You obviously didn’t read all the comments closely. I go with the MDub version of events which no one has refuted over that of Nick Harris and Simon Crafar.. Sure MM made an aggressive pass as is his wont but it was a feasible one which he actually completed, and he didn’t run wide he took a racing line of his choice to which he is entitled as the rider in front. Bagnaia made the infeasible pass attempt, which relied on MM either running quite wide which he didn’t, or somehow reacting mid corner when he was already leaned over and turning in to a rider and bike he wouldn’t have seen until the last moment.
MotoGP: 2024 Round 2 Grande Prémio Tissot de Portugal
- Thread starter mikesbytes
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I think in general Bagnaia’s tire was shot as MM himself said, and MM was going to pass him for good one way or another well before the end of the race.
You make a good point though, setting up for the next straight then blasting past with his straight line advantage was the more feasible and judicious short term strategy.
Good insights as is your wont.
True about Ducati, I can remember after Barros won a race on a Pramac D’Antin (as it was then) Ducati in 2007 employing an alternative tire strategy and Stoner finished 4th the current Ducati head honcho saying quite publicly that this (a satellite Ducati rider taking points from Stoner) should not be allowed to happen again. Iannone just about finished himself at Ducati by taking his team mate Dovi out in a race as well. They seem to be more tolerant of competition between their riders under the Gigi regime though, with Martin by all appearances given equipment good enough to win the title last year.
I see MM’s situation as being problematic as you do, even if he does still have it as he probably does Ducati and KTM already have their own much younger golden boys who are pretty much home grown in addition. His main chance of another title looks to me to be with Honda .somehow building a competitive bike again and him returning there whilst still possessed of something not too far from his peak riding ability.
MM also did benefit from several years when only 4 bikes could win of course, although he still won in some years when imo the Honda wasn’t the best bike, and also one year when quite physically hampered by a bad shoulder.
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Joined Feb 2020
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Bendigo Vic
We will get a better idea at COTA In the next race. He has previously been dominant there. If he isn't fighting for the win there he is in trouble.
Acosta is already looking very very good. He is a big worry from MM's point of view, in taking more championships. Already so able to put that KTM where he wants at speed and so able to overtake on corner entry.
Acosta is already looking very very good. He is a big worry from MM's point of view, in taking more championships. Already so able to put that KTM where he wants at speed and so able to overtake on corner entry.
For me it’s not who he has taken out. It’s the fact that his passing often has a very thin margin, ultimately counting on the other rider to sit up.
I agree, but true to an extent of several greats of both F1 and GP bike racing, the aforementioned Senna for one, and Valentino Rossi imo among them, let me through or I will crash into you being an effective tactic if a rider/driver has sufficient status to get away with it.
One reason why I was a Stoner fan, after causing a crash in his first year in the premier class in 2006 which injured Gibernau and Capirossi he took that very much to heart and made well set up clinical passes with little or no risk to fellow riders henceforth with very few exceptions. Even the accident he caused in 2006 was due to overcooking it while in front rather than riding into anyone. Lorenzo was similar, in the premier class at least, and Acosta also bids fair to be the same.
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Joined Feb 2020
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Bendigo Vic
It has been, but he has been able to stuff it into a corner harder than anyone else for much of his career. Negated to an extent by ride height, aero and a font tyre that over heats whilst following.
That front end ability is still there though and stuffing it into a corner where people dont expect does often mean a close pass.
Impressed by Acostas ability to do the same so far and he has done it to Marquez. Marquez generally doesn't complain if others are able to do it to him, he just races hard in reply.
Of the 2 passes under discussion on this occasion MM’s was far more feasible and actually on the start of the corner rather than mid corner, so much though I respect Bern 1’s opinion I would argue it was up to Bagnaia to shut his throttle down with MM already in front.
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I don't disagree but that it become quite an accepted practice for a time and anyone who disagreed was laughed at by the media and some fans. So young riders coming up started to see it as an acceptable practice and there will always be those who take it to the extreme of what is or could be considered legal.
