Sachsenring race!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 23 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am also looking forward to donnington, which rossi will more than likely win in his current form.

You were doing so well, why throw out a bone?

Besides, its raining right? Hell, Sacky's satellite question might be answered this weekend.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 24 2009, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You were doing so well, why throw out a bone?
Partly because in all honesty rossi's recent form is of the highest calibre, partly to not challenge karma by requiring a stoner victory .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2009, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah - my turn.

Nowhere did I mention the development side, nor will I as simply put CS cannot claim to have developed the Ducati in 2007 as that was more Loris' responsibility, although through pre-season testing no doubt CS had input.

And nor will I argue about input from VR and JB into the Yamaha as despite the change to capacity the basics that made the 990cc machine the success it was would have been followed into the 800cc machine.

But, your post thanked Ducati/Bridgestone for winning the WC in 2007.

So, in a fully loaded question I asked if that then meant that Yamaha/bridgestone won in 2008. Your answer was that yes they did with Rossi/Burgess - so in essence Yamaha/Bridgestone/Rossi/Burgess won the title in 2008. Now I do not disagree with this and never have.

See, my point being that if you credit Rossi/Burgess in 2008 then you must credit Stoner and his Engineer (name escapes me) in 2007. Failure to do so whilst crediting Rossi/Burgess for 2008 shows a distinct bias or lack of understanding of the situation as there was a rider in 2007 as well who had to make the most of the equipment and pilot the bike.

Now, you say that in 2008 VR/JB have to be credited as they had developed the Yamaha to be the machine it had become. But they had not had time to develop that Yamaha for the Bridgestone tyres and as such VR had a slow start to the year but certainly, once they got ther path identified they really shot off.

Now, if you say that JB/VR are responsible for 2008, does it then, make Stoners win it 2007 even more meritorious than some credit?

If I extend your logic, in 2007 Stoner was on tyres not developed for or by him, on a bike not developed for of by him and in an all new category of 800cc machines after just one year in the top flight (really though - experience in top flight is little relevance). Yet despite all this he won the WC convincingly - some say luckily, some say that the Ducati won it and Stoner simply sat on it and others say that the title was won by Ducati/Bridgestone.

Garry

After all this going and coming, I still think Ducati got it right first time around in 800cc, which nor Honda, nor Yamaha did. Ducati which was created with riders input (mainly Capirossi, but also Gibernau, Bayliss, etc.) in conjunction with Brigestones before Stoner’s came in. It was a great machine, great combination with tyres, to start and even before the start of 2007. And then it had to be ridden by someone that started to give his input after riding the bike, but NOT before. Bike which did not change radically until 2008 now with Stoner’s input, who wan 2007. On the other hand Rossi/Burgues/Yamaha had to work on development, before the bike was even built, for over a year to get it right, which by 2008 they did.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jul 23 2009, 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is just ignorant. I've seen 200lb guys in good shape - struggle to pick up a tipped over
bike in their driveway. Doing it in a sliding gravel trap, after 30 laps at Laguna in 100 degree
heat is nothing short of nightmare.
But doing it when the tires have digged in/down the soft gravel while the clip on/tank/seat were resting on the harder surface closer to the track it suddenly gets wery doable. It only takes a few degrees of help to make that task so much easier. Goes for his footing too that were also on the solid part.

Besides, adrenaline is a fantastic drug. I've done things to get out on track again that I would never be able to repeat on command.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 24 2009, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But doing it when the tires have digged in/down the soft gravel while the clip on/tank/seat were resting on the harder surface closer to the track it suddenly gets wery doable. It only takes a few degrees of help to make that task so much easier. Goes for his footing too that were also on the solid part.

Besides, adrenaline is a fantastic drug. I've done things to get out on track again that I would never be able to repeat on command.

Hey B-Fish - Didn't say it was impossible. But after 30 laps of battling with
the Goat in 100 degree temperatures - impressive. Stoner has the will to win.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 21 2009, 04:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>SoD, seriously man. it's not worth getting worked up. i came to the conclusion a LONG time ago that roger is just a ..... straight up. not really worth going back and forth with him.

jumkie. your right. it's easy to go back and search through and find things to rebuttle some of the bs. but why even waste the time and effort? i don't have time for that crap. i have kids, career and RIDING/RACING/INSTRUCTING to do. i enjoy wathcing the races. just wish i enjoyed more of the posting that goes on here. there is some good info that comes out on this forum, which is why i stick around. i do enjoy some of the stuff that gets posted, but the "fishing" and banter gets carried away. j4no, you, gaz, and gsfan to name a few are great contributors.

tom, i know exactly what you're saying. anyone who mentions themselves in third person is WAY to full of themselves in my book. and he does it on a regular basis.

it's all good to have your favorite rider, but a few have taken it to the point of being ridiculous, and just straight up being an .... ohhhh rossi is sooo great. let's root for him because its ....... EASY. what is it i hear all the time? "i wouldn't bet against him".
jesus h you fuckers "whinged" about it after casey won it in 07. good lord. pot - kettle - black. can't wait til he retires. lol. not because i want to see him go. i just can't wait for his fans to.

great race though. really enjoyed it. nice to see the front 4 really dicing it up for awhile. looking forward to donny.

and hayden. .... ya dude. was cheering for you the entire time! can't wait to see what you can do next go around.

cheers.

-dj
Well come on Danny boy. the question was asked be several members about your racing / instruction. you even put it in caps to get our attention. yet 8 pages have past with no answer, please do tell sniff sniff bs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 24 2009, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>After all this going and coming, I still think Ducati got it right first time around in 800cc, which nor Honda, nor Yamaha did. Ducati which was created with riders input (mainly Capirossi, but also Gibernau, Bayliss, etc.) in conjunction with Brigestones before Stoner’s came in. It was a great machine, great combination with tyres, to start and even before the start of 2007. And then it had to be ridden by someone that started to give his input after riding the bike, but NOT before. Bike which did not change radically until 2008 now with Stoner’s input, who wan 2007. On the other hand Rossi/Burgues/Yamaha had to work on development, before the bike was even built, for over a year to get it right, which by 2008 they did.


