'23 Portimao GP

I've been busy lately blacklisting many stupid sites with such dumb reactionary takes, so thanks.

Dynamohum said:

What does MM say about his on track ‘personality’?

MD Opinion: Marc Marquez Continues to Damage the Honda Brand - MotorcycleDaily.com - Motorcycle News, Editorials, Product Reviews and Bike Reviews

I believe Marc Marquez. I believe we should all trust his self assessment. Marquez says that, as a race competitor he is both an “.......” (at 19 seconds in the video here) and a “.......” (at 40 seconds in the video here). Professional racers are aggressive, by nature, and this may be a...

www.motorcycledaily.com

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I think this is all a sign of the times. Kenny Roberts was an ....... and a ....... too. But according to him, nice guy Freddie Spencer ran him off the track in that one race deciding the championship.

In F1, racing got leaner and meaner with the advent of Senna, undoubtedly a ....... who indeed ran people off the track. After that, the gates were open. Schumacher followed, also a ....... who ran people off the track. I haven’t really followed the sport during his tenure, I’ve heard it said that Hamilton has accrued some of his success in the same way.

Now MotoGP has its ....... poster child as well.

Some my commentary here is tongue in cheek, but it can be argued that this kind of behavior is due to the era we live in.

Kanye West, a certain ex US president, etc. etc.

However, I cannot see that MM’s comments in his documentary damage Honda in any way. Honda the company has been an ....... in how they have managed their teams in both F1 and 500/MotoGP. I will argue that current team manager Puig is an ....... himself.

Most people don’t really care. Last weekend, a few people in Portugal got upset.

Some riders may care. Martin said “it wasn’t the first time.” To the extent that other riders may thing twice about passing MM, you can both say that his assholeness is working and that it has no place in the sport.

MichaelBolton said:

Speaking of which, the commenters in that site were lambasting Honda for being "tone-deaf" by recurring the penalty... apparently everything must be subjected to mob rule now, laws be damned. Since we're a it, why not decide the champion by popular vote at the beginning of the season? racing is just another protocol that gets in the way of pleasing the crowd.

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I suspect a rider's comeback for title 10

Sadly however, yes it does seem that the social media warriors caused brand damage concerns and someone flinched andn ow we have the significant mess.

#22 said:

I agree that Marc has had more contreversies/collisions than many other riders, but I think it is far fetched to class that as 'endangering other riders on track'. Like Nicky Hayden said, 'It ain't Fishin!'

Jerez 2020, he 'crashed' out of the lead when he lost the front. Then, until his highside 2 laps from home, his race was very clean with nothing but fair passes as I recall. Even he admits that, at that point in the race, he had settled for second and wasn't pushing as hard as he had been. So for you to claim he was 'out of control is not supported by the facts.

Aside from Argentina 2018 when he had a very clumsy race, I don't recall the last time since 2015 where he was involved in any major incident. 2015 did seem to calm him down and his 2016-2019 years were the epitome of a calmed rider. He finsihed every race but 1 in 2019 on the podium.


Unfortunately, any top level sport is political. I find it ironinc they are so strict on riders conduct when they can't even get track safety acceptable (Portimao Turn 10, ...... gravel and until Saturday, no air fence)



It was the first MotoGP Podcast from the Race I've listened to (I usually listen to Bring Back V10's on their channel) and I know Simon Patterson doesn't have a great reputation but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Funny enough, some time ago my wife said 'Why doesn't Rossi just ride around on his own and they give him the winners trophy?'

Sadly, that would be a wet dream for the Valeban.

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You said it in your earlier post but yes, people want to hold MM to a higher standard (unfairly) given he has the experience and titles, and my brain also says because of whom he thoroughly dethroned and whom still has social influence.

IMO, yes MM f*ucks up and crashes but not that much more or less than many many others but he is extremely high profile and thus he gets media attention and many of these same media prefer different colours (riders and teams). For me, he is not what I would call a 'clean skin' rider but to achieve that which he has he needs to have the instinct of taking risks, pushing boundaries and he does that, rarely outside any rules but occasionally into a gray area between carelessness and reckless abandon. He does nto intentionally try to contact riders which we have seen a few over the years do and have even heard riders state that is how they need to ride at times.

