<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>God, I responded a while back so I may have forgotten the message behind the post but it was more along the lines of your point that to be truly credited for a WC one must have played a role in teh development of that motorcycle (lets leave JB out of teh 125/250 discussion). This my question was does he get equal credit (in your eyes) for the 125 and 250cc titles?
You seem to answer above by saying that he won based on talent because others may have played a role in the development of that motorcycle (I agree with that premise actually).
If VR gets the same level of credit (which he should) then again it harks back to credit for perfomance on a machine that they may not have fully developed. See the circle.
Yes, but, the 250cc didn't experience major upheaval in technical rule changes as motoGP did in 07. So if you going to credit riders, its easier to do when massive amounts of technical factors appear to influence the results.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope but that wasn't the point.
You seem to say that the performance of CS was a surprise in terms of results - that really is not in question as it was a surprise to many. My point though is was it as 'out of the blue' or could it be seen as a possibility based upon his 2006 results. My opinion is that yes, it could have been seen if one takes full stock of his 2006 season, would anyone have really predicted it - I expect not.
Impossible to not call his complete dominance in 07 'out of the blue' 06, 05, 04 really gave us nothing. c'mon.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Luccio Cechinello has said that the tyre selection was bottom tier. It has been reported in many press stories obver the years and it does make perfect sense given the articles/discussions surrounding the Michelin tyre policy.
CS entered MotoGP with very little fanfare and a low profile (in terms of the publicity that accompaniedt he likes of VR, DP, JL etc). He came up with a first year team who had to prove themselves to everybody in terms of capabilities, reliability and performance.
You yourself indicate or at leat allude that CS had shown little in terms of any level of performance prior to 2007, so go back a year and do you expect or believe that this new team, new rider all totally unproven would receive equal equipment to the factory riders.
Ok, then how would have gone in 06 on a Factory Suzi or Kwaka? Not as well as that Honda. I am alluding to his 'lack of performance shown in previous years' yes. It wasn't a lack of performance though, it was a lack of world beating, title winning, amazing smash a field of world champions in the Premier Class consistently by 10 seconds in your second year on a new bike, performance that I didn't see prior to 07
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope, and it is your very own argument that helps me out here.
In 2007 everybody, every man, woman, child and dog started afresh with the 800cc formula and as such if one factory, rider team or android got it right at the start, thence the capabiolity of decimation existed. Just as it will if/when Moto1 comes to fruition and just as it did in teh 500/Motogp transition period.
But, three years down the track and the factories that were behind have caught up (or should have - someone needs to explain Suzuki) and therefore the margins should be less just as the capabiities of the machines should be closer to equal (Suzuki - you listening). Couple this with the new tyre rules (remembering that in 2007 there was bike and possibly rider specific rubber being produced for riders) and teh playing field should be greater levelled.
Now, before you wonder why JL was thrown in the answer is that I got the CS average and for ionterest decided to compare as JL is the obvious rider (could have used Dovi in hindsight). I was actually surprised at JL as I felt the average was slightly less - go figure.
So the one rider who really got it right, over all of the rest of the riders that year is Stoner, ......... It was the combination and the technical advantages he had with the Ducati that allowed him to decimate the field as he did, otherwise he would still be decimating the field, because he would have shown us he is the best rider by developing the bike to maintain is dominance over the field now.
The others have caught up-I agree, but they shouldn't have if Stoner was as much faster as he was in 07. If he has the incredible riding talent which decimated the field in 07 then why has that not translated to multiple world titles already? Give me one reasonable explanation as to why he isn't still smashing them, he has the most experience at the sharp end on the B/S's and on the Ducati. The rider we saw in 07 should be consistently 20 seconds in front by now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>First off - huge surprise barely underscores my thoughts as the year developed and the pattern emergeD - slower to shock.
But that wasn't all CS' doing as I had seen something in his ability, but the sheer performance of the Ducati surprised me as I genuinely expected Honda/Yamaha to be the better positioned but it emerged that Ducati hit the ground running. But, they could not have been the success without the likes of Bridgestone and CS and yes I egnuinely believe that as the year wore on, the bike was developed more to CS liking (shame for Loris actually).
I did expect Ducati to provide us with more than they had prior to 07. Those apparent links to Ferrari and all, and we all know the technical ability of that company combined with the greatest WSBK manufacturer ever. However, four-wheeled racing and two still differed greatly in 02-06. The 990's still required 'MORE' serious rider input to determine results, the technical changes however in 07 gave them the opportunity they were after.
Loris is old school, and unfortunately couldn't get he head/right wrist around cracking the throttle full lean and letting the X-Box do the rest. Gen Y as we know are very good at this.
