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Are you on the Absinthe again, because that,s how it is coming across , old son, monsieur Jumk. You may need to apologise for a second time.



Krops interpretation is completely correct here. Your desperate attempt to link Lorenzo,s gesturing with race direction,s call is bordering on the pathological.



ps; I would love to have seen Hayden on the podium too.



pps: I would love to have seen Stoner pass Lorenzo.



..............but race direction made a call, a correct call,.............. a safe call. To argue with that is to reveal a confused and conspiratorial mind.
 
I blame Dorna. They organised a race in a tropical climate leading in to the wet season. I live in a tropical climate, and as many of you would know; when it's raining, nature doesn't .... around. I regularly see the yearly average rainfall for Sydney (1200 mm) in an hour. Then it'll dry up within five minutes. Crazy weather, it's like a five year old found the switch to turn rain on and off.
 
Sure, Jumkie is laying it on thick for effect. But what's so strange about believing Lorenzo's signals influenced them in their decision? He must have thought it might, otherwise he would probably not have taken the risk of taking his hand of the handlebar. For what it's worth, I personally don't think it mattered who it was to race direction, they would have responded to any of the frontrunners, perhaps even every rider out there. Last year's events may well have something to do with that.



Nobody is claiming that the race should not have been red flagged, this a straw man argument. Yes, with the gift of hindsight the decision to abort the race was justified. The same thing goes for saying it wouldn't have mattered much for the outcome. You can of course keep throwing the tinfoil hat ad hominem around, I'm sure it will stick with some but it looks like a pretty weak argument to me.



+1



I'd add more but I'm trying to pretend to pay attention to a conversation in my living room.
 
You’ve been in great form Krops.
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How is your sarcasm meter working today? Fire it up, I hope you put a fresh battery. Ah yes, truly a stellar time tested defense, I&rsquo;m just talking &ldquo;conspiracy&rdquo; (the use of the very word is proof enough the accuser is correct); but that cat with tin foil, hahaha, you got me now. How can I possibly defend against the cute ..... cat? Well, that really proves you&rsquo;re right and I&rsquo;m wrong. Hahaha (damnit I wish I was smart enough to post a pic, Ben needs to get off his ... and fix the old system). I saw this great motivational poster the other day, dude has head in sand with the caption that read, &ldquo;You make a good point, let me try and evade you.&rdquo;



With all do respect, just because your vision is impaired when you stick your head in the sand doesn&rsquo;t mean whats above ground has disappeared buddy. Let me get this straight, you&rsquo;re tired of people calling conspiracy, and your defense, multi-fold: you&rsquo;re tired of it, the routine of people calling out the ........, and your never before seen suggestion that perhaps we should follow another sport. Hahaha, Have you ever seen the movie My Cousin Vinny? Cue up Vinny&rsquo;s voice; &ldquo;I should've asked you along time ago for these pictures. Holy ...., you got it, honey! You did it! The case cracker &hellip;&rdquo; Ah yes, another stellar defense, your tired of the &ldquo;routine?&rdquo; &ldquo;Routine&rdquo;, to mean, something happens with regularity, right? The fact shenanigan happen with such frequency (of which you are tired) should be a bit more disturbing to you. You want to know why you come across this &lsquo;routinely&rsquo; made accusation that the league disproportionally uses bias among certain riders? Well maybe its because there is good reason, as it happens often enough (routinely) for those who can read between the lines (not sure you&rsquo;re up for it buddy) to call out their suspicions when they see something that doesn&rsquo;t pass the sniff test.



You have made your point that calling a race is difficult due to weather conditions. Wow, you mean it&rsquo;s difficult to call a developing weather situation, no, are you serious? (Your sarcasm detector, I hope its working). Great insight buddy, but again, that is not the point; the question is are the officials being influenced disproportionately by some higher profile riders, in this case Lorenzo? That is the question to be pondered! I say yes. You apparently say no, all is on the up and up, all competent and unbiased race direction. I honestly wonder if you&rsquo;re so close and vested to the league that you may be suffering from vision impairment. Anyway, make no mistake, your opinion is superior in my book on many subjects, but on your unwillingness to question a series of events that begs certain questions, you are definitely a regular Joe spectator (I bet you didn&rsquo;t see any connections when the league went to single tire supplier, anyway, that&rsquo;s another topic). I&rsquo;m just a spectator watching on TV, you were probably there in the Sepang, in the best seat in the house where all the other journalist sit&hellip;.right?



