'23 Portimao GP

Bern1 · Mar 29, 2023

Of course they are going to appeal!

We live in the grandest litigation era in history. Nothing is to be taken at face value, everything can be questioned, all data and opinions suspect. Depending on point of view and how much time/money is to be thrown at it. Even something as “trivial” as race penalties.

Once again, all the actors in MotoGP taking their lead from the antics in F1

Pitiful.

#22 · Mar 29, 2023

Gaz said:
Whiel to me, the penalty wording was wrong (ie. it is easy to state that teh penalty applies at the next race in which the riider competes), nope, I suspect it was the social media outcry and brand damage risks along with a few riders whining loudly and publically.

The change of penalty is about brand damage and social warriors winning to cover the original poor wording

Now for a question as if it now says next round/race - does this apply to sprint races?

less points to be impacted.

Yep - precedent has now been set yet watch the (lack of) consistency when it occurs to lesser public riders

Exactly. A lot of us never forget Sepang 2015 when race direction said, when deliberating a penalty while the race was still running, that they "Had to consider the position in the championship of the riders involved". So basically if you are fighting for a title you could kick a rider off a bike, but if you weren't, you're .......

Barbedwirebikerr said:
Repsol Honda to appeal.

Repsol Honda Team Statement on FIM penalty modification
In relation to the sanction imposed by the FIM on Marc Marquez for the race incident that occurred at the Portuguese Grand Prix, the Repsol Honda Team considers that the modification of the penalty consisted of a change of criteria on when the penalty should be applied, and that this modification was issued by the FIM two days after the initial sanction was final and definitive, is not in line with the current regulations of the FIM for the MotoGP World Championship. For this reason, the Repsol Honda Team intends to use all the means of recourse offered by the regulations in force to defend its rights and legitimate interests, which it considers violated as a result of the latest resolution adopted, and in particular has duly submitted an Appeal before the FIM Appeal Stewards.

Repsol Honda Team Statement on FIM penalty modification

motogp.hondaracingcorporation.com

Bern1 said:
Of course they are going to appeal!

We live in the grandest litigation era in history. Nothing is to be taken at face value, everything can be questioned, all data and opinions suspect. Depending on point of view and how much time/money is to be thrown at it. Even something as “trivial” as race penalties.

Once again, all the actors in MotoGP taking their lead from the antics in F1

Pitiful.

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I think they are not appealing the penalty per se, but the fact Dorna are retroactively applying a punishment based on the weight of public opinion. Ex post Facto.

What they are appealing is the fact that a rule has been retroactively changed. At the time the punishment was applied, the ruling is clear that the punishment is applied at the next race. NOT the next race the rider is present at.

Now, going forward, I absolutely agree that the wording of the rule needs to be changed. What Honda's issue is that this could be done to any other rule in the future where Dorna change a punishment outside of the wording of the regulations, retroactively.

Bern1 · Mar 29, 2023

Let the lawyering begin!

If Dorna’s rules were well thought out and applied consistently we wouldn’t be here.

Gaz · Mar 29, 2023

Bern1 said:
Of course they are going to appeal!

We live in the grandest litigation era in history. Nothing is to be taken at face value, everything can be questioned, all data and opinions suspect. Depending on point of view and how much time/money is to be thrown at it. Even something as “trivial” as race penalties.

Once again, all the actors in MotoGP taking their lead from the antics in F1

Pitiful.

They have every right to appeal and to be quite fair, would be total fools if they did not take up that right, but like #22, I suspect that if there was no change to the application of the penalty (ie. if it stood for Argentina and was not moved), then no penalty. Whomever caved to the pressure of social media and a few others regards the penalty here are to blame not Repsol who are doing that which they should.

Repsol and Marc himself accepted the double LLP when announced as impacting Argentina. At that stage, they (Marc) was planning to race it and fully accepted it. Then, the medical impact of his injury became clear and a decision was made to not race Argentina and an outcry began then voila, penalty changed.

