Sachsenring race!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 24 2009, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> i tell ya dub, if stoner loses again , has a whine about something and does his grandpa simpson walk at donny im not going to say a word. im going to sit back and see what the apologists say, if they say anything at all most only ever speak if he wins or we take the piss. few ever comment on the race unless its stoner. im going to boo him i think, just for a laugh, see if i can make him cry or whinge



grandpa simpson walk

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 23 2009, 04:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes of course… thanks to Burgues and Rossi!

Because anything before 2004 for 10 years or so… no, Yamaha did not get it right


So, in 2008 Yamah/Bridgestone/Rossi/Burgess were responsible for winning the WC but in 2007 only Ducati/Bridgestone?

Something is missing in that argument for my way of thinking.

Thats wirght - Stoner nad his team technichian/engineer.

See, if you say that Rossi played a part in be it significant ot insigificant in winning the WC in 2008 you have to say that Stoner played as siugnificant a part in winning the WC in 2007. Do you agree?





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2009, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, in 2008 Yamah/Bridgestone/Rossi/Burgess were responsible for winning the WC but in 2007 only Ducati/Bridgestone?

Something is missing in that argument for my way of thinking.

Thats wirght - Stoner nad his team technichian/engineer.

See, if you say that Rossi played a part in be it significant ot insigificant in winning the WC in 2008 you have to say that Stoner played as siugnificant a part in winning the WC in 2007. Do you agree?





Garry
Am i aloud to butt in yet ??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Jul 23 2009, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's funny how when Rossi opens his big mouth and says stupid and controversial things like this, the Rossi fanatics try and sweep it under the rug real quick by not responding to it and going off topic. What an arrogant little ....... Rossi is talking about himself in 3rd person, to me it feels like Lorenzo is deffinately getting under his skin thus using his name in 3rd person as if to make himself feel superior. If Casey Stoner was to even say half of what Rossi is saying here, the Rossi fanboys would probably be at Stoner's front yard with pitchforks.... but since Rossi said it, it's ok, right? What a joke you crazy Rossi fans are.

Man oh man I want Lorenzo to win the championship this year and move on to a new Manufacturer just to piss Rossi off and not give him the chance to get his revenge on the same equipment. But if Rossi is to win this year, I hope Lorenzo stays at Yamaha and give it another try.

I got to say though, it's good to hear him lash out like this... shows that Lorenzo is getting into his head. Go Jorge !!!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 23 2009, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Isn't it funny? I think that Rossi no matter what will always have those fans who could give a .... what he says, they will just come to his aid even if he was caught red handed at doing something so bad. I hope jorge beats him in points but of course I want Stoner to win the WC. It would be really great especially since his season has had some weird things such as this health issue and scafoid problem. So we shall see, the season has been a cracker so far. At least no one is running away with it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Jul 23 2009, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And actually i am am a sports personal trainer, so I do have knowledge on this issue. It is more than possible to workout and not gain any weight. As a matter of fact people actually workout to lose weight. Nothing that little girl could do would make him as big as Lesner. I workout 4-5 days a week and way less than 160 lbs. with a food intake over 2000 calories a day. Now I am not saying he needs to go that far, but riding a rode bike and doing some push ups would go along way to bettering him from his fatigue, and .....-... attitude. Goggle core strength and tell me that would help him out. It would at least make it easier for him to keep his cookies down.


Well as a Personal Trainer you would know that what suits one particular discipline in terms of exercise regime, does not suit another, just as one person is different to another. So, based on your experience you have determined that CS need to ride a road bike more (assuming pushbike) is that correct because if it is, guess what?

Stoner when home in the off season is often seen riding his pushbike around the hinterland nearby his home. He also competes in charity and semi-serious road races (I have mates who have raced him) and these arenot small 30km races but up to 150 kays or more. He does ride pushbikes and trains regularly on such when at home. Of course when away I would suspect that he maintains his level of pushbike riding but probably does what many do and change to a Mountain bike.

As for other training, he runs regularly and has been regarded as one of the harder trainers in MGP for a few years (although certainly that may have backed off recently).

As a PT you would know that yes fatigue can influence performance but you should also know as Michael has pointed out that to much exercise and training can also cause fatigue and lead to other issues. If this were not the case why are all professional team athletes resticted by their employers in the amount of training that they can do.