Shame though, I rate Malaysia 06 as one of the best GP's ever!!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now as to the last question - I suppose it depends on your take on things.
the GP7 was not initially developed around CS but he won on the bike - we agree
The 2008 Yamaha was developed around VR and he won on the bike - but had 2007 to further develop the 800cc bike.
Is CS a master of bike development - one woudl be hard pressed to argue conclusively that he is, was or ever will be at this stage of his career. The same question or point also applies to Suppo and in both cases only time will tell.
CS is not a master of development and VR is, and this is whole argument is it not. Should CS be given the 'SAME' amount of credit for developing the GP7 as VR for the 08M1. You just answered this above
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As a slight aside here - to give you an idea on how much of a surprise 2007 was for me I lost money (and a case of beer) in a bet. i bet that CV would finish higher than CS, moreso as I did not think that CS' style would suit the Duke and just did not expect the combination to work so well.
Yes that may seem to back your assessment or thoughts, but then, I have never said different.
this must have sucked, did he/she at least invite you around for one or two of the spoils?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To be honest the discussion was started in a series of possts between myself and VHMP where the post by VHMP when he credited Ducati/Bridgestone ad responded to my question by including VR and JB along with Yamaha/Bridgestone. It was not about bike development from my side but VHMP misunderstoon and you seem to be under teh same interpretation and have thus taken and run with it.
For me, each and every championship is a team component where a great number of variables com into play and a great number of contributors work together to produce a champion at seasons end. In all cases, those involved are responsible to the success that they have achieved and nothing should diminish that achievement nor the level of it.
Just to reiterate, I have never said that CS is the equal of VR/JB in terms of bike development but have said that he should be included in receiving credit for the 2007 WC if peopel are to include VR in credit for the 2008. It is about consistency just as it should be for comparing incidents etc on track, one must apply consistency in argument/discussion.
Yes at times personal bias will cloud and that is fine as that is when it can become fun, as has been the case with this discussion but with Donnington upon us we now have other races to move onto and discuss.
Oh yes, a final note if I may.
You will not find a southern cross tattoo anywhere near any part of my body as I am just as quick to criticise Australians if/when I feel it is deserved.
Has been fun, but will move on now and I do thank you for keeping it civil in my case as really, it is just discussion and opinion of two buttheaded stubborn mules (well, thats the way I read it)
Garry
At the end I can't agree more-here's cheers and bring on Donny tonight!!
You seem to answer above by saying that he won based on talent because others may have played a role in the development of that motorcycle (I agree with that premise actually).
If VR gets the same level of credit (which he should) then again it harks back to credit for perfomance on a machine that they may not have fully developed. See the circle.
Yes, but, the 250cc didn't experience major upheaval in technical rule changes as motoGP did in 07. So if you going to credit riders, its easier to do when massive amounts of technical factors appear to influence the results.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope but that wasn't the point.
You seem to say that the performance of CS was a surprise in terms of results - that really is not in question as it was a surprise to many. My point though is was it as 'out of the blue' or could it be seen as a possibility based upon his 2006 results. My opinion is that yes, it could have been seen if one takes full stock of his 2006 season, would anyone have really predicted it - I expect not.
Impossible to not call his complete dominance in 07 'out of the blue' 06, 05, 04 really gave us nothing. c'mon.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Luccio Cechinello has said that the tyre selection was bottom tier. It has been reported in many press stories obver the years and it does make perfect sense given the articles/discussions surrounding the Michelin tyre policy.
CS entered MotoGP with very little fanfare and a low profile (in terms of the publicity that accompaniedt he likes of VR, DP, JL etc). He came up with a first year team who had to prove themselves to everybody in terms of capabilities, reliability and performance.
You yourself indicate or at leat allude that CS had shown little in terms of any level of performance prior to 2007, so go back a year and do you expect or believe that this new team, new rider all totally unproven would receive equal equipment to the factory riders.
Ok, then how would have gone in 06 on a Factory Suzi or Kwaka? Not as well as that Honda. I am alluding to his 'lack of performance shown in previous years' yes. It wasn't a lack of performance though, it was a lack of world beating, title winning, amazing smash a field of world champions in the Premier Class consistently by 10 seconds in your second year on a new bike, performance that I didn't see prior to 07
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope, and it is your very own argument that helps me out here.
In 2007 everybody, every man, woman, child and dog started afresh with the 800cc formula and as such if one factory, rider team or android got it right at the start, thence the capabiolity of decimation existed. Just as it will if/when Moto1 comes to fruition and just as it did in teh 500/Motogp transition period.
