Aragon GP 2011: RACE

povol · Sep 21, 2011

Tom said:
The big question is, why should teams be FORCED to prototype an engine. If you think you can gain a worthwhile advantage from building a bespoke engine then great, but why should teams without the means to do this be unwelcome in the paddock, rather than using a commercially available and theoretically inferior engine to at least give it a shot.

Because Gp was intended to be a prototype series. Sadly that is not the case any longer. It will just be a matter of time before CRT's dominate the landscape of Gp. Then everyone can hold hands an sing kumbayah about the close spec racing. God forbid anyone win by 4-5 seconds then. The fans will be calling for equally programmed robots to make things fair, because their bored. Can you type in a whine font, if you can, the last six words were in whine.

Tom · Sep 21, 2011

Jumkie said:
I guess answering a simple question is not an easy thing to do

I think the issue is that people are resistant to the concpet of changing the sport for the sake of commercial success and viewer excitement. It's the principle isn't it, it's effectively selling out, it de-purifies/waters down the sport we love. I am guilty to feeling like that from time to time, but it might take someone more passionate and better at writing to explain objectively why this position is valuable. It certainly makes an interesting debate. I guess it's like the difference between watching WWF (or WWE or whatever it's called these days) and watching UFC.

povol said:
Because Gp was intended to be a prototype series. Sadly that is not the case any longer. It will just be a matter of time before CRT's dominate the landscape of Gp. Then everyone can hold hands an sing kumbayah about the close spec racing. God forbid anyone win by 4-5 seconds then. The fans will be calling for equally programmed robots to make things fair, because their bored. Can you type in a whine font, if you can, the last six words were in whine.

In the early days production engines and even production bikes were not rare on the entry lists. Also, don't get confused between what is fair and what is equal. Racing at the moment is fair, but it is far from equal.

povol · Sep 21, 2011

Jumkie said:
I guess answering a simple question is not an easy thing to do, (which I've asked repeatedly) so we have posts that dance around (Pov, Bird, Squiz, and now Steif). Again, my friends, how would you boys like to characterize the processional racing that has become common place in the premier class? (Yes, we get you ejaculate during MotoGP, but that still doesn't make the racing any closer just because you admire one or two passes.) It seems you guys have a problem with one word, and so your reaction is to question the person's motives as either boppers or not understanding the nature of the sport (I guess only Pov & co understand it, the rest of us are hopelessly ignorant). Regarding the nature of the sport Pov, its not exactly prototype racing when they're presented with so many limitations and then spec parts to that system (but given your inability to apply logic across situations, I wouldn't expect you to understand), I guess we just have to accept your personal idea of prototype racing. So when they say you have to limit the bore and stroke, a defacto spec engine, you are ok with it, but declare Moto2 is not prototype racing because you say so. And to add, innovation in this "prototype" sport is basically non-existent since the 60s. The one last bike with the actual spirit of prototype is now going toward a non-inovative technology frame.

So again, are you guys gonna dance around the question? Or you guys gonna write another post about how you admire Stoner's smile and the solitary overtaking move in X race? Yes, we all are amazed at his riding, his honor is safe, happy? Now, can you comment on the lack of racing? Can you please give the peeps that have characterized the processional racing as "boring" another way to describe it (which you guys have done your best to pretend doesn't exist exists).

This is how Kropo characterized the racing at Aragon.: "While the first two races provided plenty of entertainment, the MotoGP race was a downright snoozer." So is he a bopper? Is he ignorant to what is "prototype racing"? Are you guys gonna repeat your posts to convince us that processional racing doesn't exist? Or maybe that we don't appreciate and admire the amazing riding by premier class riders, in particular Casey? OMG, Kropo called the racing "DOWNRIGHT SNOOZER". Isn't that like saying it "boring"? You guys have a .... fit over Curve and a few others saying the processional racing is "boring", well, go ahead, start chastising Kropo too.

Like I said, there is merit to this characterization that the racing is devoid of excitement (which you guys have been arguing against). You guys just can't get beyond the word used, but there is merit to this idea that the racing is "boring" (even though I wouldn't use that word, so please, give us a word to characterize it.) Perhaps you guys just can't? Oh please, save the 'I love the best rider on the best equipment, bla bla." The fact is not even that is happening, as we have plenty of talent sequestered on .... packages.