As for your wife, smart lady. My wife has been saying the same kind of thing for years and she is not a bike racing fan

misfit said:

MM agrees with the penalty that he received. He agreed with the stewards ruling and so did Honda. I think this significant and points to it not just being a simple racing incident and perhaps an unacceptable standard of error on MM's part or any other rider's part for that matter. I don't see where this is necessarily about Marc perse and it's so easy to make this claim.

Even before the news of his missing the Argentina race, there was discussion about the severity of the punishment and from my reading, it was the maximum punishment allowed by the rules and precedent, implying that more severe punishment was, in fact, considered. Now that he is missing Argentina, I can now see why they would now maintain that he would have to serve the penalty at the next event he participates.

There can be no rules to cover such incidents objectively. They are all different and require judgement on the part of stewards. Yes, biases may colour rulings/decisions/verdicts, but it's even worse for fans, myself included, when there's no responsibility other that warming one's sofa and cheering.

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MM always stated he f*cked up.

He said siomething went wrong with the bike, and then changedt hat to the front lockup that is borne out by the side video.

Acceptance of a penalty does not however imply anything more, but it does imply acceptance of responsibility for outcomes (teh crash) andt hat is what I read into it.

I would like to point out that the same people calling for his blood are more or less the same people who called Lorenzo a moaner when Marquez replicated Rossi's Gibernau pass at Jerez, called Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa ....... or something along those lines when they spoke out about Simoncelli's riding style etc. Marquez himself has been taken out by other riders who were over exuberant.

That doesn't mean that Marquez (and others) shouldn't temper their riding but IMO (and I know others have said this), but they have been encouraged by the fans and the media to ride like this. I'm not going to apportion all the blame to Rossi here, but the media and the series made villains of anybody who questioned him or called him out for moves they believed were dangerous etc. The media and fans created a space where hitting riders, going for dangerous passes and relying on the other riders to take avoiding action and moves that resulted in riders crashing (provided they were the correct riders of course) were championed as hard racing. So what happens is the next generation see that and says well if this is OK sometimes then it should be OK most of the time. We are now at a point where the commentators and fans alike will say 'rubbing is racing' which from my understanding has not previously been acceptable in motorcycle racing. 'Rubbing' essentially requires the rider on the outside to cede position to the inside rider to stop crashing out themselves or both riders, even if they are in the position where the inside rider should be the one who gives position. That has IMO created not just confusion amongst fans but confusion among riders, particularly the young ones. The goal posts move so often I don't think anyone knows what is right or wrong half the time and decisions or outcry from fans etc are based solely on emotion and who is involved.

