It's RACE WEEK! Grand Prix of Qatar..

michaelm · Mar 6, 2022

Keshav said:
Sure - in regards to those points, I have no disagreement with either of you.

I do think tho that the complaint about too many changes is not entirely valid. Too many changes are only too many if they don't end up having positive effect. Set-backs happen. That's just part and parcel of the dynamic of prototype racing. With testing limited for reasons of economics, no factory can be expected to come to the the first race of the season dramatically improved AND fully realized.

And yes, much as I have admired Dovi, by the time the bike was really at peak development, he was sadly past his prime. But damn, he gave it everything and came bloody close that one year.

Sure, I would back Gigi to have not made a major design error. Having young chargers like Bagnaia and Martin while good in many ways may be unhelpful with the sort of issue they seem to have, they may be too inexperienced to pinpoint problems.

It is possible Ducati have less advantage on the straight because Suzuki and Honda have progressed as well. I dozed during the race, did Bastianini have a straight line advantage on the old bike ?. Iirc Ducati might have had an advantage early on when the control ECU came in, all manufacturers have probably had sufficient experience with that by now. I believe the 2022 Honda is the first to be designed around the control ECU .

I am not someone who requires close racing ahead of everything else , if a rider is truly markedly better I am happy to watch that as well, but looks like close racing is what will transpire. I am not severely disappointed by MM, he had quite good pace on a limited preparation on what is not his best track, and Pol’s pace suggests the bike has good potential, and I can still see MM being quite strong once he gets into his stride.

MichaelBolton · Mar 7, 2022

Does anybody else think Honda might be shooting themselves in the foot by making a bike that neuters Marc's strengths with the trade-off of making everybody else look better? Pol isn't WC material and the satellite guys aren't going to make much noise. Let's see how Marc adapts to it.

sewarion · Mar 7, 2022

MichaelBolton said:
Does anybody else think Honda might be shooting themselves in the foot by making a bike that neuters Marc's strengths with the trade-off of making everybody else look better? Pol isn't WC material and the satellite guys aren't going to make much noise. Let's see how Marc adapts to it.

I don't know if Marc's strength are still existing in the way they used to be before his crash. His insane corner entry while pushing the front and potentially saving it on the elbow - I don't think he still has the physical ability to do that like before and moreover, I think he is lacking the confidence (and sharpness, given he was more off than on the bike over the last two years) to ride this way. The Marc of today propably struggle on the (winning) Hondas of past I reckon.

So if that's what Honda are seeing it would make sense to build a bike that also helps Marc to ride in a new way. Plus, if they have a fast bike that even a rider like Pol can ride fast and lead a race - imagine what Mir or Quartararo can do on it.

And maybe the old concept had just reached its innate limitation, like the screamer engine back then. Good to see Honda's openness to changing their design.

michaelm · Mar 7, 2022

MichaelBolton said:
Does anybody else think Honda might be shooting themselves in the foot by making a bike that neuters Marc's strengths with the trade-off of making everybody else look better? Pol isn't WC material and the satellite guys aren't going to make much noise. Let's see how Marc adapts to it.

Again somewhat each way on this, particularly with Qatar being an atypical circuit.

If the 2021 Ducati is competitive you would think a fully fit MM would be competitive on last year’s Honda, in regard to which he said his physical condition prevented him from riding his method fully. On the other hand no fully fit MM has been available to Honda for 2 years including during most if not all of the development of the 2022 bike, with him even lining up on the grid in Qatar in doubt until fairly recently due to the problems with his vision.

However while I agree Pol et al are not winning the title, great riders including MM have also won on Hondas which were good for other riders, cf the 990 Honda and MM having dominant title wins on bikes which were not too bad for Dani Pedrosa as well.

michaelm · Mar 7, 2022

sewarion said:
I don't know if Marc's strength are still existing in the way they used to be before his crash. His insane corner entry while pushing the front and potentially saving it on the elbow - I don't think he still has the physical ability to do that like before and moreover, I think he is lacking the confidence (and sharpness, given he was more off than on the bike over the last two years) to ride this way. The Marc of today propably struggle on the (winning) Hondas of past I reckon.

So if that's what Honda are seeing it would make sense to build a bike that also helps Marc to ride in a new way. Plus, if they have a fast bike that even a rider like Pol can ride fast and lead a race - imagine what Mir or Quartararo can do on it.

And maybe the old concept had just reached its innate limitation, like the screamer engine back then. Good to see Honda's openness to changing their design.