Allow me to remind you of a funny story I read this year, when again, weather and the officials handling of conditions was in question (very similar to what we are discussing here, weather, officials, and bias). It was actually in an official press release (thank God, you take special attention to those things right?) Wsbk, Effenbert team released in a press release their thoughts (more like outing and whistle blowing) that the league was disproportionally giving attention to &lsquo;a few number of teams and riders&rsquo; (paraphrasing, but I&rsquo;m sure you can look it up, its pretty close). Oh crap?!? What what what? You mean a team would be accusing their league of shenanigans, EXACTLY of the type I&rsquo;m (a lowly spectator) proposing here? ....! Cue up the kitty cat tin foil pics Kropos, you need to send Effenbert a pic too. Oh wait, they&rsquo;re actually gone now, they like Stoner said FU to the league and got out of Dodge. Oh, but wait, that was Wsbk I was talking about, GP are a different class of people, they are beyond reproach, not to mention, specifically, race direction, a model of competence (and extra engines apparently). In addition, race direction was just recently accused of making a mistake against Dani by Carmelo (Mr. Integrity himself) saying they had made a mistake in Misano (and here I was beginning to think they were infallible). Oh snap, sorry for thrashing your carefully constructed defense that league officials are competent and unbiased when it comes to situations on the ground as they develop in real time.



Racing in the rain is inherently dangerous, but they race in these conditions anyway. Some riders are more comfortable while others are not in these conditions (just look at your &ldquo;alien&rdquo; boy Marc vs. noname-wild card entry in Moto2 this weekend). Anyway, in MotoGP, as the rain began to fall, it appeared that Casey got stronger (and a sound-bite to support this reality) while Pedros seemed totally oblivious to the conditions as he charged ahead and maintained his lead unflustered (well thats what it appeared like on TV). As the rain got worse the rider that appeared the most flustered was Lorenzo, raising his hand and almost laying it down). Moments later, the red flag comes out. Now I know you struggle to make any connections with a series of events (as you like to err on the side that these are just coincidence) as they appear totally unrelated to you unless you are handed a pres release; but from my vantage point, having seen other rain races (on TV), with the knowledge that Lorenzo had probably used up his softer tires (you have failed to analyze this point with any pertinent deduction), coupled with reflections of the league officials being a bias bunch (don&rsquo;t expect them to admit it in a press release either), then I propose, the race was stopped much to do with Lorenzo&rsquo;s behest. You disagree. Fine. Now you want to make the case no such bias exists among the men in the race control office, right?!?



Sure, Lorenzo can flail his hand all he wants, its up to race direction to make a determination on the conditions. Given that nobody else rose their hand, specifically the two other podium contenders, and that fact that the race was stopped in short order after Lorenzo gave his signal, this sure makes for an easy case to propose race direction were swayed disproportionately by one rider.



Again, there you have tried to deflect by using the two points in play here, the question of stopping a dangerous race, sure, hard difficult call, and the timing after Lorenzo rose his hand. This second point is the discussion, what a few and I are questioning, as the league has displayed a propensity to favor some riders over others disproportionally! You apparently have had your head in the sand for the last 10 years, as many people have been accusing the league of such shenanigans, that you, it appears, is baffled one would make such accusation.



Anyway, while typing this little reply, I took the time to look up Effenberts scathing accusation about their motoracing league. I think you will find it really does make one feel confidence in the impartiality of the men running the show. (Of course, you will dismiss it as them just talking conspiracy, or it being another league, orbeing disgruntled, or employing hardball tactics, right?) Pay special attention to the part in bold below:



Here is what Effenbert had to say:



A team statement read: &ldquo;The clear impression is that the WSBK has lived today one of its worst days, disrespect for the public, for those who like the team Effenbert invests and for sports in general.



It is unacceptable that the fundamental decisions of the day are been taken with such a superficiality not even worthy of a monobrand championship of scooter. At the end it is clear that the WSBK is in the hands of a little number of team and riders.



