It's RACE WEEK! Grand Prix of Qatar..

gui22a said:

That last lap must have been hard on Enea's heart

LoL to Ducati

They thrown away their perfect bike trying to reinvent all over again. wtf... why not just resume from where they ended last year?

D'alligna focus a lot on innovations so much so sometimes seems he forget turning things upside down can upset the basics of the bike. 1 year developing a ....... ride height device that upset their bike, to be thrown away in 2024 LOL...

The moment Gigi joined Ducati I told you here in this forum he would do a good job, a good bike at maximum but would never be world champion. Ok maybe I had exaggerated a bit, but it's each time clearer and clearer he doesn't know how to be efficient on drivers championship and how to capitalize over what has been already done. He put his main rider to develop the bike until the last minute of Qatar race day, wtf man, why not use the satelite riders? there are 6 now!! It's so true what I'm talking here that Suzuki rejoined motogp and in a few years got the riders world championship being super efficient with a lean team, focusing on their riders. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Gigi but I feel he has not what it takes to get the drivers title. He get to go from top maximum performance to complete .... in just a few weeks time. It's incredible how Ducati has the power to destroy itself infinity times.

Every year they commit the same mistakes over and over again. I think it's time to remove a bit of decision power from the hands of Dalligna and bring a new, fresh leader to the team more focused on the factory riders and less obsessed with the bike.

Click to expand...

If gigi would spend less time exploiting the rule book and more time on team structure and a rounded bike they would have already won a championship. They should have won it in 2020 & 2021, they sent Dovi out to pastures. I would love to see the wings & ride height BS Band from 2023 on wards. If they allow this crap, they should go back to OEM software.

[back again since when?! hi all!]

great race, what a start to the season! few things to point out

- not too surprised a GP21 did well at Qatar. it's a well-sorted bike, there is lots of data from last year, and it was the best bike of last year I'd say.

- definitely surprised Bastianini did it, and more so as Gresini rider. This is a 'new' team, as in this is their first race as a Ducati satellite team, let's not forget this. Bastianini showed so much strength in the second half last year and it was obvious that great things were to come from him, but in the first race of the new season with a new team (rode a GP19 for Avintia last year, so new bike as well) - wow. And what a fairytale given all their history.

- definitely bummed by factory Ducatis. what a collective mess of a start was that? aren't they the uber-masters of holeshot devices? and their 3 DNFs were somewhat unfortunate, but happening from .... positions still - that is quite worrysome.

- Honda looking good, not at all a bad debut for a brand new bike. still seemingly lacking a bit feeling for the front, both riders going wide into T1 more than once. would've been interesting to see where Marc had placed if he had made that L2 pass on Pol stick (ifs and buts..). there seems to be a lot of potential in the bike, so let's see.

- Yamaha seem to be very much in the ..... Their handling advantage sems to have disappeared while their power deficit remainded. Will probably be less severe on other tracks but we should not forget that they convincingly won both races last year with two different riders. Two more races like that and I don't see Fabio in blue next season.

- Suzuki seemed to be much improved over last year, at least that's what we thought after testing and the FP - still rather far in both QP and the race. where now from here?

What these 4 manufacturers have in common though is a rather similar performance across their riders, unlike

- KTM: Binder raceday magic, Oliveira nowhere - speaks a bit for BB's class but also for a rather slim operating window (BB hit it, MO missed it, obviously) - might become the new Honda of recent years. [EDIT: WHAT A START FROM BINDER WTF?!]

- Aprilia: Aleix doing good, but I still both he and Aprilia as a team just don't have what it takes to really be up there. MV is a nutcase, screw him.

Can't wait for the next races, yippie!

evo9 said:

If gigi would spend less time exploiting the rule book and more time on team structure and a rounded bike they would have already won a championship. They should have won it in 2020 & 2021, they sent Dovi out to pastures. I would love to see the wings & ride height BS Band from 2023 on wards. If they allow this crap, they should go back to OEM software.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't think firing Dovi was a mistake, imho. He's done since 2017, his truly last title shot. Age has come to him, or whatever, Ducati newcomers are doing just great. If it's to end the season as vice, Pecco has done that for Ducati, haha.