As an aside, you are obviously no doubt highly skilled within your field if you are able to diagnose and determine such manners as experienced by Casey. Have you submitted a resume to Dorna or any of the individual teams as no doubt if they are getting it worng with CS than possibly others will suffer as well.











Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Jul 23 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Very good gaz. I say he has poor work ethic you say it is just his style. You make some good points. But he still sounds like a lazy stoner to me.

Yes I agree that the way he runs practice and qp are a big reason I say he has poor work ethic. Also his lack of muscle tone, and his fading late in races. I know I know the fatigue is caused by his unknown sickness. Well I am saying his unknown sickness is just fatigue. And the cure? Exercise. Not powerlifting.....just exercise. To think he doesn't need to go to all these specialist just to be told they have no idea whats wrong with him. I can diagnose him for free, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU, YOU ARE LAZY!


So you are saying that he has had a poor work ethic since he started racing (as his style has not changed in terms of practice), is that correct?

If so, how do you explain that it is only this year and in fact the last 3 or 4 races that his 'poor work ethic' have led to the fatigue that has caused him to fade late in the race.

And if fading late in teh race is a sign of poor work ethic - what of other riders who have that propensity (ie, CE just to name one).




Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 24 2009, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, in 2008 Yamah/Bridgestone/Rossi/Burgess were responsible for winning the WC but in 2007 only Ducati/Bridgestone?

Something is missing in that argument for my way of thinking.

Thats wirght - Stoner nad his team technichian/engineer.

See, if you say that Rossi played a part in be it significant ot insigificant in winning the WC in 2008 you have to say that Stoner played as siugnificant a part in winning the WC in 2007. Do you agree?





Garry

You have to be careful here Gaz.... without being a part of either team and seeing the day to day operations its hard to comment.

all most people have to go off is the phenomenal success of Rossi/Burgess when it comes to development, in all classes of racing with different manufacturers they have runs on the board (maybe they can help the Aussie Cricket team!!). Casey doesn't have this, I'm not saying that he can't develop (see below), but his success/dominance in 07 you have to admit was out of the blue, for him, for Ducati and for B-Stone, amidst a barrage of technical rule changes (the most motogp has ever seen) and with an unsuccessful title defense in 08, 07 was simply marriage made in heaven between duck-rubber-stoner and everyone else getting caught with their pants down (Insert Uccio innuendo here!) . But that does not make him the best rider, you are constantly hinting that CS is the best, or equal to, and that he is not getting credit for it, he gets plenty of credit$$$ from Ducati for being 'one of' the best in the world....to infer that CS is the best is to say that he is better than Biaggi, Gibbers, Loris, Roberts JR and Hayden in their primes for the man you infer is equal to or worse than has beaten them all-in their primes. VR is on his fourth generation of challengers with Jorge.

That being said CS was still the fastest in 08, so it can be said that the Stoner/Ducati combo was the best last year too, and you can give partial credit to CS for this due to his development in 07. The Rossi/Burgess Yamaha combo was clearly slower at most rounds. But speed is not everything, race craft, tactics, a bit of luck and a hint of mental instability (when it comes to winning at all costs!) still do count in this game.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Jul 23 2009, 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lol because he picked his bike up out of a gravel trap. First the gravel is not the same everywhere, and depending how the bike is laying in it, it could be easier or harder to get the bike out of the gravel. Also Casey's lower center of gravity would make it easier to get the bike upright on his own. And please he over trained? Do you know how stupid that sounds? When? When he was laid up with the scaphoid or while he is taking it easy due to his illness? Beside I am sure he would have his own personal trainer to make sure he wasn't "over training." Try a new theory cause that on is .....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jul 23 2009, 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is just ignorant. I've seen 200lb guys in good shape - struggle to pick up a tipped over
bike in their driveway. Doing it in a sliding gravel trap, after 30 laps at Laguna in 100 degree
heat is nothing short of nightmare. I used to do endurance races with Reverend Jim Racing
in the early '80s. I've tried uprighting a bike in the trap and failed. Why do you think it takes
as many as 3 corner marshalls to get a crashed bike off the track?


As someone who has picked up a great number of bikes from gravel traps as that is just one of the functions I do at race meetings I feel that I can and will comment here as I have a level of experience.