One could well surmise that the decision for Marc to miss Argentina could have been influenced by the double LLP in the first place with a decision based on the loss of time that the penalty would cause in the race meaning the calculated loss of point from Argentina as not severe. But COTA is different, Marc owns it so the penalty that was shifted outside of the judicial process now has a greater impact to points

IMO, Repsol are doing the right thing and the point that will come will be a firmer definition of penalty applications. SOmetimes rules or impositions of such need to be challenged and then they become clearer

michaelm · Mar 29, 2023

Gaz said:
They have every right to appeal and to be quite fair, would be total fools if they did not take up that right, but like #22, I suspect that if there was no change to the application of the penalty (ie. if it stood for Argentina and was not moved), then no penalty. Whomever caved to the pressure of social media and a few others regards the penalty here are to blame not Repsol who are doing that which they should.

Repsol and Marc himself accepted the double LLP when announced as impacting Argentina. At that stage, they (Marc) was planning to race it and fully accepted it. Then, the medical impact of his injury became clear and a decision was made to not race Argentina and an outcry began then voila, penalty changed.

One could well surmise that the decision for Marc to miss Argentina could have been influenced by the double LLP in the first place with a decision based on the loss of time that the penalty would cause in the race meaning the calculated loss of point from Argentina as not severe. But COTA is different, Marc owns it so the penalty that was shifted outside of the judicial process now has a greater impact to points

IMO, Repsol are doing the right thing and the point that will come will be a firmer definition of penalty applications. SOmetimes rules or impositions of such need to be challenged and then they become clearer

If Honda are successful he would do well to avoid further incidents, as he should anyway of course, future penalties may have a tendency not to be lenient.

Gaz · Mar 29, 2023

michaelm said:
If Honda are successful he would do well to avoid further incidents, as he should anyway of course, future penalties may have a tendency not to be lenient.

Totally agree .............. on both counts

As we see from time to time across sports, one must not make a fool of the organising all powerful body, else they can make life a tad more difficult.

That said, at least at the end there should be a form of clarity as there will be a precedent either way (ie. we can change when the penalty is applied based on rider availability or the alternate a date for the application of the penalty is binding and thus the wording would need to indicate similar to 'next race in which teh rider is passed medically fit to start').

Either way, still grey areas with the sprint races and even if the line became medically fit should that apply to the entire weekend or the race?

Asking as there is potential for a real scenario of penalty applied to next race weekend but rider injures themselves in practice and is passed medically unfit to race. The implementation of the penalty needs to be clarified and hopefully we get closer

p4p1 · Mar 29, 2023

My opinion on this is simple. The injury sustained in the crash has resulted in a penalty worse than the one DORNA handed down. Marquez’s mistake not only cost him points for Portimao but also the entire Argentina weekend. So I’m just not sure what the point is of another penalty, not just for this case but for any case. I worry that it will be come over regulated and not allow for any mistakes.

mikesbytes · Mar 30, 2023

Simon Crafer see's MM's crash as irresponsible and the penalty is too light

mikesbytes · Mar 30, 2023

Based on the injury rate, the grid mid season;
Pirro
Stoner (brought back from retirement)
Folger
Pedrosa
Kallio
Bradl
Crutchlow
Salivdori
Guintoli (cos they ran out of people to bring back)
Smith (they are desperate)
[insert some Japanese names]

Oh I forgot to mention Lorenzo

Gaz · Mar 30, 2023

Kind of............

The video he states Long Lap penalty and is talking before any penalty was applied.

Instead he wanted a start from pitlane which would not equal a double LLP (LLp = approx 5 seconds, Double LLP = 10, pitlane start is around 5 as they cannot leave the pit lane until teh last rider is past). In the end, MM got a harsher penalty that Crafar expected - which in many ways indicates the lack of consistency

mikesbytes · Mar 30, 2023

Gaz said:
Kind of............

The video he states Long Lap penalty and is talking before any penalty was applied.

Instead he wanted a start from pitlane which would not equal a double LLP (LLp = approx 5 seconds, Double LLP = 10, pitlane start is around 5 as they cannot leave the pit lane until teh last rider is past). In the end, MM got a harsher penalty that Crafar expected - which in many ways indicates the lack of consistency

View attachment 13391

If Zarco gets a long lap penalty then M Marquez could follow him thru

#22 · Mar 30, 2023

There seems to be two topics of conversation here.

