Round 13: 2016 San Marino Grand Prix - Misano World Circuit Marco Simoncelli

michaelm · Sep 10, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
You seem confused again.

Rossi > Marquez (clear after he wins this year) > Lorenzo > Stoner in terms of greatness.

Rossi > Lorenzo since 2014.

In different posts I'm talking about different things, go figure.

Rossi finished a distant second and Lorenzo a distant third in 2014. Lorenzo is the defending world champion. The 2016 season is yet to be decided. Go figure.

What is abundantly clear is that even you don't know what you are talking about, while my contention is that Lorenzo beat Rossi in 5 of the last 6 completed seasons, in 3 of which he won the title including the most recent title, as against Rossi finishing a distant 2nd rather than a distant 3rd against MM who neither rider ever remotely threatened, MM winning the first 10 races on the bounce and a record 13 in total if you recall.

JPSLotus · Sep 10, 2016

Since Vudu and Twerk seem to be having comprehension problems, I decided to make a couple of notes on the screen cap.

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 10, 2016

michaelm said:
Rossi finished a distant second and Lorenzo a distant third in 2014. Lorenzo is the defending world champion. The 2016 season is yet to be decided. Go figure.

What is abundantly clear is that even you don't know what you are talking about, while my contention is that Lorenzo beat Rossi in 5 of the last 6 completed seasons, in 3 of which he won the title including the most recent title, as against Rossi finishing a distant 2nd rather than a distant 3rd against MM who neither rider ever remotely threatened, MM winning the first 10 races on the bounce and a record 13 in total if you recall.

Well yeah I'm talking currently, Rossi can't have beaten Lorenzo in 2016 yet since the season isn't over, well done figuring that out.

You bringing up events before 2014 when my statement was "Rossi > Lorenzo since 2014" isn't very smart either. Fact is, he clearly beat Lorenzo in 2014, some would say he beat him in 2015 as well and so far he is beating Lorenzo in 2016 despite losing about 20 points more on factors outside his control. What Marquez did in 2014 and 2016 doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

JPSLotus · Sep 10, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well yeah I'm talking currently, Rossi can't have beaten Lorenzo in 2016 yet since the season isn't over, well done figuring that out.

You bringing up events before 2014 when my statement was "Rossi > Lorenzo since 2014" isn't very smart either. Fact is, he clearly beat Lorenzo in 2014, some would say he beat him in 2015 as well and so far he is beating Lorenzo in 2016 despite losing about 20 points more on factors outside his control. What Marquez did in 2014 and 2016 doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

The most you can do in any given season is win the rider's world championship.

Since Lorenzo reached the top of the mountain, and Rossi did not, anyone who says Rossi still beat him in 2015, is an unmitigated moron as Rossi never reached the peak.

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 10, 2016

JPSLotus said:
The most you can do in any given season is win the rider's world championship.

Since Lorenzo reached the top of the mountain, and Rossi did not, anyone who says Rossi still beat him in 2015, is an unmitigated moron as Rossi never reached the peak.

Well ain't that a spectacularly empty, cliched post.

michaelm · Sep 10, 2016

moto vudu said:
You don't do very well debating on here without trying to twist the words of others to make something you can argue against. I already stated that I didn't care about RD not scrubbing the lap, but I'm posting because Lorenzo DID exceed the track limit and was given a pass. RD did him a favor, that record lap COULD have been rightfully scrubbed.

No, you are stating your opinion as fact, as is your wont, and if I am to resort to surmise trying to imply false equivalence as is also very much your wont.

I will concede it is possible that a new sub 1:32 second lap record might be considered good box office, just as letting a rider who took another rider out of a race keep his points from that race so the championship remained at least theoretically alive for the next and last race of a season might have. Both are conjecture, and you have presented an opinion rather than definitive evidence, involving sub millimetre margins on freeze frames rather than a rider being put down which is rather less equivocal.

(EDIT What you are doing btw is doing exactly what you accused others of doing when Rossi took pole ahead of Vinales.)

michaelm · Sep 10, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well ain't that a spectacularly empty, cliched post.

Someone has been reading your posts then.

I begin to understand you better. You object to unequivocal truths such as that a rider winning a race or championship is better than not doing so, being the aim of his employment, for philosophical reasons, in that you find such truths mundane, rather than because of unfamiliarity with reality in this particular universe.

JPSLotus · Sep 10, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well ain't that a spectacularly empty, cliched post.

Cliched? Perhaps, but the point remains the same, and accurate. Your decision to only critique the post on a superficial level, rather than addressing the substance of it shows there's not much else you have to say of value.

The guys on the top machines are not riding to come in 2nd, or 3rd, or even 4th. They ride to win the championship.

In 2015, being on a factory machine automatically gave 1:4 odds of winning a race, or 1:3 prior to Pedrosa deciding to show up later in the season. As such, winning the title is the only goal any of those 4 riders on the factory RCV's and factory M1's had. For them, anything less is a failure. If Lorenzo did not win the title, he might have offered the season's results in a positive light, but he never would have felt it was a successful season. You might be content to obtain a 10th place finish on a satellite bike, but you're also not riding to win a championship since it's not possible on the satellite bikes.

