Aragon GP 2011: RACE

Jum, call me old fashioned as I also don't need to see 100 bikes within 10 seconds to be entertained.



But I thought that Birdy answered your question with the us of the word 'disappointing' in an earlier post.



To me, the racing is not boring but certainly to some (many even?) it could be disappointing and justifiably so.



By the way, maybe you can answer the question I asked earlier - which is essence was 'why do people see the race as boring'?



Are people judging a race as borning because there are no battles for teh lead (as to me seems to be the case) or because of a total lack of action throughout the fields (where there seems to be some action each and every race)?









Gaz

Jum,



One dictionary definition is 'having one's patience, interest, or pleasure exhausted <I was completely bored during that race>' and in that context some may find it 'boring'.



But, does that mean that I and others must find the situation boring as well?



As I said, and Birdy did respond earlier in a post - he called it disappointing and for me I can agree that many of the races may have been disappointing to some, but for me they were neither disappointing or boring. Is that wrong?



And, you have also not answered my question either - which is basically is it only boring when there are no challenges for the lead?



What you seem to have overlooked is that boring is a personal thing and often one will change their focus as situations grow (just as you have with Stoner) and what may bore one today, others may not see as boring. For me, again as I have said many times, motorcycle racing cannot and does not bore me, cause me impatience or make me want to switch off.



I guess that I just do not fit what seems to be expected nowadays as I find art in even a time trial, or maybe I should switch off because I am not a fan?



Just because my expectations or wants in a race differ from yours, it does not make you any more right than I, it just means our expectations differ













Gaz

Your asking for a better term than "bored". You put forth 'snooze fest' You interpret "failure" and "devoid of all emotion" as extreme. I'm non of these, but also genuinely interested to know what point your at. What do you want done about it? (yes and Kropo - though he's made it pretty clear on his own website).



I already said I want to scratch that itch of knowing what might happen if the riders swapped bikes. Stoner on Suzuki. Even Hayden on a Honda! I want an end of year super series of the top 8 riders doing say 4 races on each of the motogp bikes: Suzuki, Ducati, Yamaha, Honda. I would rather that to boost the excitment than more moto2 spec engines.



You see I want prototypes first, because motogp was the only series left with a true engineering competition. Next I want to know who is the best rider in the world. To determine this I want them riding the fastest bikes in the world. Finally I want close racing. That comes third.



The 'old school' and 'high horse' comes from 1991 since when I first saw a 500cc bike going around a track it totally blew me away, unlike anything I'd ever seen. I had no idea about what close racing was and didnt care at the time. Only after seeing a close race I thought wow thats icing on a great cake.

Jumkie said:

Gaz, to answer ur question. It depends who u are.



And to answer the rest of ur post, everybody can charaterize it how they want, that is MY point. A few did, and Pov & Co came on saying theyre full of .....

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No probs at all Jums as for me one of the things I enjoy most about such sites as this (and Krops etc) is that the variable viewpoints can make for interesting discussion and even better debates as each side/view try to explain (note I say explain as opposed to justify - as an opinion need not be justified)



Where I do have issues (and this has caused me to often cease posting on such sites) is where people try to force their opinion and not be prepared to accept that others may simply have a different view.



My take on this years racing is that it has been somewhat 'less exciting' (by comparison) than the MGP2 class but that to me does not make it boring because of what I look for when watching. Instead I look for many different things in a race and would be prepared to state that in all likelihood were the TV directors more willing to show mid/lower positioned riders one could see what occurs and may well have a different view as the vast majority of stated opinion (be that boring or otherwise) is drawn from the coverage we receive.



Interesting, a thought just popped into my head on that as well ...................................... could 'boring' be contributed to by the commentary being received (genuine question as well)?



Additionally, I will not be telling people who say they were bored that they were wrong to be bored, but I do genuinely ask what it is/was that bored them about the specific event (not asking now though as it has been covered - if that makes sense)



And an aside, do you ever sleep?









Gaz

For some, boring also depends on getting the result they want.

Curvey, would you be saying boring if it was Spies that checked out and won unchallenged by a big margin.

Jum, likewise if Hayden ride off in to the distance on the pig that is the Ducati, and totally against all expectation (that would deserve some massive dibs).

Do you think Talps would be so quiet if it was Rossi that won by a big margin at Aragon.