Argentina 2018 is a great example IMO of the issues that I am outlining. From the start. Jack Miller was screwed over because the rules as they stood, which were admittedly obeyed, did not allow for every single rider deciding to change tyres after the warm up lap. Safety obviously comes first but something needed to be implemented to give Jack the advantage he deserved. IE 2 green lights. One for Jack, and one for the others who should have been starting from pit lane. The rules did not allow for all but one rider changing tyres after the warm up lap but paid and experienced professionals should have seen this one coming.
The huge gap between Jack and the rest of the field meant that Marquez was able to push start his bike and then rode backwards on the grid. Now while I don't believe that was unsafe in the conditions it happened in, It is a rule so Marquez should have been made to start from pit lane. Instead, for whatever reason the stewards gave it the green light at the time and the race went ahead. So the rules were not enforced in the way they should have been. Later of course Marquez gets a ride through penalty for riding backwards on the grid. A much bigger penalty that the one that he would have been given if it was not for the incompetence of the race direction. They either had to let him get away with it or pull him off the grid and start him in pitlane. I don't blame Marquez here, he did what he is paid to do, he tried to get going without imposing a penalty on himself. It is not his job to penalize himself, it is race directions job to do that, at the time of the infringement.
Marquez's pace that day was unbelievable, so he gets to the front and then gets the ride through penalty. He is understandably pissed off, that is his own issue that he needs to manage. However, he was a second plus a lap quicker than anyone else on the field in a wettish race, IIRC it was about a second a lap than the leading group but more further back obviously. So in the name of 'safety' DORNA has then put a rider to the back of the grid, in tricky conditions that has a monumental speed difference with everyone else on the track. This happened because DORNA failed to follow their own rules and failed to pull him off the grid. Personally, as a fan of the sport, I would prefer to see anyone given a reasonable chance to get their bike re-started (say 20-30 seconds). I don't want to see riders have to start from pitlane for something that is likely not their fault.
Blind Freddy could see that the speed difference plus Marquez's red mist were going to make for a dangerous combination. Marquez hit a few riders on the way through and those were IMO worse than his final contact with Rossi and those are more or less indefensible. Onboard footage showed a clear gap, Marquez being Marquez was always going to go for it but the speed difference did make it harder to judge. Rossi being Rossi was never going to give the position to Marquez. At the time of contact, Marquez is both in front and on the inside, all Rossi has to is pick up his bike like he has expected many others to do through the years.
I would argue similarities to Assen 2016 where Rossi knew he was going to be passed at the final corner but knew any contact could give him reason enough to go straight through the corner. But this is also where IMO it gets confusing for everyone, especially me. In Assen Marquez was on the inside but Rossi was just in front. Now common sense says to me that regardless of being in front by a bees .... or not, if someone is already occupying the space you want then in racing conditions that is their space. This isn't always the case IE if you're half a bike or more in front you can and should reasonably expect that the rider behind you will allow you into that space. But here we were talking centimeters. So according to the ruling, the media and fans etc. The bike in front regardless of how much they are in front by has right of way in this situation. Except when they don't of course, which happens all the time and is why we see guys pick their bikes up to avoid crashes during hard passes that are deemed fair. There isn't a clear definition of when you have to be in front by for it to be 'your' corner either. It's certainly not at the moment of the bike tipping in, you could argue it is at the apex but the problem with that is for both riders tipping in on the inside or outside, they do not know without a shadow of doubt that their bike will be in front at the apex. The arguments of this guy was in front at the moment they hit each other is done with stills and/or slow motion when it is a line ball decision. Whether in front of not the rider on the outside often picks up their bike because A they're not keen on the contact because it probably hurts and B they know they will likely be the one who crashes, meaning they are aware they are in the inferior position. In Assen 2016 Rossi did not know for sure that he was in front when they came together. What he did know though was that he could get away with riding through the gravel trap flat out, while Marquez had to go around the turns.
Now we go back to Argentina 2018, Marquez went for a gap that was there, on a rider who knew he was coming and who also knew was far quicker than him. We all know what happened, but the stills that were used to justify Rossi's win in Assen 2016 showed that Marquez was both in front and on the inside. But now that didn't matter at all. Marquez should have known that was Rossi's corner regardless of if his corner speed and later braking was going to have him at the front at the apex and regardless of the fact that all Rossi had to do was pick up his bike like we have seen everyone else, including Marquez do from time to time.
So the emotion is then what comes to the front and decides that Marquez should receive the penalty for that clash. As a matter of fact, the penalty imposed on Marquez for what was a racing incident is harsher than the penalty imposed on Rossi the year before when he with malice, slowed down and punted another rider off the track. Of course the rules have changed since then and it has been argued that the rules were different from 2015 to 2016, hence the difference in penalties. The rules have certainly changed since 2016 until now and that is fine. But as pointed out above me the rulings still aren't consistent, nor are they clear.

It is not clear whether penalties are decided on the intent or outcome or potential outcome. Marini makes a purposeful overtaking move on Bastia which broke his shoulder. Marini did not mean to lose the front but it happened. Marquez did not intend to overtake Oliveira but due to both his mistakes and misjudgment he did take him out in what could have been worse for both riders. Marquez is punished, Marini isn't. I'm not saying Marini should be punished, but both the intent to overtake was there and the outcome was worse but there is no penalty. But the emotion involving Marquez is much higher and again he is being punished based solely on emotion and his profile compared to others. So where is the line? What is taken into consideration when dishing out punishments because I for one really am not sure.