Uhmmm, interesting. Nothing like this would ever apply to MotoGP, right Kropo?
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tl;dr
 
It's not the number of fallers that count, it's the situation on the ground, visibility (big one that) track conditions, etc. As the race has to be restarted anyway, no point in letting it go on to 2/3 distance, might as well red flag it when necessary.



Totally agree Krop that the number of fallers does not matter and is generally of less significance than is the reason why they have fallen, be that visibility, standing water or any other reason.



What I was alluding to was the thought that in my mind race direction would know the 'numbers' required and that may have had an influence on their decision with regards to not flagging a lap earlier etc.



When you say that the race had not reached 2/3 wasn't 14 laps the cutoff?
 
I blame Dorna. They organised a race in a tropical climate leading in to the wet season. I live in a tropical climate, and as many of you would know; when it's raining, nature doesn't .... around. I regularly see the yearly average rainfall for Sydney (1200 mm) in an hour. Then it'll dry up within five minutes. Crazy weather, it's like a five year old found the switch to turn rain on and off.



This. Can't race there any other time, because of the precious European rounds, so they go there late in the year when it will rain. Same with ....... Qatar: The Qataris want to be both the first race and to have a night race. This means the season starts late and conditions get sketchy just about the time the race is on. If they had a day race, we could start the season a month earlier, and that would be better for Austin and Argentina (if it happens) too. Or they could have a night race in May when the conditions would be much better at night, and dew wouldn't be forming. But no, money talks and we're racing there late March.
 
Totally agree Krop that the number of fallers does not matter and is generally of less significance than is the reason why they have fallen, be that visibility, standing water or any other reason.



What I was alluding to was the thought that in my mind race direction would know the 'numbers' required and that may have had an influence on their decision with regards to not flagging a lap earlier etc.



When you say that the race had not reached 2/3 wasn't 14 laps the cutoff?



It is 2/3 of full race distance, rounded down. 2/3 of 20 is 13 and a bit. Rounded down is 13. A lot of people (including a lot of people who really ought to know) were confused.
 
So Krop, on a serious side you over here already?



Down at the island or elsewhere?
 
So Krop, on a serious side you over here already?



Down at the island or elsewhere?



Nope, at home. Australia is officially a ....... Long Way Away, and I ain't rich enough yet to be travelling to the other side of the world.
 
Nope, at home. Australia is officially a ....... Long Way Away, and I ain't rich enough yet to be travelling to the other side of the world.



WTF!! Arab and Jumkie will pay!! surely you don't have something to do, other than motorcycle racing!!



Arab was going to pay up big time! just for me to have a rematch with Rocket Ronny!!



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Nope, at home. Australia is officially a ....... Long Way Away, and I ain't rich enough yet to be travelling to the other side of the world.



........ Krop, it is the bloody US of A that is a long long way away.
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Well it is from where I sit.
 
This. Can't race there any other time, because of the precious European rounds, so they go there late in the year when it will rain. Same with ....... Qatar: The Qataris want to be both the first race and to have a night race. This means the season starts late and conditions get sketchy just about the time the race is on. If they had a day race, we could start the season a month earlier, and that would be better for Austin and Argentina (if it happens) too. Or they could have a night race in May when the conditions would be much better at night, and dew wouldn't be forming. But no, money talks and we're racing there late March.



I have to point out to you that F1 usually goes to Sepang in March and I can't recall more than maybe one race there when it hasn't been affected by, or red flagged by, rain. So maybe it's not the time of year that matters, more the time of day. I can't speak for motogp but I know they schedule the F1 races to start at a time which more suits the European audience, that time also coincides with when it rains on a fairly regular basis it seems, and was also the same time of day they started the race this weekend. Yet they still insist on running it then which is plain stupid in my opinion, but the safety aspect is clearly less important than the viewing figures it seems to me.
 
I completely agree on the inconsistency of the decision making. I would say that it is hard for people only seeing the TV feed to make a judgement call, RD have a bank of TV screens showing every camera all the time, plus circuit CCTV, plus radio reports from every marshal post. The trouble is, each situation is different, and hard to compare. That doesn't mean that RD shouldn't do their best to be consistent about it, though.