Wings too are good, they help the bike go safer according to 100% of riders nowadays. Ride height device is cool, ok, it helps and bla bla, but those obvious "external" aids will be copied by competition in a matter of weeks so, is it worth the investment? throwing millions of dollars and human resources over a thing that will be useless as soon as the competition copies it? Better to focus on bike internal refinements where no competitor eye-sight reaches.

I consider a big big mistake from Gigi to dump 2021 bike in favor of such revolutional 2022, why change the engine this much? Why put Bagnaia to make tests until Q2 (link)? Or better, why the .... touch the 2021 bike? Work on minor details and refinements, start the season, wait and see. How many title did Yamaha won with a basic bike? How many titles did Honda won with a crappy bike? So the answer to Gigi's lack of luck in the drivers championship is easier than he thinks.

I begin to suspect the smoke of his cigar's melted Gigi's brain.

evo9 said:

If gigi would spend less time exploiting the rule book and more time on team structure and a rounded bike they would have already won a championship. They should have won it in 2020 & 2021, they sent Dovi out to pastures. I would love to see the wings & ride height BS Band from 2023 on wards. If they allow this crap, they should go back to OEM software.

Click to expand...

Well, one could also say it was Gigi exploiting the rule book that Duc in a position to contend.

Dovi was never going to win the championship.

I’m sure they will get their launch device sorted out and get the new engine to suit Pecco. It’s early yet.

gui22a said:

I consider a big big mistake from Gigi to dump 2021 bike in favor of such revolutional 2022, why change the engine this much? Why put Bagnaia to make tests until Q2 (link)? Or better, why the .... touch the 2021 bike? Work on minor details and refinements, start the season, wait and see. How many title did Yamaha won with a basic bike? How many titles did Honda won with a crappy bike? So the answer to Gigi's lack of luck in the drivers championship is easier than he thinks.

I begin to suspect the smoke of his cigar's melted Gigi's brain.

Click to expand...

He might have been scared of the 'new-concept' Honda and therefore decidied that they needed to move on. Maybe didn't want to be in the position Yamaha was multiple times in recent years - starting strong on a sorted / evolution bike but stalling in development during the season and falling behind as the others sort out their new bikes.

Resorting back to the days of Prezioso organizational skills won't help sorting though.

gui22a said:

That last lap must have been hard on Enea's heart

LoL to Ducati

They thrown away their perfect bike trying to reinvent all over again. wtf... why not just resume from where they ended last year?

D'alligna focus a lot on innovations so much so sometimes seems he forget turning things upside down can upset the basics of the bike. 1 year developing a ....... ride height device that upset their bike, to be thrown away in 2024 LOL...

The moment Gigi joined Ducati I told you here in this forum he would do a good job, a good bike at maximum but would never be world champion. Ok maybe I had exaggerated a bit, but it's each time clearer and clearer he doesn't know how to be efficient on drivers championship and how to capitalize over what has been already done. He put his main rider to develop the bike until the last minute of Qatar race day, wtf man, why not use the satelite riders? there are 6 now!! It's so true what I'm talking here that Suzuki rejoined motogp and in a few years got the riders world championship being super efficient with a lean team, focusing on their riders. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Gigi but I feel he has not what it takes to get the drivers title. He get to go from top maximum performance to complete .... in just a few weeks time. It's incredible how Ducati has the power to destroy itself infinity times.

Every year they commit the same mistakes over and over again. I think it's time to remove a bit of decision power from the hands of Dalligna and bring a new, fresh leader to the team more focused on the factory riders and less obsessed with the bike.

Click to expand...