When speaking of the Moto2 race, Kropo said; "...produced the kind of riveting display that has turned Moto2 into the main event for many fans." I personally still get more excited in anticipation for MotoGP, but the racing in Moto2 is certainly more exciting and more riveting. After the start of a MotoGP race however, it looks eerily close to a qualifying practice.

Ok, how about typical. You want a one word answer, there you go. Moto Gp produces TYPICAL prototype racing that some fans cant wrap their bored little heads around. Its the I want, instant gratification generation at its best. They are always bored with something,and will move on to the next fad once the coolness factor has worn off This is exactly why i said it would be interesting to gather information on GP fans. I honestly believe that a majority of fans who have picked up on GP in the last 6-10 years will disappear, with or without close racing. Something else will catch their fancy and they will vanish like a fart on a windy day

povol · Sep 21, 2011

Tom said:
I think the issue is that people are resistant to the concpet of changing the sport for the sake of commercial success and viewer excitement. It's the principle isn't it, it's effectively selling out, it de-purifies/waters down the sport we love. I am guilty to feeling like that from time to time, but it might take someone more passionate and better at writing to explain objectively why this position is valuable. It certainly makes an interesting debate. I guess it's like the difference between watching WWF (or WWE or whatever it's called these days) and watching UFC.

In the early days production engines and even production bikes were not rare on the entry lists. Also, don't get confused between what is fair and what is equal. Racing at the moment is fair, but it is far from equal.

I think that just about covers it really.

povol · Sep 21, 2011

Tom said:
I think the issue is that people are resistant to the concpet of changing the sport for the sake of commercial success and viewer excitement. It's the principle isn't it, it's effectively selling out, it de-purifies/waters down the sport we love. I am guilty to feeling like that from time to time, but it might take someone more passionate and better at writing to explain objectively why this position is valuable. It certainly makes an interesting debate. I guess it's like the difference between watching WWF (or WWE or whatever it's called these days) and watching UFC.

In the early days production engines and even production bikes were not rare on the entry lists. Also, don't get confused between what is fair and what is equal. Racing at the moment is fair, but it is far from equal.

Fair is all i ask for, .... equal. That agenda has been jammed down our throats in all aspects of life for to ....... long. Now its affecting my racing, these motherfuckers have crossed the line.

Jumkie · Sep 21, 2011

Tom Pov, thanks for the reply, as of course, it goes without saying, without the well thought out responses, this place wouldn't be as fun...I'd actually probably be quite bored. hahaha

Ah, so Pov, next time there is a processional race, can we say it was "tytpical" and you won't get upset? Ok Curve, there you go, replace the word "bored" and insert "typical" in its place, then at least one guy won't bite your head off. hehe.

Even though I'm not quite comfortable with the word "typical" because I think Moto2 is "prototype enuf" and they are very exciting.

Tom, I see your point, but I also think that the restrictions as they change them do have that element of scripting. I think the sport "sold out" a long time ago, I'd say it put this concept into hyperdrive around 2002 ish.

Oh, and the racing is far from "fair". But if that's what both of you think, I really can't argue with that, as it would take to long. So lets just agree to disagree on this point...for now.

beefsupreme · Sep 21, 2011

Tom said:
I think the issue is that people are resistant to the concpet of changing the sport for the sake of commercial success and viewer excitement.

But that's constantly happening, as the "better in the old days" crowd should well know. Whether it's unleaded fuel, 4-strokes, control tires, or 81mm bore limits, every few years it's a new set of rules (as much to make GP more relevant as to improve the show), and every few years the snobs get in a lather about how the Church of Prototype Racing should hold mass in Latin, not vernacular.

Jumkie · Sep 21, 2011

povol said:
Fair is all i ask for, .... equal. That agenda has been jammed down our throats in all aspects of life for to ....... long. Now its affecting my racing, these motherfuckers have crossed the line.

We want "fair" only when it suits us would be my guess buddy.

Tom · Sep 21, 2011

Jumkie said:
Tom, I see your point, but I also think that the restrictions as they change them do have that element of scripting. I think the sport "sold out" a long time ago, I'd say it put this concept into hyperdrive around 2002 ish.