It has been fun but I do not think you are seeing my point.

I am not mentioning development of various bikes - you are.

You mentioned that in 2007 the combination of Ducati/Bridgestone won the WC omitting to mention other important factors.

So when asked if Yamaha/Bridgeston won in 2008 you answered yes but included a Ross/Burgess combination in that as (in your thoughts and words) they had developed the bike that allowedt hem to win in 2008.

To put it simply, your comment for 2007 did not and still do not credit Stoner or any other, yet you are quick to credit Rossi for winning the world championship when the exact same question/statement is put to you. For me, if one gets credit one year the converse is correct and the other should also get credit for their year.

Now, I do not bring development into this as irrespective of who developed the bike, a rider and technician must make necessary setting adjustments in order for that rider to get the best from the machine at that given time.

You see, your argumanet now seems to be that because Stoner played no part in development of the 2007 800cc Ducati then he is not 'responsible' for the WC as thet sheets back to the previous years riders.

So, who was responsible for Rossi's first WC on the Yamaha (as in, who and which riders developed the bike)?

See, if you say Rossi than that directly conflicts your views on Stoner in 2007 as if VR played a role in 2006 then surely CS played a role in 2007.

If you say other riders and not VR it goes against your obvious idolistion of VR (not having a dig either), not forgetting that both riders (CS and VR) won their first races on the new machines. Yes, VR had remained on Michelins but going from a V5 vonfiguration to a sinline 4 will have different characterics and use tyres diefferently at this level, thus the same tyres that worked on the Honda may not have worked on tha Yamaha.

See my point and argument is basically give credit where it id due. Do not omit when that omission does not carry across to other situations that you use as an example.

In my opinion it is true that CS played little in way of developing the Ducati for season start 2007, but he played a large part by seasons end. In 2008 VR had an extra year on the Yamaha but started afresh with no data on the Bridgestone and throughout the year developed the bike to suit the tyres (remember the axle being pused back in the swingarm post). So in many ways either both riders deserve full praise or neither do - and to say neither do is, well with due respect to all pure lunacy.

By the way, none of this is personal so please do not take it that way as I actually enjoy your posts which tenmd to be quite interesting and well thought out.




EDIT: Corrected a few typos and Stoner's 2007 bike





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 24 2009, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It has been fun but I do not think you are seeing my point.

I am not mentioning development of various bikes - you are.

You mentioned that in 2007 the combination of Ducati/Bridgestone won the WC omitting to mention other important factors.

So when asked if Yamaha/Bridgeston won in 2008 you answered yes but included a Ross/Burgess combination in that as (in your thoughts and words) they had developed the bike that allowedt hem to win in 2008.

To put it simply, your comment for 2007 did not and still do not credit Stoner or any other, yet you are quick to credit Rossi for winning the world championship when the exact same question/statement is put to you. For me, if one gets credit one year the concerse is correct and the other should also get credit for their year.

Now, I do not bring development into this as irrespective of who developed the bike, a rider and technician must make necessary setting adjustments in order for that rider to get the best from the machine at that given time.

You see, your argumanet now seems to be that because Stoner played no part in development of the 2007 800cc Yamaha then he is not 'responsible' for the WC as thet sheets back to the previous years riders.

So, who was responsible for Rossi's first WC on the Yamaha (as in, who and which riders developed the bike)?

See, if you say Rossi than that directly conflicts your views on Stoner in 2007 as if VR played a role in 2006 then surely CS played a role in 2007.

If you say other riders and not VR it goes against your obvious idolistion of VR (not having a dig either), not forgetting that both riders (CS and VR) won their first races on the new machines. Yes, VR had remained on Michelins but going from a V5 vonfiguration to a sinline 4 will have different characterics and use tyres diefferently at this level, thus the same tyres that worked on the Honda may not have worked on tha Yamaha.

See my point and argument is basically give credit where it id due. Do not omit when that omission does not carry across to other situations that you use as an example.

In my opinion it is true that CS played little in way of developing the Ducati for season start 2007, but he played a large part by seasons end. In 2008 VR had an extra year on the Yamaha but started afresh with no data on the Bridgestone and throughout the year developed the bike to suit the tyres (remember the axle being pused back in the swingarm post). So in many ways either both riders deserve full praise or neither do - and to say neither do is, well with due respect to all pure lunacy.

By the way, none of this is personal so please do not take it that way as I actually enjoy your posts which tenmd to be quite interesting and well thought out.

Garry

Of course I don’t take it personal Garry, it’s all part of debating and exchange of ideas, which makes us learn (who ever chooses to) more about each other. Thanks for that mate.

On our topic, if most rules changed now, mainly into 750 or 1000cc… more realistic Moto2… some Manufactures will get it right on the first go, and some wont, it’s no guaranty that the ones with the most recourses (Honda) would be the ones.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 25 2009, 01:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>On our topic, if most rules changed now, mainly into 750 or 1000cc… more realistic Moto2… some Manufactures will get it right on the first go, and some wont, it’s no guaranty that the ones with the most recourses (Honda) would be the ones.

Totally agree and it is this uncertainty as well as the 800cc precedent of Ducati that makes things so damn interesting and has me anticipating quite happily.

It would be so good to see an underdog produce something special and I feel that the Moto2 rules may ensure this happens at times where a 'small;' concern can outdo the bigmoney boys. Well I hope anyway.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To put it simply, your comment for 2007 did not and still do not credit Stoner or any other, yet you are quick to credit Rossi for winning the world championship when the exact same question/statement is put to you. For me, if one gets credit one year the converse is correct and the other should also get credit for their year.

Now, I do not bring development into this as irrespective of who developed the bike, a rider and technician must make necessary setting adjustments in order for that rider to get the best from the machine at that given time.

You see, your argumanet now seems to be that because Stoner played no part in development of the 2007 800cc Ducati then he is not 'responsible' for the WC as thet sheets back to the previous years riders.