Jumkie said:

Well Gaz my friend, Bird had not answered the question, he simply asked if i was confusing two words.



Uve now joined the others in ur dislike of the WORD "bored". I get it,

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I would object to bring because a spaced out race is something i still find very interesting, but it's certainly unthrilling. I wont necessarilly be excited or on the edge of my seat. It lacks the rush of close racing. This issue is compounded by bikes which offer little in the way of visual stimulation individually, with a few exceptions like when Casey Stoner is riding.

michaelm said:

The crux for me personally which jumkie has alluded to is whether I have an emotional investment in the result. I do care who wins the premier class race, in the belief, perhaps delusional as he has pointed out , that the rider who wins that race is the best rider in the world that day. I don't care nearly as much who wins the junior classes, and didn't even when stoner was racing the 250s. For close racing I actually enjoy the world supersport class in wsbk the most, for reasons which I can't totally explain.



What I strongly believe is that there should not be artificial equalisation, and that if valentino rossi, casey stoner or whoever is 10 seconds better on the day this should not be constrained, and also that the popularity or lack thereof of the rider who is dominating should not come into consideration.



This is an entirely different discussion than whether the current hyperexpensive engineering based formula foisted on the sport mainly by the msma ie honda is a dud one that militates against close racing independent of the quality of the riders/riding for many reasons (particularly because its basis is fuel economy which makes the racing one-line); there is wide agreement cocerning that. Not withstanding all this I still think that extracting the last few percentage points of performance is as tough as it has ever been; the problem is that it becomes apparent in the first few laps how much performance can be extracted in any given race, and then doesn't change much, as valentino has said.

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I mentioned this in an earlier post. If Stoner is your man, great, you are going to be entertained, happy, orgasmic or whatever word we are allowed to use which is the opposite of the ' B ' word. Must have been the same for the Rossi crew not so long back.



Couple of points for me to finish off on:-

Think Pov wanted to start a social experiment to get a feel for forum members age and how that relates to their expectation of the sport . Here's my details:

40 Years old

First started attending racing meetings in 1971 ( MotoX ). This continues to this day ( mainly AMCA ).

First major international race meeting ( Hawkstone Park 1984 500cc World Champ MotoX round ) and it was fckin ace !

Think my first 500GP was Donington '99 and I have missed one year since

Been trying to done an oversea round of the calendar for the last five years

Attends BSB and WSBK as much as possible

Do not class myself as an expert in any way ( technically or from a knowledge point of view ), just enjoy bike racing.



Next:-

Think it was mentioned that if you watch racing to be entertained, you are not really passionate about the sport.... Bit strange. Imagine going to a restaurant where you love the way the Chef cooks and you admire his fish gutting skills, but his food tastes like .... and makes you vomit everytime you eat. Would you blame anyone for not going back ?



Next:-

We do have to remember that this sport is all the better for having entertainers. How many people would be sitting here like a bunch of saddo's with no life typing away until god know's what time in the morning if a certain Valentino Rossi had not jumped on a bike ? I know all the ' hard core ' members will be saying ' I would be on here ' and that may be true. But I remember watching GP's when there was 20,000 attending. I am not saying the actual racing was worse or better in those days ( this is not a comment about the actual racing at all ) but its much more fun when you go to Brno and there is 150,000 miling around on race day.

Entertainers bring more potential viewers, more viewers bring better TV coverage and we all get to watch the racing ( even people who are not lucky enough to attend them )

Some members might say the forum would be better without these ' new to the sport ' members who only want to be entertained, but I disagree. We were all new to something at sometime. Normally an interest in a sport or hobby comes intially from finding it fun or being entertained by it. From that comes a more indepth interest which may lead to looking at the history of the sport, or by looking into the technical aspects etc.

Without entertainers in a sport or a sport being entertaining, it slowly dies through lack of commercial interest.



I have not asked for any changes to the MotoGP format. I merely state that at present Moto2 is a better watch



On that note, this thread is becoming BORING so I am off !!!!!!



ENJOY MY FELLOW MOTORCYCLE RACING FANS !!!!!

Yeah thats the one Pov

Willski.

But the food that makes you want to vomit happens to be your girls favourite. Do you refuse to take her to the resturant? Do you demand the resturant change the menu? Conundrum. No-one is ever happy all the time. Theres no simple answer to this motogp thing.



