sepang race

I recall - ironically - Dani raising his hand - I'm sure it was Brno during a 250 race probably his maiden season 2004. Sometimes when it begins to drizzle it can appear far worse through a visor than it is in actuality. Pedrosa was leading and slowed, raising his hand to stop the race (deeming it his prerogative to do so and knowing it had gone two thirds distance) whereupon at least half a dozen riders clearly disagreed and streamed past him which I found hilarious and If my memory serves me right it cost him the win and a podium place. On the other hand, if it was his championship year he may very well have recovered to win it. Nonetheless - he was incredulous and furious that the race had not been stopped at his behest.

stiefel said:

Yes Jumkie, how dare you criticize our beloved sport?!? Blasphemy, I say, BLASPHEMY!

Gentlemen, get the stones out.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsVAYFSEBrA[/media]

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I'm all for criticizing the sport, but the tinfoil routine is getting old. I think RD made roughly the right call, they could have waited another minute, max, but then it would have been over. People at the track were reporting that there was water inches deep 5 minutes after the red flag.

Kropotkin said:

I'm all for criticizing the sport, but the tinfoil routine is getting old. I think RD made roughly the right call, they could have waited another minute, max, but then it would have been over. People at the track were reporting that there was water inches deep 5 minutes after the red flag.

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Sure, Jumkie is laying it on thick for effect. But what's so strange about believing Lorenzo's signals influenced them in their decision? He must have thought it might, otherwise he would probably not have taken the risk of taking his hand of the handlebar. For what it's worth, I personally don't think it mattered who it was to race direction, they would have responded to any of the frontrunners, perhaps even every rider out there. Last year's events may well have something to do with that.



Nobody is claiming that the race should not have been red flagged, this a straw man argument. Yes, with the gift of hindsight the decision to abort the race was justified. The same thing goes for saying it wouldn't have mattered much for the outcome. You can of course keep throwing the tinfoil hat ad hominem around, I'm sure it will stick with some but it looks like a pretty weak argument to me.

but whats hindsight about that?it was obvious that the race could not be run for more than maybe a lap,judging by what the people who have been there (some of them the riders) said it was high time they waved the red flag when they did and the rain was getting heavier by the minute.

also for the result to be changed they would have needed not one , but at least 2 laps so that it would count.

i think you will find nobody that would agree that waiting for 2 more laps would have been a good idea. no hindsight whatsoever,just judging by the conditions on lap 14.



i too would have loved to see casey attack jorge but really, thats no reason to question a good decision.

stiefel said:

Sure, Jumkie is laying it on thick for effect. But what's so strange about believing Lorenzo's signals influenced them in their decision? He must have thought it might, otherwise he would probably not have taken the risk of taking his hand of the handlebar. For what it's worth, I personally don't think it mattered who it was to race direction, they would have responded to any of the frontrunners, perhaps even every rider out there. Last year's events may well have something to do with that.



Nobody is claiming that the race should not have been red flagged, this a straw man argument. Yes, with the gift of hindsight the decision to abort the race was justified. The same thing goes for saying it wouldn't have mattered much for the outcome. You can of course keep throwing the tinfoil hat ad hominem around, I'm sure it will stick with some but it looks like a pretty weak argument to me.

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No doubt that Lorenzo wanted the race stopped, knowing it would be good for him once his tire had gone off. He was clearly signaling to Race Direction his desires. The mistake is to believe that Race Direction give a .... what Jorge Lorenzo wants. That is all.

cliché guevara said:

but whats hindsight about that?it was obvious that the race could not be run for more than maybe a lap,judging by what the people who have been there (some of them the riders) said it was high time they waved the red flag when they did and the rain was getting heavier by the minute.

also for the result to be changed they would have needed not one , but at least 2 laps so that it would count.

i think you will find nobody that would agree that waiting for 2 more laps would have been a good idea. no hindsight whatsoever,just judging by the conditions on lap 14.



i too would have loved to see casey attack jorge but really, thats no reason to question a good decision.

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Ok, perhaps this is getting lost in translation. Again. It is completely irrelevant to me, and to the argument, how the red flag may have affected the eventual outcome of the race. For all we know, Pedrosa and Stoner could have crashed the next lap an broken every bone in their body.