So, who was responsible for Rossi's first WC on the Yamaha (as in, who and which riders developed the bike)?

So in many ways either both riders deserve full praise or neither do - and to say neither do is, well with due respect to all pure lunacy.

By the way, none of this is personal so please do not take it that way as I actually enjoy your posts which tenmd to be quite interesting and well thought out.




EDIT: Corrected a few typos and Stoner's 2007 bike





Garry


some points to be added here

In 2004 it can be fair to say that 'Rider Aids' were far less prevalent, correct me if I'm wrong....
so adding 04 to this debate is almost like comparing different era's. Most people would agree that Rider & Premier Class experience were far more important back then, just ask Nicky, as you didn't see young riders come in and perform at the levels they do now or did in 07-08. I'm sure you couldn't have held the throttle full open, full lean mid corner, in the wet at Donni on the 04 M1 or the 04 RC2 11V most certainly not on the 04 Desmo!

One of the main reasons why it is easy for anyone to make this kind of assumption, is that the CS and Duck Combo was far beyond dominant in 07, they really decimated the field, which neither bike, tyres nor rider had shown 'real' signs of being capable of, or done before. This would suggest that the Technical changes were having a greater influence on the result. In 08 it was certainly not the case, Stoner was consistently quicker than Rossi throughout 08 but fell well short of defending the title.


You need to give credit where its due too. VR and JB have proven time and time again, year after year for a long time now that they deserve credit for Developing anything they touch into a WC winning machine. Stoner and Suppo do not have this record, so of course its much harder to give them the same amount of credit.

I think they (VR/JB) are the only people (Other than Bike/Tyre Manufacturers and God! Maybe Jumkie) in the field who have the resumes to be credited with having a 'seriously influential effect' on the outcome of the WC at present.

Speaking of different eras I'll add this- and here's where it gets really tricky-

Can we credit Alex Crivelle's world title win in 1999 down to his development/performance as a rider to the same extent as Micks development/performance contributions through 1994-98? Clearly not, as Alex never went on to multiple world titles with different models of machine and challengers. Mick and Alex were not on the same level. VR and CS are not on the same level (At Present)

We'll have to see with CS, but for now the 07 WC win 'credit' needs to be split into a different ratio than the 08.
I wouldn't exclude CS's input in 07, that would be silly, its just can't be as important until he has 7 more world titles.....

If ducati did build a significantly better mousetrap in 2007 I would see it as great achievement by them against the financial and engineering might of honda and yamaha, particularly given that they were the only manufacturer to oppose the 800cc formula.

They then would also have to take blame for the early part of 2008 when the bike was seriously awry, to the extent they had to go back to the 2007 engine; whilst ducati have been known to take wrong directions in the past without his assisistance, it is possible that stoner's input was contributory to this.

I agree that developmental ability is one of the most important attributes of the great riders, and obviously necessary for repeated success; neither stoner nor lorenzo, nor dani that I can see, have thus far demonstrated exceptional talent in this regard.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 24 2009, 10:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>After all this going and coming, I still think Ducati got it right first time around in 800cc...

My dear friend, you've said this several times now, but explain this, eliminate Stoner, the rider, and your argument fails completely(not half way but completely)! What does this say about this ongoing idea of Ducati advantage? Answer: It doesn't exist, it is a figment of the imagination. (See results of all other Ducati's combined.)

"Ducati" as a constructor, would have been at par with Kawasaki, hell they would have had a constructors position like Suzuki (and that is a hard to do, a feat only accomplished by Kawasaki). Put it this way, would you be making the same argument if Kawasaki would have fielded 4 bikes but had the same results of the other rider not named "Stoner"? (As they did in their short stint in MotoGP)? How about Suzuki had they had 4 bikes? Would you have been saying, as you have above, "Kawasaki/Suzuki got it right?" (Keep in mind now, eliminate Stoner because this is where your entire argument hinges). That would be crazy, right? So no, I don't now, nor have ever, bought the argument that "Ducati" got anything right, in fact, they still haven't! Eliminate Stoner, the man, from your equation and it will reveal to you the correct answer! This is the crux, the gist, the main idea, the essence, of the entire argument.

V or anybody, can you see your entire argument HINGES on one rider named Stoner? You cannot make your argument based (using sound logic) if you were to base it on all the other Ducatis combined. Can you see the inherent folly of your position? Its tantamount to picking the worst rider on a Yamaha this year, then saying, ‘ah ha; the Yamahas are crap’. Absurd right? Not very good logic. But here you insist on doing the same thing; you insist on picking one rider, ONE, and then declaring "Ducati got it right." Can you see it’s the same as looking at JT, ONE rider, and making the same assessment about Yamaha? Sound logic? NO. And this has been the point since day one, its about Stoner’s ability to ride the machine not the other way around!

"Ducati got it right>>> NO! MYTH DEBUNKED. (case closed)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 02:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You need to give credit where its due too. VR and JB have proven time and time again, year after year for a long time now that they deserve credit for Developing anything they touch into a WC winning machine. Stoner and Suppo do not have this record, so of course its much harder to give them the same amount of credit.

Why is it harder - no seriously, why?

I would expect that to develop a machine into a WC winning bike is as hard for a first time win as it would be for someone with 7 - 8 wins.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 02:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think they (VR/JB) are the only people (Other than Bike/Tyre Manufacturers and God! Maybe Jumkie) in the field who have the resumes to be credited with having a 'seriously influential effect' on the outcome of the WC at present.

Now this is tricky as it is purely a matter of opinion and does hinge on your meaning of outcome at his point but I believe that CS, JL and DP are having as large an impact at this point in time. To say that they are not as influential in the outcome at this point of time is to basically ask why they are there.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 02:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Speaking of different eras I'll add this- and here's where it gets really tricky-

Can we credit Alex Crivelle's world title win in 1999 down to his development/performance as a rider to the same extent as Micks development/performance contributions through 1994-98? Clearly not, as Alex never went on to multiple world titles with different models of machine and challengers. Mick and Alex were not on the same level. VR and CS are not on the same level (At Present)

But, Alex is a multiple WC and actually has more World Titles than has CS (1 x 125cc, 1 x 500cc) so to sell him short may well be a disservice. But to use your argument and take it a bit further (and bear with my licence I will take).