I'm not sure what is wrong by passing on a very thin margin, everyone knows the risks when racing. Relying on others to sit up or pull out of a corner is a practice as old as racing. There is a limit of course but that limit seems to change depending on who is involved, the race, the stakes and over the years.
While I wasn't alive back then this was covered pretty extensively in the Senna documentary movie and I've concluded that 1990 was just a classic case of the old saying...
I had Nieto worshipping Rossi and in tears every now and then out of Joy or sadness depending on Rossi's furtune. I have wanted to vomit on so many occasions thanks to that whole crew.
I tend to watch events and make up my own mind sometimes with the use of slomo when available and then see how others saw it. I don’t agree that MM took a racing line of his choice unless you add it was purely the only line where he could have attempted the pass. Coming into the corner at such a sharp angle meant he had to brake more and he did run a little deeper than he would have preferred and this allowed PP to have a view up the inside which he promptly snatched at.
We disagree then. I watched it live and my view was the same as MDub’s, MM made a feasible pass which he actually completed, imo and MDub’s MM was on a line to make the next part of the corner and not significantly wide, and in fact was already leaned over and turning into the next part of the corner. Ii MM was wide then so was Bagnaia as the pictures posted on the previous pages demonstrate, and how pray tell was Bagnaia ever going to make a pass or the corner without colliding with MM ?. He was either wrong about MM going wide, or somehow expected a rider who was in front of him and couldn’t see him to stand up his bike while already leaned over and turning into the final part of a double corner.
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Joined May 2009
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Shovel's Club
Curious, did you watch how other riders took that corner on a normal lap to add context to whether or not Marc was wide? You will see that Binder was wider at that point than Marc every lap in that corner to get drive down the next straight. Add to the fact that Pecco actually had a lot of room in between him and the curb also. He could have been further inside also but he either chose to be that close to Marc or was pushing wide himself from squaring up the corner where he did. He still had to apex yet in order to get drive.
Joined Oct 2008
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In Cider
This is racing at the premier world championship level. As Nicky Hayden said.."It ain't fishin!'. Marquez does have a 'If you don't give me room we are going to crash' mentality, but so did Rossi (and was applauded for it), Senna, many others.
Agreed. Senna was the rightful 89 champ, Prost the rightful 90 champ imo.
I may be wrong but was Stoner passing Sete? I thought he was simply ahead of him and dropped his bike, giving Sete nowhere to go.
I watched it on the Neil Hodgson commentary feed and didn’t study BBs line intensely thro that corner but am not disputing it. I will say that as Pecco was coming into the turn on a more obtuse angle than MM thro the pass and given that Pecco is no slouch when on the brakes Marquez was on the limit with his entry speed during braking and he paid a price for it by going a little deeper than he wished before turning in. Pecco due to said angle and good braking turned inside Marc and attempted to make the most of it. I believe at that moment race strategy went out of the window let alone consideration of the double apex to come. His only thought was to try and get level with Marc and if they touched it wouldn’t be bad and Marc would back out of it. Yes there was room on his left but in trying to make as fast an exit to try to get level he couldn’t get to it and may have have been partially unsighted regarding Marc legitimately altering his line. That’s how I perceived it and am not apportioning blame to either of them. They both will wish they had handled it differently but got caught up in the moment nothing more than that. Good old fashioned racing for me.
Joined Oct 2008
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In Cider
Exactly, racing incident. I can blame neither for trying what they did, though Pecco was more to blame and had more to lose.
I recall seeing an incident in F1 a few years ago where Max Verstappen as the leader, crashed with a car that was trying to unlap itself on much fresher tyres.
He was raging about it and saying how stupid it was for the other car to be doing that, with which eventual winner Hamilton agreed. But Hamilton made a good point:
"You are right, he shouldn't have been racing you. But if you had just let him past, you would have won the race"
I feel the same thing here. I don;t blame Pecco for trying to cut back. But, he should have looked at the bigger picture.
Joined May 2009
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Shovel's Club
I am going to undercut back to England in a kart for this take.
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