1. The discussion on whether Marquez' penalty was too light, or too severe
2. The discussion on the Honda appeal (i.e. the FIM wording of the penalty and whether the penalty is to be served in the next race, or Marc's next race)

For the first point.
Many people are saying Marc was out of line, he was irresponsible etc. Is this because they expect better of an 8 time champion or something else? I was listening to a podcast last night (more on that later) and they went through the number of penalties handed out in MotoGP since this system was introduced and I think there was 4, that fell under the scenario of if a rider served them at THEIR next race because of injury.
Interestingly, they pointed out a number of times in the same period that riders have received no penalty at all. Aside from Marini last Saturday, they also noted Nakagami's crash in 2022 at Barcelona when he wiped out 3 other riders at the start, and likewise at the same track in 2019 when Lorenzo took out basically all of his team mates championship challengers bar Dovi. Again, no penalty was applied.
So, I'm asking myself, why so many people are really raging about this? Is it because they hold Marc to a higher standard? There wasn't the outrage after Lorenzo in 2019, Nakagami in 2022 or Luca Marini last Saturday.

Secondly, regarding the penalty. The podcast I was listening to last night (The Race) made a note that when they asked FIM specifically if the penalty applied at the next race, the confirmed that the penalty was to be applied at the Argentine GP. Word for word in their statement.

FIM ...... up, simply. And they are trying to make Honda out to be the bad guys.

moto vudu · Mar 30, 2023

Marc has a long history of endangering other riders on track. He deserves a harsh punishment compared to other riders who aren't as reckless. He was riding past the limit and endangering others at Jerez 2020 before he highsided himself into the hospital. He was once again, out of control and was only lucky that he was the only one who suffered. He won't stop until he causes serious injury to himself or someone else... then he'll play victim.

Bern1 · Mar 30, 2023

#22 said:
FIM ...... up, simply. And they are trying to make Honda out to be the bad guys.

Yes.

In the big picture, I see the problem as being that of the governing body. In an attempt to make the racing more “fair”, (which is actually code for more tightly competitive, in order to enhance viewership, attendance and revenue) they have introduced myriad rules, both technical for the machinery and of conduct for the riders. Then they have continued to tweak them. One of the results of this is that its very difficult or almost impossible to know really what the rules actually are or how they will be applied. This is the same problem that F1 has had and is having.

The rules have not been well thought out or consistently applied, which has led to an eroding respect for the governing body on the part of the riders and fans.

Not to turn this political, but it is actually very similar to many countries’ laws and their application.

Many many times in racing for the last hundred years people have been taken out by their competitors. They were called racing incidents. That’s what this was. Sometimes the result is fair and sometimes it isn’t. Just like most of life.

MichaelBolton · Mar 30, 2023

#22 said:
The podcast I was listening to last night (The Race)

Speaking of which, the commenters in that site were lambasting Honda for being "tone-deaf" by recurring the penalty... apparently everything must be subjected to mob rule now, laws be damned. Since we're a it, why not decide the champion by popular vote at the beginning of the season? racing is just another protocol that gets in the way of pleasing the crowd.

#22 · Mar 30, 2023

moto vudu said:
Marc has a long history of endangering other riders on track. He deserves a harsh punishment compared to other riders who aren't as reckless. He was riding past the limit and endangering others at Jerez 2020 before he highsided himself into the hospital. He was once again, out of control and was only lucky that he was the only one who suffered. He won't stop until he causes serious injury to himself or someone else... then he'll play victim.

I agree that Marc has had more contreversies/collisions than many other riders, but I think it is far fetched to class that as 'endangering other riders on track'. Like Nicky Hayden said, 'It ain't Fishin!'

Jerez 2020, he 'crashed' out of the lead when he lost the front. Then, until his highside 2 laps from home, his race was very clean with nothing but fair passes as I recall. Even he admits that, at that point in the race, he had settled for second and wasn't pushing as hard as he had been. So for you to claim he was 'out of control is not supported by the facts.

Aside from Argentina 2018 when he had a very clumsy race, I don't recall the last time since 2015 where he was involved in any major incident. 2015 did seem to calm him down and his 2016-2019 years were the epitome of a calmed rider. He finsihed every race but 1 in 2019 on the podium.

Bern1 said:
Yes.