Now, your point seems to be that CS' title is somehow 'worth less' because they/he played no role in the development of that bike prior to arriving on and riding it. You seem to begrudgingly give credit to the fact he still had to ride it, but the impression I get is that it seems to somehow be worth less.

Now you mention Criville so I will go that way.

VR came to 500cc racing in the year 2000 and rode a machine that had been (using your logic) not developed by or for him. This machine he rode to second place in the championship before he then won the WC in 2001 on the NSR. Now, it could be arguable that he played little role in developing the 2001 NSR as he was not part of the official factory squad and as such he did not infact develop the bike - my opinion is that the entire 2001 bike was built around him.

Subsequent to 2001 he graduated to MotoGP and the era of the four-stroke where Rossi won first year out. But who developed this bike and who deserves responsibility as there was no precedent?

For mine, it was again VR and JB.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 02:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We'll have to see with CS, but for now the 07 WC win 'credit' needs to be split into a different ratio than the 08.
I wouldn't exclude CS's input in 07, that would be silly, its just can't be as important until he has 7 more world titles.....

So, on your logic what is the 'credit' due to VR for the 125cc and 250cc titles as the question is whether the bike was developed by, for and around him in these years.


See it seems that for some CS came out of the blue in 2007 but in 2006 were it not for DP on the factory Repsol bike Stoner would have won the rookie title on what is accepted to be a low second tier Honda. In fact, that year CS had more championship points (119) than current MotoGP riders Elias (116), Vermuelen (98), Gibernau (95) although admittedly now out, DePuniet (37) and the muchh discussed Hopkins (116).

This means that on a satellite Honda, with low level Michelin tyres in a team having their first year in MotoGP with little real factory support Stoner finished in front of both Factory Suzuki's, Both Factory Kawasaki's and a host of other riders. All this despite his often criticised DNF's and DNS which totalled 7 in all.

So, if you look at it, in his first year one could say that he averaged 11.6 points per race completed/finished (not a true indication as first you must finish) which means an average finishing position of 5th (in theory). To me, first time out on a new bike, in a new category, new tyres and a new team I would say impressive. As a comparison JL in 2008 averaged better at 14+ points per completed race (lets say 4th) on a factory bike and probably with top or very near top tyres but using old Michelin data (again, very impressive) whilst operating in effectively a solo team.

So to say that in truth CS came from the blue belies what he achieved in 2006 as he was impressive and did come to much notice (not just because of the crashes).

Look, I doubt that our opinions are really going to match but for me a WC is a WC and whether it be KRjc, Criville, Doohan, Rossi, Stoner or anyone, it is a remarkable achievement and due credit should be given irrespective of the circumstances.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 24 2009, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"Ducati got it right>>> NO! MYTH DEBUNKED. (case closed)

So, by this logic, I can take Stoner, put him on a Yamaha and he shouldn't lose a race?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jul 24 2009, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, by this logic, I can take Stoner, put him on a Yamaha and he shouldn't lose a race?

Is there some mystery in this logic you don't understand? Its quite simple. I explained it above. What point specific are you having problems understanding? Show me where the above logic fails. If you believe that Rossi is an outstanding rider (which you should), and you accept that he is making a very good machine win, then I don't see why you wouldn't accept Stoner (an outstanding rider) win just the same. Your question is rather unreasonable, since not even Rossi, considered by many, the best rider ever, hasn't had a perfect season yet. So your question is rather irrational; but even then, I still managed to answer it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why is it harder - no seriously, why?

Because Suppo and Stoner had no WC before 07, and Rossi and Burgess have 20 odd between them!

Isn't the key to winning multiple WC's bike development? So if you are to put them in the same boat and give them the same credit (Development wise) then Stoner should have won the title in 08 even more easily again......no?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would expect that to develop a machine into a WC winning bike is as hard for a first time win as it would be for someone with 7 - 8 wins.

I would expect it to be harder!!! So who gets the Lyons share of credit for the 07 WC, Stoner and Suppo who have never developed a WC winning machine/won a world title
or Ducati for building a world beater 1st go
or Bridgestone for testing compounds at freshly re-surfaced circuits, while the arrogant French just expected Rossi to win.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now this is tricky as it is purely a matter of opinion and does hinge on your meaning of outcome at his point but I believe that CS, JL and DP are having as large an impact at this point in time. To say that they are not as influential in the outcome at this point of time is to basically ask why they are there.

My point was in relation to WC winning bike development, not current rider standings. Is JL and his team as influential at WC winning bike development as VR/JB at present? The discussion is on Credit for WC winning bike development is it not?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But, Alex is a multiple WC and actually has more World Titles than has CS (1 x 125cc, 1 x 500cc) so to sell him short may well be a disservice. But to use your argument and take it a bit further (and bear with my licence I will take).

Now, your point seems to be that CS' title is somehow 'worth less' because they/he played no role in the development of that bike prior to arriving on and riding it. You seem to begrudgingly give credit to the fact he still had to ride it, but the impression I get is that it seems to somehow be worth less.

My point, if I have to say it again, is that it is more difficult to give CS the same amount of credit for WC winning bike development as he does not have the record of VR-very simple. How much of a role did CS play in developing the GP7 before the season? I don't know, but I do know how much of a role JB and VR have had in developing WC winning bikes-its written on the score board for all who care to look.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now you mention Criville so I will go that way.

VR came to 500cc racing in the year 2000 and rode a machine that had been (using your logic) not developed by or for him. This machine he rode to second place in the championship before he then won the WC in 2001 on the NSR. Now, it could be arguable that he played little role in developing the 2001 NSR as he was not part of the official factory squad and as such he did not infact develop the bike - my opinion is that the entire 2001 bike was built around him.