The difference is that political and cultural (within the sport) 'scripting' happens largely in the background and very gradually, forcing close racing is a bit harder to swallow because it's right in our face. You could easily argue that the sport sold out the minute that sponsorship became a big deal, let alone the be all and end all it now is. The fact that none of us can avoid is that motogp depends 100% on it's commercial success, i blame Barry Sheene!!

I can't imagine a solution for the sports future that would satisfy fans demands for close racing, the purists demand for 'prototype' bikes, un-tampered competition and in the case of people like yourself a politically even handed sport, with privateer teams able to compete but factory teams still willing to invest. All i do know is that lex almost certainly believes he has a sound business proposal that would easily do all of that if only the entire world was willing to listen to him rather than 3-5 people on a forum

Tom · Sep 21, 2011

Beef Supreme said:
But that's constantly happening, as the "better in the old days" crowd should well know. Whether it's unleaded fuel, 4-strokes, control tires, or 81mm bore limits, every few years it's a new set of rules (as much to make GP more relevant as to improve the show), and every few years the snobs get in a lather about how the Church of Prototype Racing should hold mass in Latin, not vernacular.

Absolutely, just listen to how many people on here still go on about 990's or even 2 strokes. Control tyres is another good example, i am guilty at times and i know it.

birdman · Sep 21, 2011

Jumkie said:
I guess answering a simple question is not an easy thing to do, (which I've asked repeatedly) so we have posts that dance around (Pov, Bird, Squiz, and now Steif). Again, my friends, how would you boys like to characterize the processional racing that has become common place in the premier class?

I characterize processional racing as ............................ processional. Aragon was processional in the first two places. From third down it was not processional. Even starting 10 seconds behind, what went on with Rossi and Ducati was interesting. They hardly showed Stoner or Pedro during the telecast, they showed the on track battles. But because they were not for the lead the spectacle was a complete failure.

Unless there is a 5 way battle for the lead motogp is a failure as a spectacle and the prototypes and aliens must therefore be handicap to ensure the racing remains a 5 way battle for the lead. Honda must be punished for developing a new gearbox. A rule must be written that says thou shall not develop a seamless shift gearbox because thus gearbox produced a processional race at Aragon.

For next year I find the concept of CRT and control 1000cc 4 cylinder engines so similar to SBK I wonder how long the two can co-exist. Bye bye motogp.

povol · Sep 21, 2011

12921: ]

Mr Squiggle said:
Jumkie I love your input on this forum....really I do. But I often conjur up this mental picture of a mutant chihuahua on steroids barking its head off at everyone that dares to disagree with said chihuahuas opinions - the fact you never give an inch in a debate in which you have already decided the outcome is a somewhat admirable trait and you would make a good racer with this "never say die" mindset but it can be frustrating to get involved in an argument with you when you do go down this path.

I have never compalined about boring races at any stage of watching 500/990/800 era racing even though I agree with the priciple that the racing at present is "predictable"....I still find many things during times like this that are entertaining. I mean this year has been the most revealing I can recall in my entire time of watching the sport. So many myths have been busted this year that Adam and Jamie should do a MotoGP special at seasons end.

It has been hilarious to watch the so called GOAT fail so miserably after his arrogant statements before his arrival at Ducati. It will do Rossi the world of good IMO to eat some humble pie and this karmic justice we are now witnessing is the highlight of the season for me.....watching his fans self destruct after their constant belittling of other riders is equally hilarious and I am enjoying the shadenfraude immensely. If Stoner can win the title at Phillip sland this year justice will have been served.

And as far as arguing with Talps goes....name me a time when I WASNT arguing with Talpa. It is a favourite past time for everyone who has a balanced view of the sport. His constant cries of hypocrisy are a source of great amusement to me. He obviously has no concept of irony and his completely biased opinions and self righteous attitude have made him look like the fool he surely is - and that has also been a highlight of this season.

12921:Jumkie.jpg]

Nuts · Sep 21, 2011

Agreed, a lot of MotoGP races (but not all) are processional at the front. Sure, they would be a better specticle with close racing, definitely, but for me, boring, no - regardless of who is winning.