I'm still waiting to hear peeps (Jumkie) admit what truly bothers them. Why be bored?



I'll go first. During the crushing years between 2002 and 2005 I often decided I couldnt take it anymore and refused to watch a motogp race. I convinced myself it was not worth it. I even tried to reason it was boring. I knew Rossi was going to win, so whats the point watching? I wanted Biaggi to win. He rarely did. So my memory of the 990 era is not pleasant at all. Thats right - it was miserable, the opposite of orgasmic.



.... those 990's, good riddance. But for many the 990 era was their favourite? ...., its not the 990's fault is it. The 990's were the best. The most radical, V5, I4, cube, V4. Very much a developmental period. Very much a prototype series. Imagine if we never saw 990's? Who wishes the 990's was a spec bike period? Me and Biaggi ha ha.



Rossi was simply great. He proved it on the Yamaha. I was not in fact bored, just having a hissy fit (like Biaggi). I needed to protest.



The world racing scene is in a bit of trouble atm. Supersport is in trouble. SBK is going to one bike per rider. Moto2 is spec engine. Things are bad. Dont be bored, nows the worst time. Be enthusiastic. Or miserable, but not bored. On the bright side, next year 1000's are back. Its not like no-one is listening. Only 4 more boring 800 races to go.....................................................................................

Willski said:

I mentioned this in an earlier post. If Stoner is your man, great, you are going to be entertained, happy, orgasmic or whatever word we are allowed to use which is the opposite of the ' B ' word. Must have been the same for the Rossi crew not so long back.



Couple of points for me to finish off on:-

Think Pov wanted to start a social experiment to get a feel for forum members age and how that relates to their expectation of the sport . Here's my details:

40 Years old

First started attending racing meetings in 1971 ( MotoX ). This continues to this day ( mainly AMCA ).

First major international race meeting ( Hawkstone Park 1984 500cc World Champ MotoX round ) and it was fckin ace !

Think my first 500GP was Donington '99 and I have missed one year since

Been trying to done an oversea round of the calendar for the last five years

Attends BSB and WSBK as much as possible

Do not class myself as an expert in any way ( technically or from a knowledge point of view ), just enjoy bike racing.



Next:-

Think it was mentioned that if you watch racing to be entertained, you are not really passionate about the sport.... Bit strange. Imagine going to a restaurant where you love the way the Chef cooks and you admire his fish gutting skills, but his food tastes like .... and makes you vomit everytime you eat. Would you blame anyone for not going back ?



Next:-

We do have to remember that this sport is all the better for having entertainers. How many people would be sitting here like a bunch of saddo's with no life typing away until god know's what time in the morning if a certain Valentino Rossi had not jumped on a bike ? I know all the ' hard core ' members will be saying ' I would be on here ' and that may be true. But I remember watching GP's when there was 20,000 attending. I am not saying the actual racing was worse or better in those days ( this is not a comment about the actual racing at all ) but its much more fun when you go to Brno and there is 150,000 miling around on race day.

Entertainers bring more potential viewers, more viewers bring better TV coverage and we all get to watch the racing ( even people who are not lucky enough to attend them )

Some members might say the forum would be better without these ' new to the sport ' members who only want to be entertained, but I disagree. We were all new to something at sometime. Normally an interest in a sport or hobby comes intially from finding it fun or being entertained by it. From that comes a more indepth interest which may lead to looking at the history of the sport, or by looking into the technical aspects etc.

Without entertainers in a sport or a sport being entertaining, it slowly dies through lack of commercial interest.



I have not asked for any changes to the MotoGP format. I merely state that at present Moto2 is a better watch



On that note, this thread is becoming BORING

so I am off !!!!!!



ENJOY MY FELLOW MOTORCYCLE RACING FANS !!!!!

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No disagreement with any of this ,except I perhaps didn't make my point clear. I have emotional investment in the premier class because it is the premier class, more so perhaps for shallow reasons of patriotism when an australian rider is winning, but I have never had much emotional investment in the 125s, 250s, moto 2 or whatevers regardless of whether stoner or any other australian was competitive. The premier class is the big show, reinforced in many years by riders who are/were also-rans in motogp dominating wsbk.

Is this thread still going on about "boooorrriiiinnnggg"



Get real folks the guy, "Curve" aka "Billy Ray CRYus", dresses like a village people cowboy .... nuf said!........ he and his bopper mates always have a sook whenever Stoner wins ..... its a fact of life, like "the sun will set" ..... get used to it and ignore them.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

There was a study recently that showed how many people took more enjoyment out of reading a book if they knew the ending in advance.