Agree and posted something similar without seeing your post. Designing an extreme bike around MM doesn’t work without the old version of MM and his extreme riding style, who may not ever return and for whom that riding style would appear to have become unsustainable as he got older anyway. HRC were rumoured to be chasing Mir fairly recently with the availability of any version of MM uncertain, rightly imo, MM recovering from the eye problem was far from a given. I think they will be signing someone they believe can contend in the near future for the 2023 season regardless of MM.

MM also had zero crashes at Qatar afaik.I extremely doubt he is going to try his old strategy of semi-deliberately crashing in practice to find the limits after a training crash gave him the double vision from which his recovery was in question for quite some time as above.

JPSLotus · Mar 7, 2022

I got the impression during the race MM was just managing where he was and was looking to bring the bike home in one piece. He did not use his normal aggressive riding style against the competition the way he has in previous years.

I thought Bastianinni rode a great race. Probably not a good look for the factory riders that a Gresini satellite bike outperformed them. Given the silly season for seats, I could see Ducati replacing Miller with him.

Overall I didn't think the race was anything special. I've noticed it seems like the more parity we get, the less overtaking we get.

Keshav · Mar 7, 2022

JPSLotus said:
I got the impression during the race MM was just managing where he was and was looking to bring the bike home in one piece. He did not use his normal aggressive riding style against the competition the way he has in previous years.

I thought Bastianinni rode a great race. Probably not a good look for the factory riders that a Gresini satellite bike outperformed them. Given the silly season for seats, I could see Ducati replacing Miller with him.

Overall I didn't think the race was anything special. I've noticed it seems like the more parity we get, the less overtaking we get.

I can see a pre-race conversation going something like this

Marc: So look Alberto, the way I see it is this. It’s been ages since I won at Qatar and three years since I’ve even set foot there. So what I propose is, we go there, and not risk injury, but instead, ride at four-fifths capacity so I can concentrate on learning to adapt my style to the new bike, and arrive at the tracks where I kick ..., healthy and more familiar with the bike. How does that sound to you?

Puig: Ah si. Buena idea.

JPSLotus · Mar 7, 2022

Keshav said:
I can see a pre-race conversation going something like this

Marc: So look Alberto, the way I see it is this. It’s been ages since I won at Qatar and three years since I’ve even set foot there. So what I propose is, we go there, and not risk injury, but instead, ride at four-fifths capacity so I can concentrate on learning to adapt my style to the new bike, and arrive at the tracks where I kick ..., healthy and more familiar with the bike. How does that sound to you?

Puig: Ah si. Buena idea.

I would agree with this being the right call.

Too many injuries in too short of a time window. Much as I liked seeing him ride on the limit all the time, it's not really the smart move any longer. As long as Puig doesn't put out a fake pitboard I think he'll slowly improve as he becomes more comfortable with the bike.

Also the Yamahas were ghastly yesterday. No answers to be had there.

PRS717 · Mar 7, 2022

michaelm said:
Agree and posted something similar without seeing your post. Designing an extreme bike around MM doesn’t work without the old version of MM and his extreme riding style, who may not ever return and for whom that riding style would appear to have become unsustainable as he got older anyway. HRC were rumoured to be chasing Mir fairly recently with the availability of any version of MM uncertain, rightly imo, MM recovering from the eye problem was far from a given. I think they will be signing someone they believe can contend in the near future for the 2023 season regardless of MM.

MM also had zero crashes at Qatar afaik.I extremely doubt he is going to try his old strategy of semi-deliberately crashing in practice to find the limits after a training crash gave him the double vision from which his recovery was in question for quite some time as above.

He crashed at T10 in morning warm up following Pecco.

Little Walter · Mar 7, 2022

MichaelBolton said:
Does anybody else think Honda might be shooting themselves in the foot by making a bike that neuters Marc's strengths with the trade-off of making everybody else look better? Pol isn't WC material and the satellite guys aren't going to make much noise. Let's see how Marc adapts to it.

No.

#22 · Mar 7, 2022

JPSLotus said:
I got the impression during the race MM was just managing where he was and was looking to bring the bike home in one piece. He did not use his normal aggressive riding style against the competition the way he has in previous years.

Exactly how I saw it. He got useful race mileage on the new bike.

warthog1 · Mar 7, 2022

That's not what he is saying however despite there probably being an element of truth to it;

All weekend Pol was riding a bit better than me," said Marquez. "The way that he got the lap times was a little bit easier. Looks like he is able to stop a lot the bike on the entry and he is using the rear brake a lot, I still can't use this amount of rear brake, because if I do, I lose the rear....