It's only natural that teams will be searching for little advantages. They sure as hell know that the other teams will be doing the same. It's always a crap-shoot as to which new toys will actually turn out to be useful. As someone has already pointed out, it's been that willingness to constantly test out new innovations that over time transformed the Ducati from a lumbering beast - into the bike it is now (or at least lets say, the bike it was last year).

Interesting what you said about the ride-height device. What is your source for this tidbit? Not challenging you, just genuinely curious.

Gigi BTW - has no authority to compel satellite riders to test devices intended for use on the main factory teams which are independent entities. Besides - the devices designed for the '22 bikes would likely not be properly compatible with the '21 bikes.

Interestingly, I had not detected it's use except at the start line. But today it's use during the race was much more evident to me.

Mick D said:

....... awesome Mignon! Winning moto3 from the front is no easy task.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the spoiler.

Can somebody please tell me the difference is Marc's front tire? When I saw this symbol in practice sessions, I thought it meant it was a used tire but that can't be it for a race. I also thought Michelin brought 3 symmetric front compounds to Qatar, S, M, H.

Keshav said:

It's only natural that teams will be searching for little advantages. They sure as hell know that the other teams will be doing the same. It's always a crap-shoot as to which new toys will actually turn out to be useful. As someone has already pointed out, it's been that willingness to constantly test out new innovations that over time transformed the Ducati from a lumbering beast - into the bike it is now (or at least lets say, the bike it was last year).

Interesting what you said about the ride-height device. What is your source for this tidbit? Not challenging you, just genuinely curious.

Gigi BTW - has no authority to compel satellite riders to test devices intended for use on the main factory teams which are independent entities. Besides - the devices designed for the '22 bikes would likely not be properly compatible with the '21 bikes.

Click to expand...

No source at all, I confess. But I follow this world from many years, specially Ducati. And you can be sure, they redesign the frame structure to help cope with the new front lowering device and the new bike dynamics derived from this, not only for the race start but to use it during the race, otherwise there was no reason to change so much the 2021 bike. From the comments of the riders, specially Pirro, the bike is a lot different, plus Pirro speaking he takes 1 year developing this device - which means the entire bike - to work around this device and his new generated dynamics.

Ok, is it a cool idea? Yes. Could it be a great advantage? Yes. But it's a too high risky to take in a world championship won through the tiniest detail. 1st race, 1st zero. And we can already see in the media Pecco isn't happy with Gigi.

Keshav said:

It's only natural that teams will be searching for little advantages. They sure as hell know that the other teams will be doing the same. It's always a crap-shoot as to which new toys will actually turn out to be useful. As someone has already pointed out, it's been that willingness to constantly test out new innovations that over time transformed the Ducati from a lumbering beast - into the bike it is now (or at least lets say, the bike it was last year).

Interesting what you said about the ride-height device. What is your source for this tidbit? Not challenging you, just genuinely curious.

Gigi BTW - has no authority to compel satellite riders to test devices intended for use on the main factory teams which are independent entities. Besides - the devices designed for the '22 bikes would likely not be properly compatible with the '21 bikes.

Interestingly, I had not detected it's use except at the start line. But today it's use during the race was much more evident to me.

Click to expand...

The ban on ride height devices is not a fait acompli. True, five manufacturers are against it. However remember, there was in early days, much opposition to the winglets and the press decreed that their ban was a done deal. Now everybody has them. If they end up being the deciding factor (or if there is that perception) at year's end who can say how that will affect a final deciscion?

PRS717 said:

Can somebody please tell me the difference is Marc's front tire? When I saw this symbol in practice sessions, I thought it meant it was a used tire but that can't be it for a race. I also thought Michelin brought 3 symmetric front compounds to Qatar, S, M, H.