PS - Penalties should be at the very next GP on the calendar, not the next one you compete in. Missing races because of an injury is punishment enough to your championship chances.

Marquez’s strategy for 2023 should be to consistently shoot for 3rd place without trying overmuch to out-ride the bike’s capacity. Between the injuries sure to be sustained in the sprints and crashes on over-inflated tires compounded by the extra downforce from all the aero, he probably wouldn’t have many competitors by season’s end.

If I were him, I have his lawyers insist on a new rider for his contract to the effect that he be able to walk away from his contract and go ride for Ducati if the bike still sucks at the end of the year. There must be somewhere in his contract where HRC in some fashion implies that they have an obligation to provide him with the best possible quality bike. His lawyers could sue HRC for Bad Faith.

Perhaps its not possible for Honda/Yamaha to make a competitive bike with the rules in place...the ecu and tires specifically.

I think with just a bike that doesn't try to kill him would be enough, even if it's not fast enough. Hopefully the coming Kalex chassis will make the bike more rideable.

MM will not be able to keep from over riding any bike he has.

MichaelBolton said:

I've been busy lately blacklisting many stupid sites with such dumb reactionary takes, so thanks.

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I recently logged back into the comments section for Motorsport.com, only to log out shortly after. Total cesspit of Rossi lovers.

Bern1 said:

I think this is all a sign of the times. Kenny Roberts was an ....... and a ....... too. But according to him, nice guy Freddie Spencer ran him off the track in that one race deciding the championship.

In F1, racing got leaner and meaner with the advent of Senna, undoubtedly a ....... who indeed ran people off the track. After that, the gates were open. Schumacher followed, also a ....... who ran people off the track. I haven’t really followed the sport during his tenure, I’ve heard it said that Hamilton has accrued some of his success in the same way.

Now MotoGP has its ....... poster child as well.

Some my commentary here is tongue in cheek, but it can be argued that this kind of behavior is due to the era we live in.

Kanye West, a certain ex US president, etc. etc.

However, I cannot see that MM’s comments in his documentary damage Honda in any way. Honda the company has been an ....... in how they have managed their teams in both F1 and 500/MotoGP. I will argue that current team manager Puig is an ....... himself.

Most people don’t really care. Last weekend, a few people in Portugal got upset.

Some riders may care. Martin said “it wasn’t the first time.” To the extent that other riders may thing twice about passing MM, you can both say that his assholeness is working and that it has no place in the sport.

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Hit the nail on the head, it's all about setting a precedent.

When Casey Stoner, arguably one of the cleaner champions, noted the aggresiveness of Rossi's moves (some of which were off camera apparently) in 'Guna 2008, he was lambasted by fans and the media alike ("This is Racing Casey"). Journalists applauded his racing style, aggressively repassing riders and disturbing their rhythm.

Then, when Marc Marquez joins the grid and rides like the rider he grew up watching and idolising, they do the surprised pikachu face. It's fine for Rossi to do it, but not for anyone else. Same with 2005 and 2013. Marc replicated Rossi's move on Gibernau and why not? Rossi wasn't punished for it, and in fact he was praised for it by a lot of the media (who blamed Gibernau for 'leaving the door open'

I remember driver briefings at kart tracks when I was a kid. Race control would, for example, say 'not kerb hopping, stay off the kerbs in the esses' at a track where kerb hopping gained considerable lap time but alsop damaged karts. First response was 'Why not? they do it in F1'. It was not penalised in F1, and we later saw drivers taking the absolute piss out of track limits and not getting any sanctions.

If you allow behaviour in any top level sport, younger generations are going to use that behaviour if it makes them win. If there is no place for that behaviour (or assholeness as you term it), then it should be penalised accordingly. It's like these big businesses that commit a crime and have a fine that in many times lower than the profit they made from said criminal behaviour, often termed 'the cost of doing business'.
Honestly, I'm not sure why they ditched the points system. It seemed to work for repeat offenders.

Gaz said:

I suspect a rider's comeback for title 10

Sadly however, yes it does seem that the social media warriors caused brand damage concerns and someone flinched andn ow we have the significant mess.