Picking up a bike in a soft gravel trap (as was Laguna) is not by itself a difficult task as an experienced person will have a 'process' that they follow that has been picked up from years of picking up bikes. So, I do agree that theoretically Stoner should have been easily able to pickup his bike --- but didn't he do that?

Now, where this can get very difficult is when the trap is so soft that the bike continues to move or after a hot or busy day - ie. when you are fatigued.

Often has been the time when I have been able to pickup a bike alone at the start of the day but on a busy day, as it wears on we will need two people because of the sheer fatigue. Picking up one bike is fine, when you pickuup 15 - 20 bikes across a day in a variety of situations then you get fatigued.

So, given that I can get fatigued (never said I was fit - anyone know a personal trainer) and I get to rest between the times I am required, is it wrong to assume that after 23 or whatever laps that CS would be tired in some way from the exertion of racing?

This does not mean that he was fatigued but to me he had no difficulty in lifting the bike and certainly adrenalin would have played a part, but after 23 laps he would have and should have been physically tired to a degree.

To me, CS did nothing out of the ordinary that day and in fact did more than many as he required no help in lifting the bike unlike numerous other examples through the years. But that said, the positioning of thec corner workers plays a part in whether assistance is able to get to the rider and help the lift and at Laguna they may have been to far away.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 23 2009, 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Am i aloud to butt in yet ??


Yes, now is your turn





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 23 2009, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You have to be careful here Gaz.... without being a part of either team and seeing the day to day operations its hard to comment.

all most people have to go off is the phenomenal success of Rossi/Burgess when it comes to development, in all classes of racing with different manufacturers they have runs on the board (maybe they can help the Aussie Cricket team!!). Casey doesn't have this, I'm not saying that he can't develop (see below), but his success/dominance in 07 you have to admit was out of the blue, for him, for Ducati and for B-Stone, amidst a barrage of technical rule changes (the most motogp has ever seen) and with an unsuccessful title defense in 08, 07 was simply marriage made in heaven between duck-rubber-stoner and everyone else getting caught with their pants down (Insert Uccio innuendo here!) . But that does not make him the best rider, you are constantly hinting that CS is the best, or equal to, and that he is not getting credit for it, he gets plenty of credit$$$ from Ducati for being 'one of' the best in the world....to infer that CS is the best is to say that he is better than Biaggi, Gibbers, Loris, Roberts JR and Hayden in their primes for the man you infer is equal to or worse than has beaten them all-in their primes. VR is on his fourth generation of challengers with Jorge.

That being said CS was still the fastest in 08, so it can be said that the Stoner/Ducati combo was the best last year too, and you can give partial credit to CS for this due to his development in 07. The Rossi/Burgess Yamaha combo was clearly slower at most rounds. But speed is not everything, race craft, tactics, a bit of luck and a hint of mental instability (when it comes to winning at all costs!) still do count in this game.


Talpa, it may surprise but I am not in total disagreement regarding the marriage made in heaven type of scenario as for me, all planets aligned, stars were in the right places, lotto nyumbers came up and CS was in the right place at the right time, of that there is little doubt, but he still needed his skill and ability to make it work.

But, VHMP made post:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 23 2009, 03:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Totally agree… point was Ducati/Bridgestone got it right first time around with 800cc.

So, my question is/was would he credit Rossi in 2008 and if so, why no credit to Stoner in 2007?

You see, it is fair and true that the Ducati nor Bridgestones were developed for CS in 2007 although as the year wore one one can hypothesise and assume that there was some input. But why no recognition when VHMP is then so quick to give VR credit in 2008 when the only difference between the year in terms of team/bike equipment was the Bridgestone.

For me, if Rossi gets credit in 2008 then so should Stoner in 2007 (no arguments in my mind, both get due credit).

The discussion is not and was not about bike development but the reference by VHMP to the Bridgestone/Ducati combination and then the Yamaha/Bridgestone/Burgess/Rossi combination.







Garry

If Stoner has no mechanical problems and doesn't win at Donny then you know it is all him. He basically destroyed the entire field last year and maybe that isn't a strong enough word. Maybe decimate? Anyway, he won't win this weekend obviously. It will be less of a show because of it but there you go.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2009, 06:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So you are saying that he has had a poor work ethic since he started racing (as his style has not changed in terms of practice), is that correct?