Click to expand...

the dark background marks a tire that has seen previous use (like a few laps to scrub it in free practice) vs a completely new tire.

sewarion said:

the dark background marks a tire that has seen previous use (like a few laps to scrub it in free practice) vs a completely new tire.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

gui22a said:

No source at all, I confess. But I follow this world from many years, specially Ducati. And you can be sure, they redesign the frame structure to help cope with the new front lowering device and the new bike dynamics derived from this, not only for the race start but to use it during the race, otherwise there was no reason to change so much the 2021 bike. From the comments of the riders, specially Pirro, the bike is a lot different, plus Pirro speaking he takes 1 year developing this device - which means the entire bike - to work around this device and his new generated dynamics.

Ok, is it a cool idea? Yes. Could it be a great advantage? Yes. But it's a too high risky to take in a world championship won through the tiniest detail. 1st race, 1st zero. And we can already see in the media Pecco isn't happy with Gigi.

Click to expand...

But the device is already extant on the 21 bike and results were stellar today. Interestingly, after the Mandilika tests they decided that the bike to be ridden by the two factory riders would not be the much discussed 22 bike, but rather the 21 bike with some updates, or as Ducati describes it, a “hybrid”. You’re right about Pecco: both he and Miller are saying the front end doesn’t have the same feel as last year. That could also have to do with the new tires. Luckily, tho they can’t change the engine mid-season, they can devolve the front end to suit Pecco and Miller.

Keshav said:

But the device is already extant on the 21 bike and results were stellar today. Interestingly, after the Mandilika tests they decided that the bike to be ridden by the two factory riders would not be the much discussed 22 bike, but rather the 21 bike with some updates, or as Ducati describes it, a “hybrid”. You’re right about Pecco: both he and Miller are saying the front end doesn’t have the same feel as last year. That could also have to do with the new tires. Luckily, tho they can’t change the engine mid-season, they can devolve the front end to suit Pecco and Miller.

Click to expand...

Actually the only thing mixed is the engine (2021 parts mixed with 2022 parts), the chassis and all other stuff is from the 2022 machine. Yes last year there was the device but only on the rear, now there is in the front of the bike two. Insane, haha.

What I meant is that Pecco is arelady showing some discontentment about Gigi's way of develop things (Link (translate with google).

Well let's see how it evolves from here.

Keshav said:

It's only natural that teams will be searching for little advantages. They sure as hell know that the other teams will be doing the same. It's always a crap-shoot as to which new toys will actually turn out to be useful. As someone has already pointed out, it's been that willingness to constantly test out new innovations that over time transformed the Ducati from a lumbering beast - into the bike it is now (or at least lets say, the bike it was last year).

Interesting what you said about the ride-height device. What is your source for this tidbit? Not challenging you, just genuinely curious.

Gigi BTW - has no authority to compel satellite riders to test devices intended for use on the main factory teams which are independent entities. Besides - the devices designed for the '22 bikes would likely not be properly compatible with the '21 bikes.

Interestingly, I had not detected it's use except at the start line. But today it's use during the race was much more evident to me.

Click to expand...

Agree, they had a bike only Casey Stoner could be competitive on for many years after the start of the 800 formula, and Gigi was the one that designed a bike which would turn etc while also still having the most power.

You will disagree, but I don't think they quite had the riders to win the title when the bike was the best bike, but they do now imo with Bagnaia and Martin and it would appear Bastianini, the latter at least whom they can support on the actual 2021 bike.

I agree with qui22a that the 2022 bike, or engine at least, looks like a mis-step at this stage, and changing the engine to a hybrid as late as they did is not a good look and the factory riders at this point in time look like they will be disadvantaged by having the 2022 bike. This is not unprecedented for Ducati, they reverted to the 2007 engine in 2008 when the regulations still allowed same, and in the fairly recent past the then current Yamaha was inferior to the previous bike.

gui22a said:

Actually the only thing mixed is the engine (2021 parts mixed with 2022 parts), the chassis and all other stuff is from the 2022 machine. Yes last year there was the device but only on the rear, now there is in the front of the bike two. Insane, haha.