He finished 2nd, not first. And he didn't win most of his races that year by 5-10 seconds or more as CS did in 07. Despite being a 125 and 250cc Champion (as CS wasn't) and being on the all-conquering NSR and with VR's talent JB and MD in the pits, Rossi should have won-right?
Wrong again, winning on a 500cc two-stroke in your first season was/is known as one of the hardest things to do in motorsport. No rider aids, 180+unpredictable horsepower, 130 odd kilos of bike.
This brings me back to my point of Prevalence of rider aids having more of an influence in determining results, If no other multiple WC, out of all the greats we've had, could come into the championship and decimate the field as a relative rookie, how is it that Stoner can? To say that he deserves the same credit for Bike development as VR/JB essentially means that he is more talented than any rider before-Ever!

Anyway, if Alex was as good of a WC winning bike developer as MD then why didn't he win the 2000 WC or 01 and many more, in 2000 he finished 9th with 1 win and 1 other podium, compared to 6 wins in 1999 and 4 other podiums? 2001 he had 0 wins, 2 podiums and finished 8th, despite being on the, as you call it, already developed factory repsol Honda. Do you think a Health MD would share this record if he hung around.....me thinks not

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, on your logic what is the 'credit' due to VR for the 125cc and 250cc titles as the question is whether the bike was developed by, for and around him in these years.

I never said that, you've assumed that because I believe that VR/JB are in a league of their own in regards to WC winning bike development now, then they've always deserved more credit than anyone else for it....Silly assumption dodging the real issue for the sake of argument. As we all know VR won both smaller class titles on the mighty Aprilia, which was also ridden by many other talented riders back then.
Then it would be fair to assume that VR won these WC's due to his talent as MANY of his rivals (including Harada and Loris on a Honda)back then were on the same, already developed bike, in a format which had been around for years with little or no technical changes like the ones we saw in the Premier Class in 07. Need I remind you that CS never won a 250cc or 125cc title despite numerous attempts at it with that same format relatively unchanged.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>See it seems that for some CS came out of the blue in 2007 but in 2006 were it not for DP on the factory Repsol bike Stoner would have won the rookie title on what is accepted to be a low second tier Honda. In fact, that year CS had more championship points (119) than current MotoGP riders Elias (116), Vermuelen (98), Gibernau (95) although admittedly now out, DePuniet (37) and the muchh discussed Hopkins (116).

But he didn't get the rookie of the year, did he? He Crashed, a lot!! He got some points, a few more than some and a lot less than others, on a bike which was certainly quick enough to score pole at Qatar, couldn't have been too second tier! So it doesn't matter how you twist it, to come out and decimate the field in 07 was a Farcking Surprise to everyone. Even to those with The Southern Cross tattooed to their lower leg, though some still won't admit it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This means that on a satellite Honda, with low level Michelin tyres in a team having their first year in MotoGP with little real factory support Stoner finished in front of both Factory Suzuki's, Both Factory Kawasaki's and a host of other riders. All this despite his often criticised DNF's and DNS which totalled 7 in all.

How do you know which Michelins he had? How do you know how much factory support he had compared to others, many would say based on fact and results, even Hondas so-called second-tier support and bike is still ahead of Suzi and Kawaka's full factory help.
He finished behind-2 factory Yamaha's, 2 factory Hondas and a half-cripple on a Factory Ducati who missed a few rounds.....7 DNF's one year to decimating the Field the next, you said it yourself.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, if you look at it, in his first year one could say that he averaged 11.6 points per race completed/finished (not a true indication as first you must finish) which means an average finishing position of 5th (in theory). To me, first time out on a new bike, in a new category, new tyres and a new team I would say impressive. As a comparison JL in 2008 averaged better at 14+ points per completed race (lets say 4th) on a factory bike and probably with top or very near top tyres but using old Michelin data (again, very impressive) whilst operating in effectively a solo team.

So JL last year, based on your logic, had a similar strike rate as CS in 06 all things considered......So then based on your logic, JL should be decimating the field now by 10-15 seconds each race, they should be greater margins Casey's in 07, as his riding talent should be far in excess of VR's with one year on the M1 already. This is what Casey did to them in 07-right? If JL were to be performing like CS did in 07, he would have smashed CS and VR in most rounds this year already....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So to say that in truth CS came from the blue belies what he achieved in 2006 as he was impressive and did come to much notice (not just because of the crashes).

2007 was a huge surprise, admit it, it really was out of the blue. You don't come into MotoGP and absolutely hammer Legends of the sport in their prime, only to lose the following year. Do you really expect people to place him in the same category as VR when it comes to WC winning bike development? Really??? Come on

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Look, I doubt that our opinions are really going to match but for me a WC is a WC and whether it be KRjc, Criville, Doohan, Rossi, Stoner or anyone, it is a remarkable achievement and due credit should be given irrespective of the circumstances.

I did give due credit, but this discussion is about credit for Developing WC winning Motorcycle prototypes is it not? We must have levels here; placing CS/Suppo in the same basket as VR/JB when it comes to developing WC winning bikes is seriously detracting from Rossi's and Burgess es phenomenal achievements-
for me its that simple, and I'm sure you'll disagree, but before you do, take a real long hard look at the scoreboard first!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Because Suppo and Stoner had no WC before 07, and Rossi and Burgess have 20 odd between them!

Isn't the key to winning multiple WC's bike development? So if you are to put them in the same boat and give them the same credit (Development wise) then Stoner should have won the title in 08 even more easily again......no?

You see, here we go againn - same circle same argument.

I don't give a right royal rats about who developed the wind turnine or who deserves most respect for developing a WC winning bike in 2007 or 2008 but to assert as you seem to be that CS WC is less somehow because he played no part in developing (your words) the 2007 title winning Ducati is (IMO) absurd.