You said it in your earlier post but yes, people want to hold MM to a higher standard (unfairly) given he has the experience and titles, and my brain also says because of whom he thoroughly dethroned and whom still has social influence.

IMO, yes MM f*ucks up and crashes but not that much more or less than many many others but he is extremely high profile and thus he gets media attention and many of these same media prefer different colours (riders and teams). For me, he is not what I would call a 'clean skin' rider but to achieve that which he has he needs to have the instinct of taking risks, pushing boundaries and he does that, rarely outside any rules but occasionally into a gray area between carelessness and reckless abandon. He does nto intentionally try to contact riders which we have seen a few over the years do and have even heard riders state that is how they need to ride at times.

As for your wife, smart lady. My wife has been saying the same kind of thing for years and she is not a bike racing fan



MM always stated he f*cked up.

He said siomething went wrong with the bike, and then changedt hat to the front lockup that is borne out by the side video.

Acceptance of a penalty does not however imply anything more, but it does imply acceptance of responsibility for outcomes (teh crash) andt hat is what I read into it.

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I have said this for a long time. I believe that, while he will never admit it to anyone outside his trusted circle, he wants to get 10 titles to beat Rossi. That's his motivator.

It's amazing how many people try to say Marini's crash was different to Marquez. The only difference was Marc managed to catch his bike before it low sided, then sadly he had not room to bring it under control.

p4p1 said:

I would like to point out that the same people calling for his blood are more or less the same people who called Lorenzo a moaner when Marquez replicated Rossi's Gibernau pass at Jerez, called Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa ....... or something along those lines when they spoke out about Simoncelli's riding style etc. Marquez himself has been taken out by other riders who were over exuberant.

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Exactly. I recall saying it here but remember that press conference in early/mid 2011 when Lorenzo was arguing with Simoncelli? The press were siding with Marco and goading Lorenzo, culminating in the 'I'll be arrested' line. Lorenzo then pointed out that this isn;t minibikes, the riders are not there for our comedic entertainment and if Marco carried on like that, someone was going to get hurt.

Months later, they were no longer ....... laughing when Lorenzo was proven right.

That doesn't mean that Marquez (and others) shouldn't temper their riding but IMO (and I know others have said this), but they have been encouraged by the fans and the media to ride like this. I'm not going to apportion all the blame to Rossi here, but the media and the series made villains of anybody who questioned him or called him out for moves they believed were dangerous etc. The media and fans created a space where hitting riders, going for dangerous passes and relying on the other riders to take avoiding action and moves that resulted in riders crashing (provided they were the correct riders of course) were championed as hard racing. So what happens is the next generation see that and says well if this is OK sometimes then it should be OK most of the time. We are now at a point where the commentators and fans alike will say 'rubbing is racing' which from my understanding has not previously been acceptable in motorcycle racing. 'Rubbing' essentially requires the rider on the outside to cede position to the inside rider to stop crashing out themselves or both riders, even if they are in the position where the inside rider should be the one who gives position. That has IMO created not just confusion amongst fans but confusion among riders, particularly the young ones. The goal posts move so often I don't think anyone knows what is right or wrong half the time and decisions or outcry from fans etc are based solely on emotion and who is involved.

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I read your post in detail only after my response above but we are exactly on the same page. Punishments are often decided it seems based on the riders stature.

It is not clear whether penalties are decided on the intent or outcome or potential outcome. Marini makes a purposeful overtaking move on Bastia which broke his shoulder. Marini did not mean to lose the front but it happened. Marquez did not intend to overtake Oliveira but due to both his mistakes and misjudgment he did take him out in what could have been worse for both riders. Marquez is punished, Marini isn't. I'm not saying Marini should be punished, but both the intent to overtake was there and the outcome was worse but there is no penalty. But the emotion involving Marquez is much higher and again he is being punished based solely on emotion and his profile compared to others. So where is the line? What is taken into consideration when dishing out punishments because I for one really am not sure.

PS - Penalties should be at the very next GP on the calendar, not the next one you compete in. Missing races because of an injury is punishment enough to your championship chances.

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You make a good point about emotion deciding the penalty which explains why they are so inconsistent.