If so, how do you explain that it is only this year and in fact the last 3 or 4 races that his 'poor work ethic' have led to the fatigue that has caused him to fade late in the race.

And if fading late in teh race is a sign of poor work ethic - what of other riders who have that propensity (ie, CE just to name one).




Garry
You are taking my evaluation of his work ethic a little to personal. I think he hasn't been pushed to his limits the way he has this year. His injuries haven't made things easier, but man does he love to whine and piss and moan about the whole situation. And thats not good for the mental state of a person in return it can cause some "imbalances" if you will. He did mention that he hasn't trained this year due to all these complications in the presser at dunny today. So I am kinda right, but that does mean he has trained in the past so you are right too.
I am interested on more info on his push-biking, if you can find any. Thats basically what I was trying to say, he looks like a "rodie" or a 11 year old Ethiopian girl. I just think, and don't go off the deep end, he could benefit from <u>some</u> strength training.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 23 2009, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But that does not make him the best rider, you are constantly hinting that CS is the best, or equal to, and that he is not getting credit for it, he gets plenty of credit$$$ from Ducati for being 'one of' the best in the world....to infer that CS is the best is to say that he is better than Biaggi, Gibbers, Loris, Roberts JR and Hayden in their primes for the man you infer is equal to or worse than has beaten them all-in their primes. VR is on his fourth generation of challengers with Jorge.

Will address the highlighted part separately so that it doesn't get lost.

Where do I hint that he is the equal of VR?

You seem to either be reading a lot into my posts, possibly with your level of bias as you have clearly stated that you dd not like Stoner.

I will state now as I have in the past that Stoner is probably a quicker rider over one lap (this year has evened out a bit) but that Rossi is a better rider and that is there for all to see.

I would suggest that you review my posts as what you will see is defence of Stoner's record which does not receive due credit in some areas (yes people say they respect but there are subtle digs at time). But, more for me I will defend the guys integrity as people accuse hime of actions that are or at least seem to be acceptable under other circumstances and for me, I am not a person that accepts double standards.

Now, please do tell me where I have said that Stoner is the equal of Rossi?








Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Jul 23 2009, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are taking my evaluation of his work ethic a little to personal. I think he hasn't been pushed to his limits the way he has this year. His injuries haven't made things easier, but man does he love to whine and piss and moan about the whole situation. And thats not good for the mental state of a person in return it can cause some "imbalances" if you will. He did mention that he hasn't trained this year due to all these complications in the presser at dunny today. So I am kinda right, but that does mean he has trained in the past so you are right too.
I am interested on more info on his push-biking, if you can find any. Thats basically what I was trying to say, he looks like a "rodie" or a 11 year old Ethiopian girl. I just think, and don't go off the deep end, he could benefit from <u>some</u> strength training.


I am not really taking it personal but am quite perplexed as to how you can decide that he has a poor work ethic without being in the paddock or team. To me, it would be like me seeing you conduct a class and each time I glanced over you were standing around doing little - I could deduce that you have a poor work ethic as a result and be totally wrong. What you or I see or hear is not everything is the basic of what I am saying and as such we should not judge.


The pushbiking I don't know a lot about but the basics are that a few guys I know through road racing (I officiate) regularl,y compete of summer in charity fundraisers and they say that CS is always present. These guys are relatively harder core and will cycle around 250 or so kms per week and often further and they admit that they cannot get within cooee of Stoner on the road.
Basically they were amazed at how easy he is able to just ride away from them be it flats or hills and in their words 'were very embarrassed' as they considered themselves race fit.

Now I may be stretching here but I also seem to recall a commnet from one of the commentatoris in Australia one day (Magoo or Beattie) where they described CS as training like a professional road cyclist.


Your comments about body mass are interesting as there are few top racers that I have come across who I would describe as 'built'. Most are quite 'wiry' more in the manner or a professional cyclist as they find the body mass to be a hindrance in terms of weight carriage. Of course that only really applies at the top level but there are few in Oz that I would describe as built or with large upper body





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 23 2009, 09:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you really living in the past?? 07 was 2 years ago, he also showed few signs of frailty in 08-physically anyway, so if he has been suffering then CS must be superhuman to ride the duck the way he does-no?? his threshold is certainly above most, The wrist has been a problem for years including 07, it seems that your creativity in rebuttal to suit your bias far surpasses your grip on reality......