That said, how many times would that person re-read the same book?



It's no secret that I'm a big supporter of Stoner - but even I want to see a battle between him and other riders.

The gear-head factor is not enough to make MGP exciting or entertaining. If it were - we wouldn't need riders.

We could just have robot- bikes fighting it out. You cannot rule out the human factor. Been watching premiere

class racing since the late '70s, but if someone wants to say I'm not a real fan because I found the last race

boring, then fine. From where I stand, racing is about the riders repeatedly challenging each other and when

the the other factories are so behind that their is little or no challenge to the leader, I lose interest.

Keshav said:

We could just have robot- bikes fighting it out. You cannot rule out the human factor.

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You have an obscure view of what a Robot is.



The packrunners are the run of the mill automatons with occasional progress swapping in small steps.



The stand outs, even though referred to as Aliens these days ........exhibit real "human" behavior.



As to whether or not you lose interest ......... well good luck with that then



When has motogp ever been any different

Jumkie said:

Gaz, to answer ur question. It depends who u are.



And to answer the rest of ur post, everybody can charaterize it how they want, that is MY point. How the hell can i "overlook" my own point? The point is, A few did charaterize it as they saw fit, and Pov & Co came on saying theyre full of .....



What are ur last sentences about? No ...., thats what ive been arguing.

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I dont give a .... if your bored. If you define bored as emotionally disconnected from a certain activity, why are you on a board bitching about. If your disconnected from GP, disconnect. Why try and bring everyone else down. Some people are just natural downers that look for the .... side of everything. When i say you and your, im not speaking directly to Jumkie, just the bitchers in general. Im bored with negative people

Keshav said:

There was a study recently that showed how many people took more enjoyment out of reading a book if they knew the ending in advance.



That said, how many times would that person re-read the same book?



It's no secret that I'm a big supporter of Stoner - but even I want to see a battle between him and other riders.

The gear-head factor is not enough to make MGP exciting or entertaining. If it were - we wouldn't need riders.

We could just have robot- bikes fighting it out. You cannot rule out the human factor. Been watching premiere

class racing since the late '70s, but if someone wants to say I'm not a real fan because I found the last race

boring, then fine. From where I stand, racing is about the riders repeatedly challenging each other and when

the the other factories are so behind that their is little or no challenge to the leader, I lose interest.

Click to expand...

One problem even apart from the formula/bikes/technology etc is that except at laguna seca conditions which suit stoner ie those that suit the hard tyre and his stiff chassis set up on the honda are different than those that suit pedrosa and lorenzo, and he either wins or has to settle for 2nd or 3rd, more commonly the latter, so the potential for actual racing is between lorenzo and pedrosa, who are not really battling each other for the championship. It was a little like this with stoner/ducati/bridgestone against rossi/yamaha /michelin in 2007; they occasionally coincided, but conditions which suited one, and particularly which suited one brand of tyre, did not suit the other.



This may all change next year in terms of honda being dominant anyway since the 2012 yamaha seemed rather promising, but one aspect of rossi departing whether or not his development input is missed is that it would seem likely yamaha are less well funded; you would think they would have a naming rights sponsor, quite possibly still fiat, if rossi was there.



As lex has been arguing dorna seem to have realised that arcane heavily engineering based formulas are unsustainable and have plans to change things. I guess if they have bought out the flamminis they can revamp or combine both series particularly if ducati do go under in motogp. In the 500 days even though doohan dominated more than stoner has this year for several years at least the relative cost of the individual bikes was much less and the possibility of a larger number of talented riders getting on competitive bikes existed whether or not it occurred. As I have said previously the current top bikes seem to be like the hyperexpensive modern military aircraft where one replaces a squadron.

BarryMachine said:

You have an obscure view of what a Robot is.

The packrunners are the run of the mill automatons with occasional progress swapping in small steps.



The stand outs, even though referred to as Aliens these days ........exhibit real "human" behavior.

As to whether or not you lose interest ......... well good luck with that then

When has motogp ever been any different

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This thread has officially "jumped the shark." We now have a caveman debating about what a robot is. Please do tell us. Let me guess, would it be something like the maid from the Jetsons?