And finally, yes. It is like Joan Mir getting a penalty (and Fabio last yr at assen). The crashes themselves ARE the punishment.

Keshav said:

Marquez’s strategy for 2023 should be to consistently shoot for 3rd place without trying overmuch to out-ride the bike’s capacity. Between the injuries sure to be sustained in the sprints and crashes on over-inflated tires compounded by the extra downforce from all the aero, he probably wouldn’t have many competitors by season’s end.

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I don't disagree, but that isn't his style

If I were him, I have his lawyers insist on a new rider for his contract to the effect that he be able to walk away from his contract and go ride for Ducati if the bike still sucks at the end of the year. There must be somewhere in his contract where HRC in some fashion implies that they have an obligation to provide him with the best possible quality bike. His lawyers could sue HRC for Bad Faith.

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Marquez is more then well off enough to buy himself out of his contract should he want to leave at the end of 23. Like Senna, who famously offered to drive for free for Williams in 1993, I can see him chasing results more than money as time goes on.

I honestly think the Ducati door is closed. They have plenty of riders for the factory team and they know they now have the best bike. I personally see him going to KTM if he still wants Red Bull money, or Aprilia if a Senna situation like I mentioned above becomes apparent. Aleix has already said he wont race beyond 2024 when his current contract ends, so I can see him getting outed a year early if Aprilia had the chance to have Marc on their bike.

Mrpurple said:

Perhaps its not possible for Honda/Yamaha to make a competitive bike with the rules in place...the ecu and tires specifically.

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The exact same situation Ducati were in 10 years ago. It just takes time.

MichaelBolton said:

I think with just a bike that doesn't try to kill him would be enough, even if it's not fast enough. Hopefully the coming Kalex chassis will make the bike more rideable.

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He got the bike on pole with no other Honda in Q2, like you said he just needs a sniff.

Bern1 said:

MM will not be able to keep from over riding any bike he has.

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It would be nice for him to have a bike he doesnt have to over ride to see if that bears fruit.

Yes, we have witnessed motorcycle racing ratchet up the stakes to become more “entertaining.” Nascarisation of the sport thanks to Rossi and the like has brought about the new generation of riders brought up on video games. Who apparently think traction control, Airfence and neck halos make them invincible. At the same time the rules making idiots try to equalize everything.

Look, we have just spent all week discussing this penalty issue.

When Rossi was allowed to cut the corner and ride by Stoner in the dirt downhill from the corkscrew to pass with no penalty, I knew it was over. It’s taken a while but since then things have only gone downhill with respect to playing favorites or artificially closing up the field tbhrough rules, etc.

Truly cringeworthy.

Yet I still watch……

"He got the bike on pole with no other Honda in Q2, like you said he just needs a sniff."

Only because of the tow...

Bern1 said:

Yes, we have witnessed motorcycle racing ratchet up the stakes to become more “entertaining.” Nascarisation of the sport thanks to Rossi and the like has brought about the new generation of riders brought up on video games. Who apparently think traction control, Airfence and neck halos make them invincible. At the same time the rules making idiots try to equalize everything.

Look, we have just spent all week discussing this penalty issue.

When Rossi was allowed to cut the corner and ride by Stoner in the dirt downhill from the corkscrew to pass with no penalty, I knew it was over. It’s taken a while but since then things have only gone downhill with respect to playing favorites or artificially closing up the field tbhrough rules, etc.

Truly cringeworthy.

Yet I still watch……

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I have never been sure about the rule at the time in regard to the Corkscrew, it was certainly illegal when MM repeated it with Rossi but both left the track. Iirc a similar incident in a car race was not penalised but the rule was changed afterwards, I don't know if Rossi considered all this or just saved a lose the only way he could, but it was definitely a lose rather than a pass and now I come to think about it rather similar to MM's crash at Portimao, except Stoner who was on the racing line was good enough to avoid being torpedoed and in a situation which allowed same which I am sure Rossi did consider. Stoner more or less said amid the post-race hooha when he was being roundly vilified for being good enough to avoid what would likely have been a dangerous collision that Rossi had an advantage because he was both prepared to race like this (there were other manouevres in that race) and knew he could get away with doing so. He pointed to the incident later in the race when he ended up in the sand as a result of evasive action after pretty much being brake tested, which he actually said Rossi was entitled to do being ahead, but that he could have just run into the back of him which would have been to his advantage in the title race but was not something he would contemplate doing. Rossi chose carefully in regard to such things, he was happy to try it on with the likes of Gibernau and Stoner but not so much with Toni Elias about whom he made bitter complaint. One thing you can say about MM imo is that he is no hypocrite, I can't recall him complaining publicly about another rider including in regard to those who have sought tows from him.

