. Pick 20 random guys with bike licenses from the crowd and put them on 250 honda street bikes, that will probably produce close racing. Artificially producing close racing such as by the so convenient yellow flags in nascar also devalues the contest in my view. Then I am old, as are most people with this attitude as I think povol is implying, and also recall 10 years or more of racing no more close than this year.
I think mylexicon articulates the opposing case well though. Having honda control the sport by devising increasingly arcane financially unsustainable engineering-based formulae is not good either.
I think mylexicon articulates the opposing case well though. Having honda control the sport by devising increasingly arcane financially unsustainable engineering-based formulae is not good either.
Joined Feb 2008
2K Posts | 0+
home
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I guess answering a simple question is not an easy thing to do, (which I've asked repeatedly) so we have posts that dance around (Pov, Bird, Squiz, and now Steif). Again, my friends, how would you boys like to characterize the processional racing that has become common place in the premier class? (Yes, we get you ejaculate during MotoGP, but that still doesn't make the racing any closer just because you admire one or two passes.) It seems you guys have a problem with one word, and so your reaction is to question the person's motives as either boppers or not understanding the nature of the sport (I guess only Pov & co understand it, the rest of us are hopelessly ignorant). Regarding the nature of the sport Pov, its not exactly prototype racing when they're presented with so many limitations and then spec parts to that system (but given your inability to apply logic across situations, I wouldn't expect you to understand), I guess we just have to accept your personal idea of prototype racing. So when they say you have to limit the bore and stroke, a defacto spec engine, you are ok with it, but declare Moto2 is not prototype racing because you say so. And to add, innovation in this "prototype" sport is basically non-existent since the 60s. The one last bike with the actual spirit of prototype is now going toward a non-inovative technology frame.
So again, are you guys gonna dance around the question? Or you guys gonna write another post about how you admire Stoner's smile and the solitary overtaking move in X race? Yes, we all are amazed at his riding, his honor is safe, happy? Now, can you comment on the lack of racing? Can you please give the peeps that have characterized the processional racing as "boring" another way to describe it (which you guys have done your best to pretend doesn't exist exists).
This is how Kropo characterized the racing at Aragon.: "While the first two races provided plenty of entertainment, the MotoGP race was a downright snoozer." So is he a bopper? Is he ignorant to what is "prototype racing"? Are you guys gonna repeat your posts to convince us that processional racing doesn't exist? Or maybe that we don't appreciate and admire the amazing riding by premier class riders, in particular Casey? OMG, Kropo called the racing "DOWNRIGHT SNOOZER". Isn't that like saying it "boring"? You guys have a .... fit over Curve and a few others saying the processional racing is "boring", well, go ahead, start chastising Kropo too.
Like I said, there is merit to this characterization that the racing is devoid of excitement (which you guys have been arguing against). You guys just can't get beyond the word used, but there is merit to this idea that the racing is "boring" (even though I wouldn't use that word, so please, give us a word to characterize it.) Perhaps you guys just can't? Oh please, save the 'I love the best rider on the best equipment, bla bla." The fact is not even that is happening, as we have plenty of talent sequestered on .... packages.
When speaking of the Moto2 race, Kropo said; "...produced the kind of riveting display that has turned Moto2 into the main event for many fans." I personally still get more excited in anticipation for MotoGP, but the racing in Moto2 is certainly more exciting and more riveting. After the start of a MotoGP race however, it looks eerily close to a qualifying practice.
So again, are you guys gonna dance around the question? Or you guys gonna write another post about how you admire Stoner's smile and the solitary overtaking move in X race? Yes, we all are amazed at his riding, his honor is safe, happy? Now, can you comment on the lack of racing? Can you please give the peeps that have characterized the processional racing as "boring" another way to describe it (which you guys have done your best to pretend doesn't exist exists).
This is how Kropo characterized the racing at Aragon.: "While the first two races provided plenty of entertainment, the MotoGP race was a downright snoozer." So is he a bopper? Is he ignorant to what is "prototype racing"? Are you guys gonna repeat your posts to convince us that processional racing doesn't exist? Or maybe that we don't appreciate and admire the amazing riding by premier class riders, in particular Casey? OMG, Kropo called the racing "DOWNRIGHT SNOOZER". Isn't that like saying it "boring"? You guys have a .... fit over Curve and a few others saying the processional racing is "boring", well, go ahead, start chastising Kropo too.
Like I said, there is merit to this characterization that the racing is devoid of excitement (which you guys have been arguing against). You guys just can't get beyond the word used, but there is merit to this idea that the racing is "boring" (even though I wouldn't use that word, so please, give us a word to characterize it.) Perhaps you guys just can't? Oh please, save the 'I love the best rider on the best equipment, bla bla." The fact is not even that is happening, as we have plenty of talent sequestered on .... packages.
When speaking of the Moto2 race, Kropo said; "...produced the kind of riveting display that has turned Moto2 into the main event for many fans." I personally still get more excited in anticipation for MotoGP, but the racing in Moto2 is certainly more exciting and more riveting. After the start of a MotoGP race however, it looks eerily close to a qualifying practice.
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