I know you don't like me point out the obvious, and you also seem to like to hide behind elitist descriptive references like Pop/Psychology/Journalistic Cliche (WTF!!)in a counter-punch which really missed the mark......so I thought you would enjoy this

Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, especially when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective.[1]. In other words, bias is generally seen as 'one-sided'. The term biased is used to describe an action, judgment, or other outcome influenced by a prejudged perspective. It is also used to refer to a person or body of people whose actions or judgments exhibit bias. The term "biased" is often used as a pejorative, because bias is inherently unjust, lacking merit.


.... I'm starting to sound like a Baby-Boomer now, time to stop!!! Bring on Donny and the Sunshine.....
A simple rebuttal of my arguments will do, and is the name of the game on here. The use of personal invective like "baby boomer" is an obvious sign of desperation .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 24 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Will address the highlighted part separately so that it doesn't get lost.

Where do I hint that he is the equal of VR?

You seem to either be reading a lot into my posts, possibly with your level of bias as you have clearly stated that you dd not like Stoner.

I will state now as I have in the past that Stoner is probably a quicker rider over one lap (this year has evened out a bit) but that Rossi is a better rider and that is there for all to see.

I would suggest that you review my posts as what you will see is defence of Stoner's record which does not receive due credit in some areas (yes people say they respect but there are subtle digs at time). But, more for me I will defend the guys integrity as people accuse hime of actions that are or at least seem to be acceptable under other circumstances and for me, I am not a person that accepts double standards.

Now, please do tell me where I have said that Stoner is the equal of Rossi?








Garry
I did get a bit Ranty around there.....too much expresso this morning, that paragraph should have been for others here!! Sorry mate rookie forum blunder #1

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2009, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am not really taking it personal but am quite perplexed as to how you can decide that he has a poor work ethic without being in the paddock or team. To me, it would be like me seeing you conduct a class and each time I glanced over you were standing around doing little - I could deduce that you have a poor work ethic as a result and be totally wrong. What you or I see or hear is not everything is the basic of what I am saying and as such we should not judge.


The pushbiking I don't know a lot about but the basics are that a few guys I know through road racing (I officiate) regularl,y compete of summer in charity fundraisers and they say that CS is always present. These guys are relatively harder core and will cycle around 250 or so kms per week and often further and they admit that they cannot get within cooee of Stoner on the road.
Basically they were amazed at how easy he is able to just ride away from them be it flats or hills and in their words 'were very embarrassed' as they considered themselves race fit.

Now I may be stretching here but I also seem to recall a commnet from one of the commentatoris in Australia one day (Magoo or Beattie) where they described CS as training like a professional road cyclist.


Your comments about body mass are interesting as there are few top racers that I have come across who I would describe as 'built'. Most are quite 'wiry' more in the manner or a professional cyclist as they find the body mass to be a hindrance in terms of weight carriage. Of course that only really applies at the top level but there are few in Oz that I would describe as built or with large upper body





Garry
Thats the first I heard of it. I am sure it is true, for I have no reason to doubt you. And now on to the dunny thread less than 12 hours. I think we can all agree on that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2009, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, in 2008 Yamah/Bridgestone/Rossi/Burgess were responsible for winning the WC but in 2007 only Ducati/Bridgestone?

Something is missing in that argument for my way of thinking.

Thats wirght - Stoner nad his team technichian/engineer.

See, if you say that Rossi played a part in be it significant ot insigificant in winning the WC in 2008 you have to say that Stoner played as siugnificant a part in winning the WC in 2007. Do you agree?

Garry

Not completely Garry, about riding both had to do of course in their respective winning year… but developing I don't agree, and I think nothing is missing in the argument if you read the whole previous posts…

1.- Since 2004 Rossi/Burgess had been at Yamaha developing the bike, yes the 800cc too since the end of 2006. So the 2008 winning bike had a lot of their input.