It would be the same as saying that VR's 2004 success be diminished because JB nor VR played a part in developing the 2004 Yamaha because they were not on a Yamaha the year previously.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would expect it to be harder!!! So who gets the Lyons share of credit for the 07 WC, Stoner and Suppo who have never developed a WC winning machine/won a world title or Ducati for building a world beater 1st go
or Bridgestone for testing compounds at freshly re-surfaced circuits, while the arrogant French just expected Rossi to win.

As I have always argued, said and typed - the title was won in 2007 by the package of Stoner/Ducati/Brisgestone and associated team (Suppo etc).

To me, a rider cannot individually win a race, yet alone a title without the efforts of a great number of conrtibutors. Have always said that and will always, and that is why I argue that CS deserves to be included in the credit being given for winning the 2007 title - do you agree or disagree?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My point was in relation to WC winning bike development, not current rider standings. Is JL and his team as influential at WC winning bike development as VR/JB at present? The discussion is on Credit for WC winning bike development is it not?

Hard to say in many ways as there are articles that have been quited here saying that at times in season 2009 VR has made us of JL's settings and vice versa.

But, were I to say who is most responsible for the position in which Yamaha find themselves if we are to look at the most likely scenario it would be the work of VR/JB last year in setting the Yamaha up to make best use of the Brisgestone tyres. Does this diminish JL's input, to me no way as we do not know if he is using the same settings and given recent comments from himself (ie. VR prefers front bias/JL rearwards) then the settings would be different. But yes, I can accept that VR/JB have played a massive part in the Yamaha being where it is, but you will also not that I have not said differently.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My point, if I have to say it again, is that it is more difficult to give CS the same amount of credit for WC winning bike development as he does not have the record of VR-very simple. How much of a role did CS play in developing the GP7 before the season? I don't know, but I do know how much of a role JB and VR have had in developing WC winning bikes-its written on the score board for all who care to look.....

The 2007 GP7 is a relative unknown and it is accepted wisdom that at the start of the year the bike was primarily developed around Capirossi but as the year wore on, it does appear as though the bike became more focused around CS.

You seem focused on the fact that JB/VR have a lot of championships between them which is a no-brainer, but why does that discredit anyone else?

That is where I struggle as I just cannot see why one world title should mean any less than 10.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He finished 2nd, not first. And he didn't win most of his races that year by 5-10 seconds or more as CS did in 07. Despite being a 125 and 250cc Champion (as CS wasn't) and being on the all-conquering NSR and with VR's talent JB and MD in the pits, Rossi should have won-right?
Wrong again, winning on a 500cc two-stroke in your first season was/is known as one of the hardest things to do in motorsport. No rider aids, 180+unpredictable horsepower, 130 odd kilos of bike.

Oops, my bad then, but do I actually say that he enetered thw WC in 2000 and finished second that year and finished first in 2001. That is correct is it not - you do seem to back that up.

The 500cc machine were for me the pinnacle and absolute weapons to ride. Anyone who could ride these things are phenomenol athlets and extremely gutsy as they are the era that I have so enjoyed and remain so until today. I will regularly look at old footage of that era and marvel as well as long for those times which today we simply do not get to see.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This brings me back to my point of Prevalence of rider aids having more of an influence in determining results, If no other multiple WC, out of all the greats we've had, could come into the championship and decimate the field as a relative rookie, how is it that Stoner can? To say that he deserves the same credit for Bike development as VR/JB essentially means that he is more talented than any rider before-Ever!

Well, I have never said he deserves the same level of credit for bike development, you do seem to think that I do and have been but I suggest you may want to re-read it.

What I say is that if VR/JB deserve a level of credit along with Yamaha and Bridgestone for their 2008 WC, whay then does CS and Suppor not deserver credit for their 2008 WC?

Now let me ask this, obviously in your eyes Stoner deserves little if any credit - is that about right - for bike development at all. But how does he get accepted if he must win multiple championships as to win championships he must first develop the bike. Further if Suppo is not in the league of Burgess than how does Suppo get into that league?

Obviously more championships is your judgement factor - is that right?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Anyway, if Alex was as good of a WC winning bike developer as MD then why didn't he win the 2000 WC or 01 and many more, in 2000 he finished 9th with 1 win and 1 other podium, compared to 6 wins in 1999 and 4 other podiums? 2001 he had 0 wins, 2 podiums and finished 8th, despite being on the, as you call it, already developed factory repsol Honda. Do you think a Health MD would share this record if he hung around.....me thinks not

Well in 2000 he had injuries and in 2001 suffered the injury that eventually ended his career.

But converse - if VR was as good as you claim (insurpassable) then why did he not win in 206/7?

Again, re-read what I have posted and nowhere do I claim that Criville was a great development rider, but your premise seems to be that in order to claim credit for developing a bike, one must have ridden or had input the previous year.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I never said that, you've assumed that because I believe that VR/JB are in a league of their own in regards to WC winning bike development now, then they've always deserved more credit than anyone else for it....Silly assumption dodging the real issue for the sake of argument. As we all know VR won both smaller class titles on the mighty Aprilia, which was also ridden by many other talented riders back then.
Then it would be fair to assume that VR won these WC's due to his talent as MANY of his rivals (including Harada and Loris on a Honda)back then were on the same, already developed bike, in a format which had been around for years with little or no technical changes like the ones we saw in the Premier Class in 07. Need I remind you that CS never won a 250cc or 125cc title despite numerous attempts at it with that same format relatively unchanged.

God, I responded a while back so I may have forgotten the message behind the post but it was more along the lines of your point that to be truly credited for a WC one must have played a role in teh development of that motorcycle (lets leave JB out of teh 125/250 discussion). This my question was does he get equal credit (in your eyes) for the 125 and 250cc titles?

You seem to answer above by saying that he won based on talent because others may have played a role in the development of that motorcycle (I agree with that premise actually).

If VR gets the same level of credit (which he should) then again it harks back to credit for perfomance on a machine that they may not have fully developed. See the circle.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But he didn't get the rookie of the year, did he? He Crashed, a lot!! He got some points, a few more than some and a lot less than others, on a bike which was certainly quick enough to score pole at Qatar, couldn't have been too second tier! So it doesn't matter how you twist it, to come out and decimate the field in 07 was a Farcking Surprise to everyone. Even to those with The Southern Cross tattooed to their lower leg, though some still won't admit it.