My tinfoil comments were not aimed at you, but at Jum and others, who appear to believe that Carmelo has a big red phone in his office which he uses to call RD and pass on his instructions. I have been in his office and he does not. And I know what the Race Director would say if Carmelo tried it.



clich&eacute; guevara;332571 said:
yes, inconsistency is a problem

but i'd rather they stop it when it is the right thing to do and hope they will decide similary in the future than saying well .... it ,we made a mistake last year so we have to let it keep going so we don't look bad on powerslide.





anyways, when we debate whether lorenzos waving had a big influence on the timing of the red flag it shows that there is not much to talk about in gps at the moment.

bring on the next round



Again, the tinfoil thing is not aimed at you. RD was as influenced by Lorenzo's handwaving as they were by the crashes a couple of laps earlier, Rossi losing a chunk of time, Lorenzo's massive front lock-up, the masses of spray thrown up by every bike, the precipitation radar, the sound of the bikes aquaplaning down the front straight, etc etc etc. The mere fact of Lorenzo waving his hand meant nothing. The fact of Lorenzo waving hand in combination with all the other factors meant it was time to act.



Fair enough.
 







Yeah right (sarcasm), now you gonna revise your persona too? We both know you read my post dude. As enlightened as you may think you are, you can&rsquo;t escape human nature.



Your entire argument on this point has been similar to many of your other assertions: &lsquo;believe me, I&rsquo;m an expert&rsquo;. Hahaha. Other than your tinfoil kitty, your evidence for race direction not being swayed disproportionately by high-profile riders has been to say that the league officials have assured you they are honest and competent (to a journalist no less). WEAK.





What do you take us (willing to challenge you) for? You can assert all you want, the fact is .... that happens on full display quite frequently sparks question which leads to officials evading and savvy spectators reading between the lines. And with good reason, its not like we have much hardball investigative journalism happening. So we are supposed to believe you that the league, race direction, and its officials are honest competent men full of integrity because you said, &lsquo;trust me, they told me so&rsquo;. You remind me of a guy selling me a used car once (true story), I asked him during the test drive, what assurances could he offer me the car was solid, do you have any maintenance receipts or something that I could surmise about the car&rsquo;s history, he replied, (I .... you not) &ldquo;Well I attend church regularly, I wouldn&rsquo;t lie to you.&rdquo; Hahaha, I still laugh about it today many years later. (I didn&rsquo;t buy the car). We are supposed to believe you because you attend the church of GP regularly. Well news flash, these ..... are as corrupt as most mega churches.



So you haven&rsquo;t seen a big red phone in Carmelo&rsquo;s office? That pretty funny, maybe he hasn&rsquo;t imposed his influence then like many of us have thought, including the weak ... fools unwilling or incapable to challenge you on your assertion that suddenly (because you say so) league officials are unbiased, competent, and unswayed by the darlings of the sport. Even though all of us on this thread to a man have claimed as much.



EDIT: Forgot my good natured smilie face:
<
 
We both know you read my post dude. As enlightened as you may think you are, you can&rsquo;t escape human nature.



dude,really i don't mean to offend but you take all this .... (including the rants) too serious.

i really enjoy reading your posts, more often then not you offer interesting thoughts and open up great debates , but in this case its become too much wwf stuff and then its ultra-long posts about it.don't be offended if its just too much this time for everybody here to read these lenghty posts in their full length.

maybe you should do it newspaper style, a headline to grab the attention, 4-5 lines summarizing your thoughts and then the 500+ word essay on why everything in gp is ......
<
 
Feel free to skip them Cloche, but i know u wont.
<
Read my sig for clues buddy. When eventually u meet me, u'll know i dont take anything on the forum too seriously, especially ur opinions (don't be offended).
<




Anyway, do u have a point u'd like to debate other than telling me the many words in my post hurt ur eyes? Krops can take care of himself, he doesn't need you or the other lame crows picking up crumbs on our little debate. If you got something to add or point to challenge then do it, rather than projecting what you think we might be feeling. I suppose you could have replied to Krops cute pics and asked him why hes taking criticism of the league up the ... (the kitty pics being an extension of his thread crying about people not appreciating GP, of course his main argument was, hey, Wsbk is so much more corrupt, hahaha). Or u just gonna post a pic when u realize u got nothing too?
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Now don't you have some taxes you should be paying you heathen?
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