2.- Before 2007 the 800cc Ducati had been developed with no Input from Stoner. So he had the riding part, but Ducati did not change most of the bike mid Season '07, so Stoner did not have that development input I am talking about, more like settings a so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 23 2009, 05:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Am i aloud to butt in yet ??

You were 'Censored' Rog… It's a shame, but don't worry… shoot at will!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2009, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner when home in the off season is often seen riding his pushbike around the hinterland nearby his home.

Would this be by 'Chook Town'? Silly joke of mine, and you would have to ask Kurry Kurry's common people about it!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2009, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Talpa, it may surprise but I am not in total disagreement regarding the marriage made in heaven type of scenario as for me, all planets aligned, stars were in the right places, lotto nyumbers came up and CS was in the right place at the right time, of that there is little doubt, but he still needed his skill and ability to make it work.

But, VHMP made post:

So, my question is/was would he credit Rossi in 2008 and if so, why no credit to Stoner in 2007?

You see, it is fair and true that the Ducati nor Bridgestones were developed for CS in 2007 although as the year wore one one can hypothesise and assume that there was some input. But why no recognition when VHMP is then so quick to give VR credit in 2008 when the only difference between the year in terms of team/bike equipment was the Bridgestone.

For me, if Rossi gets credit in 2008 then so should Stoner in 2007 (no arguments in my mind, both get due credit).

The discussion is not and was not about bike development but the reference by VHMP to the Bridgestone/Ducati combination and then the Yamaha/Bridgestone/Burgess/Rossi combination.

Garry

See above.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 24 2009, 05:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not completely Garry, about riding both had to do of course in their respective winning year… but developing I don't agree, and I think nothing is missing in the argument if you read the whole previous posts…

1.- Since 2004 Rossi/Burgess had been at Yamaha developing the bike, yes the 800cc too since the end of 2006. So the 2008 winning bike had a lot of their input.

2.- Before 2007 the 800cc Ducati had been developed with no Input from Stoner. So he had the riding part, but Ducati did not change most of the bike mid Season '07, so Stoner did not have that development input I am talking about, more like settings a so.

Ah - my turn.

Nowhere did I mention the development side, nor will I as simply put CS cannot claim to have developed the Ducati in 2007 as that was more Loris' responsibility, although through pre-season testing no doubt CS had input.

And nor will I argue about input from VR and JB into the Yamaha as despite the change to capacity the basics that made the 990cc machine the success it was would have been followed into the 800cc machine.

But, your post thanked Ducati/Bridgestone for winning the WC in 2007.

So, in a fully loaded question I asked if that then meant that Yamaha/bridgestone won in 2008. Your answer was that yes they did with Rossi/Burgess - so in essence Yamaha/Bridgestone/Rossi/Burgess won the title in 2008. Now I do not disagree with this and never have.

See, my point being that if you credit Rossi/Burgess in 2008 then you must credit Stoner and his Engineer (name escapes me) in 2007. Failure to do so whilst crediting Rossi/Burgess for 2008 shows a distinct bias or lack of understanding of the situation as there was a rider in 2007 as well who had to make the most of the equipment and pilot the bike.

Now, you say that in 2008 VR/JB have to be credited as they had developed the Yamaha to be the machine it had become. But they had not had time to develop that Yamaha for the Bridgestone tyres and as such VR had a slow start to the year but certainly, once they got ther path identified they really shot off.

Now, if you say that JB/VR are responsible for 2008, does it then, make Stoners win it 2007 even more meritorious than some credit?

If I extend your logic, in 2007 Stoner was on tyres not developed for or by him, on a bike not developed for of by him and in an all new category of 800cc machines after just one year in the top flight (really though - experience in top flight is little relevance). Yet despite all this he won the WC convincingly - some say luckily, some say that the Ducati won it and Stoner simply sat on it and others say that the title was won by Ducati/Bridgestone.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Jul 24 2009, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats the first I heard of it. I am sure it is true, for I have no reason to doubt you. And now on to the dunny thread less than 12 hours. I think we can all agree on that.
Your basic point ie that they are mostly emaciated horse jockeys which probably both increases their risk of injury and risks their long term health in terms of bone strength etc. is of course correct. I agree with those who have previously argued on here that there should be a minimum combined bike + rider weight as the current formula actively encourages anorexia.

I am also looking forward to donnington, which rossi will more than likely win in his current form.