It's either win or go home at the front of the grid.

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 10, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Cliched? Perhaps, but the point remains the same, and accurate. Your decision to only critique the post on a superficial level, rather than addressing the substance of it shows there's not much else you have to say of value.

The guys on the top machines are not riding to come in 2nd, or 3rd, or even 4th. They ride to win the championship.

In 2015, being on a factory machine automatically gave 1:4 odds of winning a race, or 1:3 prior to Pedrosa deciding to show up later in the season. As such, winning the title is the only goal any of those 4 riders on the factory RCV's and factory M1's had. For them, anything less is a failure. If Lorenzo did not win the title, he might have offered the season's results in a positive light, but he never would have felt it was a successful season. You might be content to obtain a 10th place finish on a satellite bike, but you're also not riding to win a championship since it's not possible on the satellite bikes.

It's either win or go home at the front of the grid.

There was absolutely no substance in that post, that's why I made the remark.

That 1:4 thing is also full of faulty logic since Honda and Yamaha have never been completely equal in any race. And while top riders will surely be disappointed in not winning the title, that doesn't excuse their riding in general or mean that when people analyze the sport these seasons are meaningless.

JPSLotus · Sep 10, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
There was absolutely no substance in that post, that's why I made the remark.

There was plenty if you really understood anything about MotoGP or motor racing at large.

michaelm · Sep 10, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Well yeah I'm talking currently, Rossi can't have beaten Lorenzo in 2016 yet since the season isn't over, well done figuring that out.

You bringing up events before 2014 when my statement was "Rossi > Lorenzo since 2014" isn't very smart either. Fact is, he clearly beat Lorenzo in 2014, some would say he beat him in 2015 as well and so far he is beating Lorenzo in 2016 despite losing about 20 points more on factors outside his control. What Marquez did in 2014 and 2016 doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

You don't beat Lorenzo, or even deserve to beat him theoretically, because you are 18 points in front of him with 3 races to go as you constantly remind us was the case, you beat him by being in front of him after 18 races, which Rossi didn't manage. End of story.

If he beats him this year at the end of this season we can have a discussion then, but if he does it will likely still not be enough for him to take the title Lorenzo currently holds from him. If you wish to ignore the years 2010-2013, what part of the year 2014 preceding the year 2015, and involving a distant second rather than a title win for Rossi, do you not understand?

Our discussion concerned Rossi being superior at the time Lorenzo and Yamaha decided to part ways in any case.

#22 · Sep 10, 2016

I couldn't see a full results posted anywhere so:

1. Jorge Lorenzo ESP Movistar Yamaha MotoGP (YZR-M1) 1m 31.868s [Lap 7/8] 290km/h (Top Speed)
2. Valentino Rossi ITA Movistar Yamaha MotoGP (YZR-M1) 1m 32.216s +0.348s [7/8] 289km/h
3. Maverick Viñales ESP Team Suzuki Ecstar (GSX-RR) 1m 32.381s +0.513s [7/8] 291km/h
4. Marc Marquez ESP Repsol Honda Team (RC213V) 1m 32.443s +0.575s [4/8] 287km/h
5. Michele Pirro ITA Ducati Team (Desmosedici GP) 1m 32.467s +0.599s [7/8] 292km/h
6. Andrea Dovizioso ITA Ducati Team (Desmosedici GP) 1m 32.677s +0.809s [8/8] 294km/h
7. Cal Crutchlow GBR LCR Honda (RC213V) 1m 32.743s +0.875s [6/8] 287km/h
8. Dani Pedrosa ESP Repsol Honda Team (RC213V) 1m 32.859s +0.991s [9/9] 291km/h
9. Aleix Espargaro ESP Team Suzuki Ecstar (GSX-RR) 1m 32.918s +1.050s [3/6] 285km/h
10. Pol Espargaro ESP Monster Yamaha Tech 3 (YZR-M1) 1m 33.002s +1.134s [3/7] 287km/h
11. Hector Barbera ESP Avintia Racing (Desmosedici GP14.2) 1m 33.301s +1.433s [4/4] 288km/h
12. Alvaro Bautista ESP Factory Aprilia Gresini (RS-GP) 1m 33.929s +2.061s [7/8] 287km/h

Qualifying 1:
13. Stefan Bradl GER Factory Aprilia Gresini (RS-GP) 1m 33.399s 284km/h
14. Alex Lowes GBR Monster Yamaha Tech 3 (YZR-M1) 1m 33.635s 286km/h
15. Danilo Petrucci ITA Octo Pramac Yakhnich (Desmosedici GP15) 1m 33.716s 288km/h
16. Eugene Laverty IRL Aspar MotoGP Team (Desmosedici GP14.2) 1m 33.772s 288km/h
17. Jack Miller AUS Estrella Galicia 0,0 Marc VDS (RC213V) 1m 33.847s 287km/h
18. Scott Redding GBR Octo Pramac Yakhnich (Desmosedici GP15) 1m 33.989s 288km/h
19. Tito Rabat ESP Estrella Galicia 0,0 Marc VDS (RC213V)* 1m 34.302s 285km/h
20. Yonny Hernandez COL Aspar MotoGP Team (Desmosedici GP14.2) 1m 34.465s 285km/h
21. Javier Fores ESP Avintia Racing (Desmosedici GP14.2) 1m 35.161s 283km/h

Alex Lowes is only 6 tenths off Pol Espargaro which doesn't seem bad, but what the hell happened to the Pramac Ducati's?