What I meant is that Pecco is arelady showing some discontentment about Gigi's way of develop things (Link (translate with google).

Well let's see how it evolves from here.

Click to expand...

Are you saying there is a ride height device on the front??? Far as I know the bike has a "launch control" device which is an aspect of the way the engine is controlled as opposed to the hole-shot device which is relatively speaking, a mechanical device. That was on the '21 machine and for this year, they moved it from the front of the fork to the back, tho it's not entirely clear why. My, possibly defective, understanding, is that the lowering device is only in the back. It essentially does what racers have done for decades, by using the back brake to lower the rear end for better steering geometry going into a turn, but without slowing the bike as much - hence better corner speed. Tho as Bastinini says he still uses a lot of back brake. Braking habits used for years are very hard to break.

michaelm said:

Agree, they had a bike only Casey Stoner could be competitive on for many years after the start of the 800 formula, and Gigi was the one that designed a bike which would turn etc while also still having the most power.

You will disagree, but I don't think they quite had the riders to win the title when the bike was the best bike, but they do now imo with Bagnaia and Martin and it would appear Bastianini, the latter at least whom they can support on the actual 2021 bike.

I agree with qui22a that the 2022 bike, or engine at least, looks like a mis-step at this stage, and changing the engine to a hybrid as late as they did is not a good look and the factory riders at this point in time look like they will be disadvantaged by having the 2022 bike. This is not unprecedented for Ducati, they reverted to the 2007 engine in 2008 when the regulations still allowed same, and in the fairly recent past the then current Yamaha was inferior to the previous bike.

Click to expand...

Sure - in regards to those points, I have no disagreement with either of you.

I do think tho that the complaint about too many changes is not entirely valid. Too many changes are only too many if they don't end up having positive effect. Set-backs happen. That's just part and parcel of the dynamic of prototype racing. With testing limited for reasons of economics, no factory can be expected to come to the the first race of the season dramatically improved AND fully realized.

And yes, much as I have admired Dovi, by the time the bike was really at peak development, he was sadly past his prime. But damn, he gave it everything and came bloody close that one year.

PRS717 said:

Thanks for the spoiler.

Click to expand...

Unless we start-up the way-back machine and start separate threads for all classes as we did when there were 10x the users here, I will continue the use the one race thread to post comments about all classes. You don't want to see it, don't read the race thread.

Keshav said:

Are you saying there is a ride height device on the front??? Far as I know the bike has a "launch control" device which is an aspect of the way the engine is controlled as opposed to the hole-shot device which is relatively speaking, a mechanical device. That was on the '21 machine and for this year, they moved it from the front of the fork to the back, tho it's not entirely clear why. My, possibly defective, understanding, is that the lowering device is only in the back. It essentially does what racers have done for decades, by using the back brake to lower the rear end for better steering geometry going into a turn, but without slowing the bike as much - hence better corner speed. Tho as Bastinini says he still uses a lot of back brake. Braking habits used for years are very hard to break.

Click to expand...

They do have a front ride height lowering device. Covers extensively by kropo on his site.

I forgot that they have daylight savings over east so I missed the race live. i watched it straight after the race had started though, I fast forwarded a lot. Sport is somewhat ruined IMO when you find out the result beforehand.

Was great to see 'The Beast' take his maiden win. It must be somewhat bittersweet for the team without Fausto there to celebrate with them after being so heavily involved for so long.

Pol was great and did more than I expected.

Binder is a great talent and KTM have been pouring recourses in to get these results so there is no surprise there IMO.

Aleix had a great day.

Marquez's top 5 could be worrying for the competition. It's a track he doesn't ride that well at, he hasn't had much seat time compared to others on a brand new bike.

It's going to be an interesting season up ahead. I don't put too much stock into what happens or who wins at Qatar, especially since control electronics. The circuit is just so different to all of the other tracks. I'm just glad the racing is back on.