But, three years down the track and the factories that were behind have caught up (or should have - someone needs to explain Suzuki) and therefore the margins should be less just as the capabiities of the machines should be closer to equal (Suzuki - you listening). Couple this with the new tyre rules (remembering that in 2007 there was bike and possibly rider specific rubber being produced for riders) and teh playing field should be greater levelled.
Now, before you wonder why JL was thrown in the answer is that I got the CS average and for ionterest decided to compare as JL is the obvious rider (could have used Dovi in hindsight). I was actually surprised at JL as I felt the average was slightly less - go figure.
So the one rider who really got it right, over all of the rest of the riders that year is Stoner, ......... It was the combination and the technical advantages he had with the Ducati that allowed him to decimate the field as he did, otherwise he would still be decimating the field, because he would have shown us he is the best rider by developing the bike to maintain is dominance over the field now.
The others have caught up-I agree, but they shouldn't have if Stoner was as much faster as he was in 07. If he has the incredible riding talent which decimated the field in 07 then why has that not translated to multiple world titles already? Give me one reasonable explanation as to why he isn't still smashing them, he has the most experience at the sharp end on the B/S's and on the Ducati. The rider we saw in 07 should be consistently 20 seconds in front by now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>First off - huge surprise barely underscores my thoughts as the year developed and the pattern emergeD - slower to shock.
But that wasn't all CS' doing as I had seen something in his ability, but the sheer performance of the Ducati surprised me as I genuinely expected Honda/Yamaha to be the better positioned but it emerged that Ducati hit the ground running. But, they could not have been the success without the likes of Bridgestone and CS and yes I egnuinely believe that as the year wore on, the bike was developed more to CS liking (shame for Loris actually).
I did expect Ducati to provide us with more than they had prior to 07. Those apparent links to Ferrari and all, and we all know the technical ability of that company combined with the greatest WSBK manufacturer ever. However, four-wheeled racing and two still differed greatly in 02-06. The 990's still required 'MORE' serious rider input to determine results, the technical changes however in 07 gave them the opportunity they were after.
Loris is old school, and unfortunately couldn't get he head/right wrist around cracking the throttle full lean and letting the X-Box do the rest. Gen Y as we know are very good at this.
Shame though, I rate Malaysia 06 as one of the best GP's ever!!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now as to the last question - I suppose it depends on your take on things.
the GP7 was not initially developed around CS but he won on the bike - we agree
The 2008 Yamaha was developed around VR and he won on the bike - but had 2007 to further develop the 800cc bike.
Is CS a master of bike development - one woudl be hard pressed to argue conclusively that he is, was or ever will be at this stage of his career. The same question or point also applies to Suppo and in both cases only time will tell.
CS is not a master of development and VR is, and this is whole argument is it not. Should CS be given the 'SAME' amount of credit for developing the GP7 as VR for the 08M1. You just answered this above
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As a slight aside here - to give you an idea on how much of a surprise 2007 was for me I lost money (and a case of beer) in a bet. i bet that CV would finish higher than CS, moreso as I did not think that CS' style would suit the Duke and just did not expect the combination to work so well.
Yes that may seem to back your assessment or thoughts, but then, I have never said different.
this must have sucked, did he/she at least invite you around for one or two of the spoils?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To be honest the discussion was started in a series of possts between myself and VHMP where the post by VHMP when he credited Ducati/Bridgestone ad responded to my question by including VR and JB along with Yamaha/Bridgestone. It was not about bike development from my side but VHMP misunderstoon and you seem to be under teh same interpretation and have thus taken and run with it.
For me, each and every championship is a team component where a great number of variables com into play and a great number of contributors work together to produce a champion at seasons end. In all cases, those involved are responsible to the success that they have achieved and nothing should diminish that achievement nor the level of it.
Just to reiterate, I have never said that CS is the equal of VR/JB in terms of bike development but have said that he should be included in receiving credit for the 2007 WC if peopel are to include VR in credit for the 2008. It is about consistency just as it should be for comparing incidents etc on track, one must apply consistency in argument/discussion.
Yes at times personal bias will cloud and that is fine as that is when it can become fun, as has been the case with this discussion but with Donnington upon us we now have other races to move onto and discuss.
Oh yes, a final note if I may.
You will not find a southern cross tattoo anywhere near any part of my body as I am just as quick to criticise Australians if/when I feel it is deserved.
Has been fun, but will move on now and I do thank you for keeping it civil in my case as really, it is just discussion and opinion of two buttheaded stubborn mules (well, thats the way I read it)
Garry
At the end I can't agree more-here's cheers and bring on Donny tonight!!