Boring — adj dull; repetitious; uninteresting

Come to Phillip Is. Stoner will be untouchable, and if he does not back off will win by 10+ sec, on a track that he loves, and a Honda that really works well. I am still going, and I am itching to get there, and get in to the pits to see the bikes, and park my ... around Lukey Heights to see these insane bikes drifing up over the rise, at full noise and full lean angle. If that is boring, you just don't get it.

For me, I hope Stoner wins, and I hope he wraps up the 2011 WC on his birthday at Phillip Is, but I will not be bored regardless of who wins, and whether there is close racing at the front or not.

I would challenge one of the touring party to say you were 'Bored' at Laguna. Aside from two overtakes by Stoner, the racing was pretty processional, and there was nothing like the racing you saw in Moto2 at Aragon. If there was no MotoGP, there would be no meet up at Laguna.

MotoGP is what it is. Enjoy it for what it is.

Sure, we would all like to see closer racing, and sometimes we get it, but sometimes we also get a race where the field speads out and the leader checks out, and there is no close racing. Still great to watch.

If you no longer enjoy it, stick to WSBK, or Nascar, or F1, or Indy, or whatever floats your boat.

Maybe the word you are looking for is Repetitious - and I would even dispute that

33 Coupe · Sep 21, 2011

Jumkie said:
Tom Pov, thanks for the reply, as of course, it goes without saying, without the well thought out responses, this place wouldn't be as fun...I'd actually probably be quite bored. hahaha

Ah, so Pov, next time there is a processional race, can we say it was "tytpical" and you won't get upset? Ok Curve, there you go, replace the word "bored" and insert "typical" in its place, then at least one guy won't bite your head off. hehe.

Even though I'm not quite comfortable with the word "typical" because I think Moto2 is "prototype enuf" and they are very exciting.

Tom, I see your point, but I also think that the restrictions as they change them do have that element of scripting. I think the sport "sold out" a long time ago, I'd say it put this concept into hyperdrive around 2002 ish.

Oh, and the racing is far from "fair". But if that's what both of you think, I really can't argue with that, as it would take to long. So lets just agree to disagree on this point...for now.

OK Jum, I won't get into a long winded debate with you on this topic, but i will say my piece & disappear (as usaual).

To me it sounds like Moto 2 satisfies your need for both the prototype aspect of racing as well as close racing, the only thing missing is the speed of MotoGP, which could be easily acheived through a capacity increase. By keeping this model & allowing more horsepower, ideally it should be your bike racing nirvana.

I'll come from a different angle. MotoGP has the added benefit of being able to support a manufacturer. I'm pretty sure the Ducatisti are there to support Ducati, regardless of who is riding the POS. You have rammed peeps for years over supporting Rossi, instead of supporting MotoGP as a series. If the Moto 2 model was followed (no manufacturer involvement), essentially you have created a series where there is nothing to support, except a rider. Who gives a .... (or who would even know) what manufaturer Marquez or Bradl are riding for.

The hype & anticipation the last 18 months generated by Rossi & Stoner changing factories is unprecedented in my time. During the off season, this forum operates on discussing the technical aspects of the bikes, as well as the what if's & what would happen if rider A were to ride for factory H. Would you be happy to see Powerslide degenarate into a Crash style forum where the only thing people support is a rider. By supporting a Moto 2 model for MotoGP, you would be removing the aspects which make this forum what it is, & relegating it to be a ghost town during the off season. The manufacturers are an essential part of what makes MotoGP what it is.

As for the terminology for the racing, I prefer to call it "processional", as I will never find guys holding onto a bike going 200mph boring, as long as I breath.

Jumkie · Sep 21, 2011

Beef Supreme said:
But that's constantly happening, as the "better in the old days" crowd should well know. Whether it's unleaded fuel, 4-strokes, control tires, or 81mm bore limits, every few years it's a new set of rules (as much to make GP more relevant as to improve the show), and every few years the snobs get in a lather about how the Church of Prototype Racing should hold mass in Latin, not vernacular.

One of ur best posts.

povol · Sep 21, 2011

Jumkie said:
Tom Pov, thanks for the reply, as of course, it goes without saying, without the well thought out responses, this place wouldn't be as fun...I'd actually probably be quite bored. hahaha

Ah, so Pov, next time there is a processional race, can we say it was "tytpical" and you won't get upset? Ok Curve, there you go, replace the word "bored" and insert "typical" in its place, then at least one guy won't bite your head off. hehe.