I also care little about what the riders said. Of course they were happy the thing was flagged, wouldn't you be. What I have beef with, is that previously conditions just as dangerous (remember Philip Island last year when the whole field was out on slicks?), there were no red flags. Hence, I question the timing of the red flag, and the consitency of race direction. If that is enough to quality for the tinfoil hat department, I'm going to the kitchen drawer now for some handy work.

Kropotkin said:

No doubt that Lorenzo wanted the race stopped, knowing it would be good for him once his tire had gone off. He was clearly signaling to Race Direction his desires. The mistake is to believe that Race Direction give a .... what Jorge Lorenzo wants. That is all.

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With emphasis on "believe", which is exactly what we are talking about here. I believe RD was influenced by Lorenzo's signal, although I believe that they probably would have been similarly influenced by Pedrosa, Stoner or any of the top runners at that time. If you believe they weren't influenced by his handwaving, that's fine, I'm not preaching the gospel here. But I do object to getting painted with the tinfoil hat-brush for holding different believes about something neither knows for a fact.

stiefel said:

Ok, perhaps this is getting lost in translation. Again. It is completely irrelevant to me, and to the argument, how the red flag may have affected the eventual outcome of the race. For all we know, Pedrosa and Stoner could have crashed the next lap an broken every bone in their body.



I also care little about what the riders said. Of course they were happy the thing was flagged, wouldn't you be. What I have beef with, is that previously conditions just as dangerous (remember Philip Island last year when the whole field was out on slicks?), there were no red flags. Hence, I question the timing of the red flag, and the consitency of race direction. If that is enough to quality for the tinfoil hat department, I'm going to the kitchen drawer now for some handy work.

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I completely agree on the inconsistency of the decision making. I would say that it is hard for people only seeing the TV feed to make a judgement call, RD have a bank of TV screens showing every camera all the time, plus circuit CCTV, plus radio reports from every marshal post. The trouble is, each situation is different, and hard to compare. That doesn't mean that RD shouldn't do their best to be consistent about it, though.



My tinfoil comments were not aimed at you, but at Jum and others, who appear to believe that Carmelo has a big red phone in his office which he uses to call RD and pass on his instructions. I have been in his office and he does not. And I know what the Race Director would say if Carmelo tried it.

yes, inconsistency is a problem

but i'd rather they stop it when it is the right thing to do and hope they will decide similary in the future than saying well .... it ,we made a mistake last year so we have to let it keep going so we don't look bad on powerslide.





anyways, when we debate whether lorenzos waving had a big influence on the timing of the red flag it shows that there is not much to talk about in gps at the moment.

bring on the next round

stiefel said:

With emphasis on "believe", which is exactly what we are talking about here. I believe RD was influenced by Lorenzo's signal, although I believe that they probably would have been similarly influenced by Pedrosa, Stoner or any of the top runners at that time. If you believe they weren't influenced by his handwaving, that's fine, I'm not preaching the gospel here. But I do object to getting painted with the tinfoil hat-brush for holding different believes about something neither knows for a fact.

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Again, the tinfoil thing is not aimed at you. RD was as influenced by Lorenzo's handwaving as they were by the crashes a couple of laps earlier, Rossi losing a chunk of time, Lorenzo's massive front lock-up, the masses of spray thrown up by every bike, the precipitation radar, the sound of the bikes aquaplaning down the front straight, etc etc etc. The mere fact of Lorenzo waving his hand meant nothing. The fact of Lorenzo waving hand in combination with all the other factors meant it was time to act.

All logical Krop.



But don,t stand in the way of Jumkie and his conspiracy theories. You have to remember that theoretically Hayden could have got on the podium if the race had continued and Nicky was skillful enough to stay upright. The average person just isn,t aware of the unseen forces aligned against Nicky and his chance of a podium. haha

Kropotkin said:

I'm all for criticizing the sport, but the tinfoil routine is getting old. I think RD made roughly the right call, they could have waited another minute, max, but then it would have been over. People at the track were reporting that there was water inches deep 5 minutes after the red flag.

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You’ve been in great form Krops.