In the big picture, I see the problem as being that of the governing body. In an attempt to make the racing more “fair”, (which is actually code for more tightly competitive, in order to enhance viewership, attendance and revenue) they have introduced myriad rules, both technical for the machinery and of conduct for the riders. Then they have continued to tweak them. One of the results of this is that its very difficult or almost impossible to know really what the rules actually are or how they will be applied. This is the same problem that F1 has had and is having.

The rules have not been well thought out or consistently applied, which has led to an eroding respect for the governing body on the part of the riders and fans.

Not to turn this political, but it is actually very similar to many countries’ laws and their application.

Many many times in racing for the last hundred years people have been taken out by their competitors. They were called racing incidents. That’s what this was. Sometimes the result is fair and sometimes it isn’t. Just like most of life.

Unfortunately, any top level sport is political. I find it ironinc they are so strict on riders conduct when they can't even get track safety acceptable (Portimao Turn 10, ...... gravel and until Saturday, no air fence)

MichaelBolton said:
Speaking of which, the commenters in that site were lambasting Honda for being "tone-deaf" by recurring the penalty... apparently everything must be subjected to mob rule now, laws be damned. Since we're a it, why not decide the champion by popular vote at the beginning of the season? racing is just another protocol that gets in the way of pleasing the crowd.

It was the first MotoGP Podcast from the Race I've listened to (I usually listen to Bring Back V10's on their channel) and I know Simon Patterson doesn't have a great reputation but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Funny enough, some time ago my wife said 'Why doesn't Rossi just ride around on his own and they give him the winners trophy?'

Sadly, that would be a wet dream for the Valeban.

michaelm · Mar 30, 2023

Riding around on his own in the last few races of 2015 to win the 8th/10th title which he considered to be his due seemed to be pretty much the plan for Rossi.

Imo PI 2015 taught MM he could win by a different method than dominating the whole race. That bike was horrible with a full tank of fuel hence all the early race crashes, he would have won I believe if he had kept the positions from which he crashed out.

My theory has always been that he decided by his own lights to not interfere with the contending riders, then took his chance when the bike came to him late race.

#22 · Mar 30, 2023

Good points. I think he was over a second faster than Lorenzo on that final lap in PI. Quite amazing.

misfit · Mar 30, 2023

MM agrees with the penalty that he received. He agreed with the stewards ruling and so did Honda. I think this significant and points to it not just being a simple racing incident and perhaps an unacceptable standard of error on MM's part or any other rider's part for that matter. I don't see where this is necessarily about Marc perse and it's so easy to make this claim.

Even before the news of his missing the Argentina race, there was discussion about the severity of the punishment and from my reading, it was the maximum punishment allowed by the rules and precedent, implying that more severe punishment was, in fact, considered. Now that he is missing Argentina, I can now see why they would now maintain that he would have to serve the penalty at the next event he participates.

There can be no rules to cover such incidents objectively. They are all different and require judgement on the part of stewards. Yes, biases may colour rulings/decisions/verdicts, but it's even worse for fans, myself included, when there's no responsibility other that warming one's sofa and cheering.

Dynamohum · Mar 30, 2023

What does MM say about his on track ‘personality’?

MD Opinion: Marc Marquez Continues to Damage the Honda Brand - MotorcycleDaily.com - Motorcycle News, Editorials, Product Reviews and Bike Reviews

I believe Marc Marquez. I believe we should all trust his self assessment. Marquez says that, as a race competitor he is both an “.......” (at 19 seconds in the video here) and a “.......” (at 40 seconds in the video here). Professional racers are aggressive, by nature, and this may be a...

www.motorcycledaily.com

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'23 Portimao GP

Bern1

#22

Repsol Honda Team Statement on FIM penalty modification

Repsol Honda Team Statement on FIM penalty modification

Bern1

Gaz

michaelm

Gaz

p4p1

mikesbytes

mikesbytes

Gaz

mikesbytes

#22

moto vudu

Bern1

MichaelBolton

#22

michaelm

#22

misfit

Dynamohum

MD Opinion: Marc Marquez Continues to Damage the Honda Brand - MotorcycleDaily.com - Motorcycle News, Editorials, Product Reviews and Bike Reviews

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