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 10, 2016

michaelm said:
Someone has been reading your posts then.

I begin to understand you better. You object to unequivocal truths such as that a rider winning a race or championship is better than not doing so, being the aim of his employment, for philosophical reasons, in that you find such truths mundane, rather than because of unfamiliarity with reality in this particular universe.

Of course winning is better than not in a vacuum and the ultimate objective of any series is to win the title, I'm not arguing that when saying context matters when analyzing and comparing riders. After all this is a motorsport, not track and field.

That's why I consider Rossi being clearly the best rider in 2006 or Lorenzo pretty clearly the best rider in 2013, for example. Neither guy won the title, but those seasons improved both riders' legacies in a significant way.

michaelm · Sep 10, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Of course winning is better than not in a vacuum and the ultimate objective of any series is to win the title, I'm not arguing that when saying context matters when analyzing and comparing riders. After all this is a motorsport, not track and field.

That's why I consider Rossi being clearly the best rider in 2006 or Lorenzo pretty clearly the best rider in 2013, for example. Neither guy won the title, but those seasons improved both riders' legacies in a significant way.

Then we disagree.

Lorenzo being the best rider in 2013 would have involved him not crashing out and fracturing his clavicle twice and missing or riding injured in several races. The only excuse I have for him is that MM's pass at the last corner at Jerez was illegitimate, while still probably being avoidable by him.

Nicky Hayden rode a brilliant season in 2006 whether or not he could repeat same in other years, without full support from his team in general (only imo of course), and in fact the antithesis of support from his team-mate (not a matter of opinion), Rossi crashed out of the last race when still in with a very good chance of the title, and if he is to be praised as he is for his development skills must also surely share the blame if there were any deficiencies in the bike in his third year as the undisputed lead factory Yamaha rider.

p4p1 · Sep 10, 2016

Let's not forget regarding 2013 that Marquez lost at least 20 points due to a last minute rule change so to say that Marquez wasn't the best rider that year is false IMO.

Motokitty · Sep 10, 2016

Pirro

JPSLotus · Sep 10, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Of course winning is better than not in a vacuum and the ultimate objective of any series is to win the title, I'm not arguing that when saying context matters when analyzing and comparing riders. After all this is a motorsport, not track and field.

That's why I consider Rossi being clearly the best rider in 2006 or Lorenzo pretty clearly the best rider in 2013, for example. Neither guy won the title, but those seasons improved both riders' legacies in a significant way.

Keep in mind, Rossi performed the biggest choke-job of his career up to that point when he fell down at Valencia 2006 because he felt the pressure. That season did not improve his legacy by any stretch of the imagination...especially when everyone realized when the SNS tires could do for you if you were fortunate enough to get them.

JPSLotus · Sep 10, 2016

Motokitty said:
Pirro

I was quite happy to see Pirro do so well.

In fact, I'd say testing there in June probably helped him out quite a bit.

Richy56 · Sep 10, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I was quite happy to see Pirro do so well.

In fact, I'd say testing there in June probably helped him out quite a bit.

Yeah was good to pirro do well. Dovi has his hands full.

Would have been intertesting to see what the mad ianone could have done (with a tow)

Amazing lap by Lorenzo, great to see some goal line technology on this forum also, thank you as it looked awfully close on the tv.

Maverick should stick with Suzuki, it's clearly gettin better. He will be shafted for the next two years.

kudos for Aleix for being the way, always like the guy, Rossi showed his mental fragility yet again and lost it. Plus he a complete ....... hypocrite after last year

p4p1 · Sep 10, 2016

Richy56 said:
Yeah was good to pirro do well. Dovi has his hands full.

Would have been intertesting to see what the mad ianone could have done (with a tow)

Amazing lap by Lorenzo, great to see some goal line technology on this forum also, thank you as it looked awfully close on the tv.

Maverick should stick with Suzuki, it's clearly gettin better. He will be shafted for the next two years.

kudos for Aleix for being the way, always like the guy, Rossi showed his mental fragility yet again and lost it. Plus he a complete ....... hypocrite after last year

Well I'm not so sure hypocrite is the word as Rossi actually did something wrong where as Aleix never did.

Round 13: 2016 San Marino Grand Prix - Misano World Circuit Marco Simoncelli

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