How is your sarcasm meter working today? Fire it up, I hope you put a fresh battery. Ah yes, truly a stellar time tested defense, I’m just talking “conspiracy” (the use of the very word is proof enough the accuser is correct); but that cat with tin foil, hahaha, you got me now. How can I possibly defend against the cute ..... cat? Well, that really proves you’re right and I’m wrong. Hahaha (damnit I wish I was smart enough to post a pic, Ben needs to get off his ... and fix the old system). I saw this great motivational poster the other day, dude has head in sand with the caption that read, “You make a good point, let me try and evade you.”



With all do respect, just because your vision is impaired when you stick your head in the sand doesn’t mean whats above ground has disappeared buddy. Let me get this straight, you’re tired of people calling conspiracy, and your defense, multi-fold: you’re tired of it, the routine of people calling out the ........, and your never before seen suggestion that perhaps we should follow another sport. Hahaha, Have you ever seen the movie My Cousin Vinny? Cue up Vinny’s voice; “I should've asked you along time ago for these pictures. Holy ...., you got it, honey! You did it! The case cracker …” Ah yes, another stellar defense, your tired of the “routine?” “Routine”, to mean, something happens with regularity, right? The fact shenanigan happen with such frequency (of which you are tired) should be a bit more disturbing to you. You want to know why you come across this ‘routinely’ made accusation that the league disproportionally uses bias among certain riders? Well maybe its because there is good reason, as it happens often enough (routinely) for those who can read between the lines (not sure you’re up for it buddy) to call out their suspicions when they see something that doesn’t pass the sniff test.



You have made your point that calling a race is difficult due to weather conditions. Wow, you mean it’s difficult to call a developing weather situation, no, are you serious? (Your sarcasm detector, I hope its working). Great insight buddy, but again, that is not the point; the question is are the officials being influenced disproportionately by some higher profile riders, in this case Lorenzo? That is the question to be pondered! I say yes. You apparently say no, all is on the up and up, all competent and unbiased race direction. I honestly wonder if you’re so close and vested to the league that you may be suffering from vision impairment. Anyway, make no mistake, your opinion is superior in my book on many subjects, but on your unwillingness to question a series of events that begs certain questions, you are definitely a regular Joe spectator (I bet you didn’t see any connections when the league went to single tire supplier, anyway, that’s another topic). I’m just a spectator watching on TV, you were probably there in the Sepang, in the best seat in the house where all the other journalist sit….right?



Allow me to remind you of a funny story I read this year, when again, weather and the officials handling of conditions was in question (very similar to what we are discussing here, weather, officials, and bias). It was actually in an official press release (thank God, you take special attention to those things right?) Wsbk, Effenbert team released in a press release their thoughts (more like outing and whistle blowing) that the league was disproportionally giving attention to ‘a few number of teams and riders’ (paraphrasing, but I’m sure you can look it up, its pretty close). Oh crap?!? What what what? You mean a team would be accusing their league of shenanigans, EXACTLY of the type I’m (a lowly spectator) proposing here? ....! Cue up the kitty cat tin foil pics Kropos, you need to send Effenbert a pic too. Oh wait, they’re actually gone now, they like Stoner said FU to the league and got out of Dodge. Oh, but wait, that was Wsbk I was talking about, GP are a different class of people, they are beyond reproach, not to mention, specifically, race direction, a model of competence (and extra engines apparently). In addition, race direction was just recently accused of making a mistake against Dani by Carmelo (Mr. Integrity himself) saying they had made a mistake in Misano (and here I was beginning to think they were infallible). Oh snap, sorry for thrashing your carefully constructed defense that league officials are competent and unbiased when it comes to situations on the ground as they develop in real time.



Racing in the rain is inherently dangerous, but they race in these conditions anyway. Some riders are more comfortable while others are not in these conditions (just look at your “alien” boy Marc vs. noname-wild card entry in Moto2 this weekend). Anyway, in MotoGP, as the rain began to fall, it appeared that Casey got stronger (and a sound-bite to support this reality) while Pedros seemed totally oblivious to the conditions as he charged ahead and maintained his lead unflustered (well thats what it appeared like on TV). As the rain got worse the rider that appeared the most flustered was Lorenzo, raising his hand and almost laying it down). Moments later, the red flag comes out. Now I know you struggle to make any connections with a series of events (as you like to err on the side that these are just coincidence) as they appear totally unrelated to you unless you are handed a pres release; but from my vantage point, having seen other rain races (on TV), with the knowledge that Lorenzo had probably used up his softer tires (you have failed to analyze this point with any pertinent deduction), coupled with reflections of the league officials being a bias bunch (don’t expect them to admit it in a press release either), then I propose, the race was stopped much to do with Lorenzo’s behest. You disagree. Fine. Now you want to make the case no such bias exists among the men in the race control office, right?!?