Even though I'm not quite comfortable with the word "typical" because I think Moto2 is "prototype enuf" and they are very exciting.

Tom, I see your point, but I also think that the restrictions as they change them do have that element of scripting. I think the sport "sold out" a long time ago, I'd say it put this concept into hyperdrive around 2002 ish.

Oh, and the racing is far from "fair". But if that's what both of you think, I really can't argue with that, as it would take to long. So lets just agree to disagree on this point...for now.

Those mean ole corporations again. They have more money and i cant compete, waaaa waaaa. Its not fair. A guy i work with just got a new Toyota Rock Warrior Tundra, thats not fair. Why should he get something new and i cant. My neighbor has a riding mower with a leaf vacum, how dare him, i have to rake, thats not fair. Dude, let me tell you something, life aint fair

Jumkie · Sep 21, 2011

birdman said:
I characterize processional racing as ............................ processional. Aragon was processional in the first two places. From third down it was not processional. Even starting 10 seconds behind, what went on with Rossi and Ducati was interesting. They hardly showed Stoner or Pedro during the telecast, they showed the on track battles. But because they were not for the lead the spectacle was a complete failure.

Unless there is a 5 way battle for the lead motogp is a failure as a spectacle and the prototypes and aliens must therefore be handicap to ensure the racing remains a 5 way battle for the lead. Honda must be punished for developing a new gearbox. A rule must be written that says thou shall not develop a seamless shift gearbox because thus gearbox produced a processional race at Aragon.

For next year I find the concept of CRT and control 1000cc 4 cylinder engines so similar to SBK I wonder how long the two can co-exist. Bye bye motogp.

Thanx for answering my question.

However Bird, the rest of ur post was rich. Nobody is saying the racing is a failure. So ur purpose for saying that at best was funny (sorta) and at worst...

michaelm · Sep 21, 2011

The crux for me personally which jumkie has alluded to is whether I have an emotional investment in the result. I do care who wins the premier class race, in the belief, perhaps delusional as he has pointed out , that the rider who wins that race is the best rider in the world that day. I don't care nearly as much who wins the junior classes, and didn't even when stoner was racing the 250s. For close racing I actually enjoy the world supersport class in wsbk the most, for reasons which I can't totally explain.

What I strongly believe is that there should not be artificial equalisation, and that if valentino rossi, casey stoner or whoever is 10 seconds better on the day this should not be constrained, and also that the popularity or lack thereof of the rider who is dominating should not come into consideration.

This is an entirely different discussion than whether the current hyperexpensive engineering based formula foisted on the sport mainly by the msma ie honda is a dud one that militates against close racing independent of the quality of the riders/riding for many reasons (particularly because its basis is fuel economy which makes the racing one-line); there is wide agreement cocerning that. Not withstanding all this I still think that extracting the last few percentage points of performance is as tough as it has ever been; the problem is that it becomes apparent in the first few laps how much performance can be extracted in any given race, and then doesn't change much, as valentino has said.

birdman · Sep 21, 2011

Jumkie said:
Thanx for answering my question.

However Bird, the rest of ur post was rich. Nobody is saying the racing is a failure. So ur purpose for saying that at best was funny (sorta) and at worst...

Forgot to take my medication today...........................

My idea for combining entertainment with prototype and machine development is to see each rider on a different bike at every round, meaning they all get one go on the Honda, Ducati, Yamaha, Suzuki. Its therefore a manufacturer series about bikes, not riders. We still get prototypes, and all the fans get at least one chance to see their favourite rider on the best bike. The w/c is the one who can ride all bikes fast. No more wondering how this guy would do on that bike, what if etc. It is then a completely different series from any other such as SBK.

bluegreen · Sep 21, 2011

povol said:
Because Gp was intended to be a prototype series. Sadly that is not the case any longer. It will just be a matter of time before CRT's dominate the landscape of Gp. Then everyone can hold hands an sing kumbayah about the close spec racing. God forbid anyone win by 4-5 seconds then. The fans will be calling for equally programmed robots to make things fair, because their bored. Can you type in a whine font, if you can, the last six words were in whine.

Can you explain all those Manx's?

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