Just today, there were four riders faster than us. I was optimistic before the race, that I was thinking maybe the race will be a bit slow, but it was a really fast race. The pace was incredible, and I didn't have the speed.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/997816/1/marc-marquez-i-still-cant-use-rear-brake-pol

p4p1 · Mar 7, 2022

MichaelBolton said:
Does anybody else think Honda might be shooting themselves in the foot by making a bike that neuters Marc's strengths with the trade-off of making everybody else look better? Pol isn't WC material and the satellite guys aren't going to make much noise. Let's see how Marc adapts to it.

I don't really think so. It was clear and has been clear for some time that Honda needed to come up with something that Marc didn't need to ride on the edge to get the best out of. Yes, part of that has been Marc's own doing. He has famously preferred something faster even if it is almost impossible to ride over something that is much easier to ride but slower. At some point the 'adults' in the room (Honda) need to step in and say that we believe this is a better choice for not only you and your own longevity but also for our brand. If Pol can get podiums on the bike, you can be sure that a fit Marquez can win a world title on it.

michaelm · Mar 7, 2022

warthog1 said:
That's not what he is saying however despite there probably being an element of truth to it;

All weekend Pol was riding a bit better than me," said Marquez. "The way that he got the lap times was a little bit easier. Looks like he is able to stop a lot the bike on the entry and he is using the rear brake a lot, I still can't use this amount of rear brake, because if I do, I lose the rear....

Just today, there were four riders faster than us. I was optimistic before the race, that I was thinking maybe the race will be a bit slow, but it was a really fast race. The pace was incredible, and I didn't have the speed.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/997816/1/marc-marquez-i-still-cant-use-rear-brake-pol

Probably a bit of both as you say. Qatar is also the place he broke his humerus over-riding when he couldn’t realistically improve from second, so I would take him riding within himself as a good sign for his title chances. He would have won in 2015, the only premier class title he didn’t win when sufficiently healthy to contend, if he had settled for the places he was in rather than over-riding in an attempt to win every race. He usually didn’t win the Qatar race even in his pomp anyway.

Bern1 · Mar 7, 2022

MichaelBolton said:
Does anybody else think Honda might be shooting themselves in the foot by making a bike that neuters Marc's strengths with the trade-off of making everybody else look better? Pol isn't WC material and the satellite guys aren't going to make much noise. Let's see how Marc adapts to it.

Can’t see how it hurts to have a better, more rideable bike.

As for Pol, I’ll let him prove that he is, or isn’t WC material.

It could be debated that Pol may have been able to win that race had he managed the tires better. It’s true that he doesn’t come across as a real thinker though.

I know the Espargaro brothers catch a lot of flack and neither has won a premier class race but I think both have a chance to do so this year.

It’s up to them!

Bern1 · Mar 7, 2022

I just read Bagnaia’s comments on testing and how he would rather not test. I find that rather odd. Perhaps he needs to step up and start developing the analytical skill to take that on. If he wants to win.

I think it’s laudable and ballsy of Gigi to want to continue to innovate and improve the bike, even as it was winning in its previous iteration.

I think Pecco should talk to Gigi rather than talk to the world about these things. As it is, he’s coming across as a complainer.

Barbedwirebikerr · Mar 7, 2022

Bern1 said:
I just read Bagnaia’s comments on testing and how he would rather not test. I find that rather odd. Perhaps he needs to step up and start developing the analytical skill to take that on. If he wants to win.

I think it’s laudable and ballsy of Gigi to want to continue to innovate and improve the bike, even as it was winning in its previous iteration.

I think Pecco should talk to Gigi rather than talk to the world about these things. As it is, he’s coming across as a complainer.

I read it as bagnaia complained that he spent the first three sessions at Qatar still testing parts and not working on his own setup and race pace for the weekend.

Not testing in general, as in at official tests.

michaelm · Mar 8, 2022

Barbedwirebikerr said:
I read it as bagnaia complained that he spent the first three sessions at Qatar still testing parts and not working on his own setup and race pace for the weekend.

Not testing in general, as in at official tests.

Perhaps so, and I hope so, otherwise imo too much attitude from a rider who was fantastic late season last year, but likely significantly because of the bike Gigi provided him with. A little early in his career to complain about Gigi not giving him a good enough bike methinks, but perhaps that was not his point as you say.

gui22a · Mar 8, 2022

Marc Marquez is championship material whatever the bike. He will find his way on the new bike, absolutely no doubt about that. His racing IQ and mainly his bike dynamics understanding is much higher than anyone else on the grid and he will be the main title contender together with Quartararo, Mir and Pecco. Mark my words.

Keshav · Mar 8, 2022

From MotoMatters: “Enea Bastianini slashed just under 10.8 seconds off Quartararo's winning race time at Qatar (2021) to complete 22 laps in 42'13.198. That really is a huge amount quicker.”

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