Nope but that wasn't the point.

You seem to say that the performance of CS was a surprise in terms of results - that really is not in question as it was a surprise to many. My point though is was it as 'out of the blue' or could it be seen as a possibility based upon his 2006 results. My opinion is that yes, it could have been seen if one takes full stock of his 2006 season, would anyone have really predicted it - I expect not.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How do you know which Michelins he had? How do you know how much factory support he had compared to others, many would say based on fact and results, even Hondas so-called second-tier support and bike is still ahead of Suzi and Kawaka's full factory help.
He finished behind-2 factory Yamaha's, 2 factory Hondas and a half-cripple on a Factory Ducati who missed a few rounds.....7 DNF's one year to decimating the Field the next, you said it yourself.

Luccio Cechinello has said that the tyre selection was bottom tier. It has been reported in many press stories obver the years and it does make perfect sense given the articles/discussions surrounding the Michelin tyre policy.

CS entered MotoGP with very little fanfare and a low profile (in terms of the publicity that accompaniedt he likes of VR, DP, JL etc). He came up with a first year team who had to prove themselves to everybody in terms of capabilities, reliability and performance.

You yourself indicate or at leat allude that CS had shown little in terms of any level of performance prior to 2007, so go back a year and do you expect or believe that this new team, new rider all totally unproven would receive equal equipment to the factory riders.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So JL last year, based on your logic, had a similar strike rate as CS in 06 all things considered......So then based on your logic, JL should be decimating the field now by 10-15 seconds each race, they should be greater margins Casey's in 07, as his riding talent should be far in excess of VR's with one year on the M1 already. This is what Casey did to them in 07-right? If JL were to be performing like CS did in 07, he would have smashed CS and VR in most rounds this year already....

Nope, and it is your very own argument that helps me out here.

In 2007 everybody, every man, woman, child and dog started afresh with the 800cc formula and as such if one factory, rider team or android got it right at the start, thence the capabiolity of decimation existed. Just as it will if/when Moto1 comes to fruition and just as it did in teh 500/Motogp transition period.

But, three years down the track and the factories that were behind have caught up (or should have - someone needs to explain Suzuki) and therefore the margins should be less just as the capabiities of the machines should be closer to equal (Suzuki - you listening). Couple this with the new tyre rules (remembering that in 2007 there was bike and possibly rider specific rubber being produced for riders) and teh playing field should be greater levelled.

Now, before you wonder why JL was thrown in the answer is that I got the CS average and for ionterest decided to compare as JL is the obvious rider (could have used Dovi in hindsight). I was actually surprised at JL as I felt the average was slightly less - go figure.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2007 was a huge surprise, admit it, it really was out of the blue. You don't come into MotoGP and absolutely hammer Legends of the sport in their prime, only to lose the following year. Do you really expect people to place him in the same category as VR when it comes to WC winning bike development? Really??? Come on

First off - huge surprise barely underscores my thoughts as the year developed and the pattern emergeD - slower to shock.

But that wasn't all CS' doing as I had seen something in his ability, but the sheer performance of the Ducati surprised me as I genuinely expected Honda/Yamaha to be the better positioned but it emerged that Ducati hit the ground running. But, they could not have been the success without the likes of Bridgestone and CS and yes I egnuinely believe that as the year wore on, the bike was developed more to CS liking (shame for Loris actually).

Now as to the last question - I suppose it depends on your take on things.

the GP7 was not initially developed around CS but he won on the bike - we agree

The 2008 Yamaha was developed around VR and he won on the bike - but had 2007 to further develop the 800cc bike.

Is CS a master of bike development - one woudl be hard pressed to argue conclusively that he is, was or ever will be at this stage of his career. The same question or point also applies to Suppo and in both cases only time will tell.


As a slight aside here - to give you an idea on how much of a surprise 2007 was for me I lost money (and a case of beer) in a bet. i bet that CV would finish higher than CS, moreso as I did not think that CS' style would suit the Duke and just did not expect the combination to work so well.

Yes that may seem to back your assessment or thoughts, but then, I have never said different.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 25 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I did give due credit, but this discussion is about credit for Developing WC winning Motorcycle prototypes is it not? We must have levels here; placing CS/Suppo in the same basket as VR/JB when it comes to developing WC winning bikes is seriously detracting from Rossi's and Burgess es phenomenal achievements-
for me its that simple, and I'm sure you'll disagree, but before you do, take a real long hard look at the scoreboard first!

To be honest the discussion was started in a series of possts between myself and VHMP where the post by VHMP when he credited Ducati/Bridgestone ad responded to my question by including VR and JB along with Yamaha/Bridgestone. It was not about bike development from my side but VHMP misunderstoon and you seem to be under teh same interpretation and have thus taken and run with it.

For me, each and every championship is a team component where a great number of variables com into play and a great number of contributors work together to produce a champion at seasons end. In all cases, those involved are responsible to the success that they have achieved and nothing should diminish that achievement nor the level of it.

Just to reiterate, I have never said that CS is the equal of VR/JB in terms of bike development but have said that he should be included in receiving credit for the 2007 WC if peopel are to include VR in credit for the 2008. It is about consistency just as it should be for comparing incidents etc on track, one must apply consistency in argument/discussion.

Yes at times personal bias will cloud and that is fine as that is when it can become fun, as has been the case with this discussion but with Donnington upon us we now have other races to move onto and discuss.


Oh yes, a final note if I may.

You will not find a southern cross tattoo anywhere near any part of my body as I am just as quick to criticise Australians if/when I feel it is deserved.

Has been fun, but will move on now and I do thank you for keeping it civil in my case as really, it is just discussion and opinion of two buttheaded stubborn mules (well, thats the way I read it)










Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You see, here we go againn - same circle same argument.