As you and others say after MM deciding he would race the same way as Rossi (including specifically emulating the last corner Jerez pass and the Corkscrew "pass") and being allowed to do so because he was the new "man", the next generation of riders has been influenced. MM himself in his latter years before this incident has mainly been a risk to himself rather than other riders though.

The other aspect of the Corkscrew thing is that I blamed a crazy element among Rossi's fans for Stoner's vilification at the time and not Rossi, but 2015 made it clear he had been orchestrating such behaviour by his fans towards his significant opponents all along, which is why I have no time for him now while recognising his greatness as a rider.

Mrpurple said:

"He got the bike on pole with no other Honda in Q2, like you said he just needs a sniff."

Only because of the tow...

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Yeah I think somebody referenced that. In that without that tow he wouldn’t have been up near the front with the ensuing mess, yadda yadda. (Maybe the mess would have been further back.)

BUT, getting a tow has to be artfully done in order to get the desired result. AND, it ain’t illegal. YET.

Something to sneer at? Yes, definitely.

michaelm said:

I have never been sure about the rule at the time in regard to the Corkscrew, it was certainly illegal when MM repeated it with Rossi but both left the track.

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I don’t know either, but the thing I actually remember most about Rossi was his ability to cut a corner with impunity, like he deserved to do so. It happened way more than it ever should have and he never paid a price for it. That I know of.

michaelm said:

One thing you can say about MM imo is that he is no hypocrite, I can't recall him complaining publicly about another rider including in regard to those who have sought tows from him.

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Totally agree.

Bern1 said:

Yeah I think somebody referenced that. In that without that tow he wouldn’t have been up near the front with the ensuing mess, yadda yadda. (Maybe the mess would have been further back.)

BUT, getting a tow has to be artfully done in order to get the desired result. AND, it ain’t illegal. YET.

Something to sneer at? Yes, definitely.

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To put my fanboy hat on (yet again) I can recall another rider being pilloried for complaining about riders seeking tows, and he was riding a Ducati which he had to take to the brink of crashing to navigate a corner as JB and Valentino said when they arrived at Ducati and saw his telemetry. He also copped criticism for complaining about the danger of high speed differentials particularly on the racing line, something concerning which I am sure he did not seek to be proven correct, cf the Willairot incident which formed your attitude to MM among other incidents, some unfortunately even more tragic.

Mrpurple said:

"He got the bike on pole with no other Honda in Q2, like you said he just needs a sniff."

Only because of the tow...

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A tow any of the three other Honda riders could have got, and didn't. What is your point? Besides trying to diminish MM's achievement.

Why is towing suddenly a problem now because Marquez is doing it? He was the one most other riders got a tow off (Iannone mostly), FOR YEARS, and I have never once seen him complain.

Simoncelli, boss of the Sic58 Moto3 team and father of the late Marco, also questioned what the reaction would have been like had Marquez been involved in any of the close moves, contacts and collisions at Le Mans.

Marquez had been absent from MotoGP since fracturing his thumb in the Portimao season opener, when he collided with Miguel Oliveira and was given a double long lap penalty (which ultimately wasn’t served due to his injury absence from the following round).

“At this moment, where journalists and TV often spread false alarms, but only about those they want, and risky overtakes are discussed almost to the point of absurdity, I want to ask you a question: What if Marquez had been involved?" wrote Simoncelli.

"What if he had been the cause of one of the accidents or contacts? Do you think that the media would have played it down? Let me answer, of course not! They would have burned him as they did with Joan of Arc, just to quote a French example.