Sure, Lorenzo can flail his hand all he wants, its up to race direction to make a determination on the conditions. Given that nobody else rose their hand, specifically the two other podium contenders, and that fact that the race was stopped in short order after Lorenzo gave his signal, this sure makes for an easy case to propose race direction were swayed disproportionately by one rider.



Again, there you have tried to deflect by using the two points in play here, the question of stopping a dangerous race, sure, hard difficult call, and the timing after Lorenzo rose his hand. This second point is the discussion, what a few and I are questioning, as the league has displayed a propensity to favor some riders over others disproportionally! You apparently have had your head in the sand for the last 10 years, as many people have been accusing the league of such shenanigans, that you, it appears, is baffled one would make such accusation.



Anyway, while typing this little reply, I took the time to look up Effenberts scathing accusation about their motoracing league. I think you will find it really does make one feel confidence in the impartiality of the men running the show. (Of course, you will dismiss it as them just talking conspiracy, or it being another league, orbeing disgruntled, or employing hardball tactics, right?) Pay special attention to the part in bold below:



Here is what Effenbert had to say:



A team statement read: “The clear impression is that the WSBK has lived today one of its worst days, disrespect for the public, for those who like the team Effenbert invests and for sports in general.



It is unacceptable that the fundamental decisions of the day are been taken with such a superficiality not even worthy of a monobrand championship of scooter. At the end it is clear that the WSBK is in the hands of a little number of team and riders.



Uhmmm, interesting. Nothing like this would ever apply to MotoGP, right Kropo?

Jesus Christ.

Goatboy said:

Jesus Christ.

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Words, they hurt your brain? Don't worry buddy. Just skip the post. Here, I've give you an easy sentence that will make you feel all warm and fuzzy. 'Rossi is good.'

WSBK is biased and only gets 9 winners in a season.



Motogp is ____________ and gets three winners in a season





Its a very easy test.





I'll even give multiple guess.



a. transparent and interested in the "pure sport" of motorcycle racing over profit



b. slightly cognizant of its European base and errs this way in assistance and decision making



c. Only has three bikes and a dozen or so holograms driven by pimply CG programmers.



d. Is raced on the moon by trained monkeys wearing tuxedos made from bacon



e. So ....... biased but no one wants to smack down the monopoly for fear of the door shutting on them.

Jumkie said:

Words, they hurt your brain? Don't worry buddy. Just skip the post. Here, I've give you an easy sentence that will make you feel all warm and fuzzy. 'Rossi is good.'

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I've always found that the best way to refute allegations of wearing a tinfoil hat is to write a 500+ word post on a message board.

Goatboy said:

I've always found that the best way to refute allegations of wearing a tinfoil hat is to write a 500+ word post on a message board.

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Hahaha, My apologies. I guess reading and writing can really be an awful way to discuss a topic. Im not witty enuf to find a great pic to make my point, nor am i savvy enuf to post one since the site "updates". Perhaps u can just imagine one in place of all those letters and dots i've clumped together in my post?





Andy, im just going to take a wild guess, as ur multiple choice answers are difficult to distinguish. Very subtle differences. Im going with answer D is not correct, but beyond that im stumped.

Goatboy said:

I've always found that the best way to refute allegations of wearing a tinfoil hat is to write a 500+ word post on a message board.

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More like 1300+ !



Show Jum some R.E.S.P.E.C.T. please!

Geonerd said:

More like 1300+ !



Show Jum some R.E.S.P.E.C.T. please!

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Well if I can't read I can't count either!

Jumkie said:

Hahaha, My apologies. I guess reading and writing can really be an awful way to discuss a topic. Im not witty enuf to find a great pic to make my point, nor am i savvy enuf to post one since the site "updates". Perhaps u can just imagine one in place of all those letters and dots i've clumped together in my post?

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well your wasting your time, all you need to write in big capital letters is I'M UPSET THAT HAYDEN ISN'T WINNING." Because between your lines it's all you are ever saying.