I don't give a right royal rats about who developed the wind turnine or who deserves most respect for developing a WC winning bike in 2007 or 2008 but to assert as you seem to be that CS WC is less somehow because he played no part in developing (your words) the 2007 title winning Ducati is (IMO) absurd.

It would be the same as saying that VR's 2004 success be diminished because JB nor VR played a part in developing the 2004 Yamaha because they were not on a Yamaha the year previously.
Firstly....I love you Gaz.....no really.....I do! This is great

I never said he played no part, just that he can't be credited 'AS MUCH' for WC winning bike development as VR-I see the circle but I'm not drawing it!!!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As I have always argued, said and typed - the title was won in 2007 by the package of Stoner/Ducati/Brisgestone and associated team (Suppo etc).

To me, a rider cannot individually win a race, yet alone a title without the efforts of a great number of conrtibutors. Have always said that and will always, and that is why I argue that CS deserves to be included in the credit being given for winning the 2007 title - do you agree or disagree?

Completely agree- I never said otherwise, I've always given credit, if you look back. You are just fishing for me to say that he deserves the same Credit as VR for WC winning bike development-of which I cannot agree, for if I do I will end up joining TC in Scientology madhouse!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hard to say in many ways as there are articles that have been quited here saying that at times in season 2009 VR has made us of JL's settings and vice versa.

But, were I to say who is most responsible for the position in which Yamaha find themselves if we are to look at the most likely scenario it would be the work of VR/JB last year in setting the Yamaha up to make best use of the Brisgestone tyres. Does this diminish JL's input, to me no way as we do not know if he is using the same settings and given recent comments from himself (ie. VR prefers front bias/JL rearwards) then the settings would be different. But yes, I can accept that VR/JB have played a massive part in the Yamaha being where it is, but you will also not that I have not said differently.

you agree!!?? have we come full circle?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 2007 GP7 is a relative unknown and it is accepted wisdom that at the start of the year the bike was primarily developed around Capirossi but as the year wore on, it does appear as though the bike became more focused around CS.

You seem focused on the fact that JB/VR have a lot of championships between them which is a no-brainer, but why does that discredit anyone else?

That is where I struggle as I just cannot see why one world title should mean any less than 10.

It doesn't discredit anyone else, it just means that these guys are the 'best' of a great bunch. There's an old saying 'The wolf on the hill is not as hungry as the wolf climbing the hill'. to do it once, of course, is very difficult, to do it over and over and over and over.............again, with fresh new challengers and upheaval ling rule changes.....of course is much more difficult and requires a real talent for the sport and a determination to win-which exceeds- most. This is why multiple WC's means more than 1.

When VR is asked which was is most satisfying WC win, he usually can't pick between 04-08, I believe this is because they really had to dig deep and find their hunger in these years, which sets them apart from the field.

VR/JB are in their own club with MD and Ago as grand secretaries.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 500cc machine were for me the pinnacle and absolute weapons to ride. Anyone who could ride these things are phenomenol athlets and extremely gutsy as they are the era that I have so enjoyed and remain so until today. I will regularly look at old footage of that era and marvel as well as long for those times which today we simply do not get to see.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, I have never said he deserves the same level of credit for bike development, you do seem to think that I do and have been but I suggest you may want to re-read it.

What I say is that if VR/JB deserve a level of credit along with Yamaha and Bridgestone for their 2008 WC, whay then does CS and Suppor not deserver credit for their 2008 WC?

Now let me ask this, obviously in your eyes Stoner deserves little if any credit - is that about right - for bike development at all. But how does he get accepted if he must win multiple championships as to win championships he must first develop the bike. Further if Suppo is not in the league of Burgess than how does Suppo get into that league?

Obviously more championships is your judgement factor - is that right?

I believe I introduced the level of credit Ratio here....your original statement were, 'If VR/JB get credited with developing a WC winning bike in 08, then shouldn't CS get the same credit for 07?'

The 'Level OF' phrase was missing, I think, correct if wrong, but now seems to be working its way in.....

For Suppo to get into that league he needs, maybe 11 ODD MORE WC's!!!!

'Stoner deserves little if any in my eyes', never said that, implication, your fishing gaz....


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 25 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well in 2000 he had injuries and in 2001 suffered the injury that eventually ended his career.

But converse - if VR was as good as you claim (insurpassable) then why did he not win in 206/7?

Again, re-read what I have posted and nowhere do I claim that Criville was a great development rider, but your premise seems to be that in order to claim credit for developing a bike, one must have ridden or had input the previous year.

Everyone knows MD/JB were responsible for NSR's dominance back then, Mick has said it, JB has said it, I think even Alex said it. Everyone on a Honda was benefiting from Mick's Data back then. This is because they were the best at the time. I think I remember one of Mick classic quotes as saying 'I'm sick of sharing everything, I feel like a Tow-Truck!!'

Why indeed did VR not win in 06-07, and this could last for hours so i won't. But I will point out that in your sarcastic rhetoric here you seem to be inferring that Rossi is not as good as we think? Are you not a Rossi fan or just a 'I don't really like him but I will pretend that I'm level headed and rhetorically ask these questions to sort of infer that I don't like him or think hes the best and leave no real evidence' kind of person.....drop a line in and try to get the Rossi fan to bite. Wrong Bait mate!

Funnily enough I just read he has Pole at Donny, can't be much Talent there, no way.....c'mon Gaz wear your heart on your sleeve man.

I don't like Stoner, everyone here knows that. My reasons for this are his public sooky personality and his lack of grace/professionalism. I love the way he rides though. Isn't this great, this is why we love it. If Stoner was a Mr Nice Guy he really wouldn't get the same attention. And if he wasn't there last year Rossi wouldn't have had anyone to beat. I also hope the money, fame and Adrianna's ..... haven't softened him too much, because it would be nice to add him to the VR, JL battle at present.

Of course I think Rossi is the GOAT. And some people can surely disagree.....but I do have results and most of the world on my side and its not a crime to fit in with the masses-sometimes