Gran Premio Michelin de Aragón

Segfault · Oct 17, 2020

Well, the point about tennis was if you are not better decisively then you shouldn't complain when it slips away. In other words, don't put yourself into situation where such a call can make difference.

michaelm · Oct 17, 2020

Segfault said:
Well, the point about tennis was if you are not better decisively then you shouldn't complain when it slips away. In other words, don't put yourself into situation where such a call can make difference.

Sure it is the luck of the draw rather than something to complain about, but my point was that tiebreakers can be a rather capricious way of deciding the outcome of a tennis set or match, and a wrong line call can decide the outcome of a match if you are one of the top 3 players all time playing one of the other top 3 players of all time with both of you at the top of your game.

Sure Dovi is not a top 3 MotoGP rider all time, and nor is it likely imo that he is racing anyone this particular week end who is/will be a top 3 rider all time.

Bern1 · Oct 17, 2020

The comparison with tennis is apt, particularly at this level. The game is almost all mental when the mechanics are a given, or should be. Racing is the game as well in this case, although games are usually played with one ball....

I don’t understand Fabio revealing so much at this point in the proceedings. It makes me think he still has a lot to learn. It’s a little endearing certainly, but can also be seen as a sign of weakness. Why tell your opponents how you are playing the game?

Unless you’re sandbagging of course.......up it a level!

birdman · Oct 18, 2020

Segfault said:
@michaelm

.....,two bikes riding one after another will enjoy combined air drag which is less than two bikes separately.....,.

This is my understanding, common in nascar when one car gets out in front either two cars or the pack can catch up without actually being faster drivers. Thing is, the draft from a few lengths further back doesn’t help the lead rider, only when they are nose to tail. In fact I have heard rider reports a rider in front can feel the effects of another bike a couple lengths back on the engine in 5th and 6th gears, holding it back. I don’t have an understanding of the physics why.

birdman · Oct 18, 2020

Bern1 said:
The comparison with tennis is apt, particularly at this level. The game is almost all mental when the mechanics are a given, or should be. Racing is the game as well in this case, although games are usually played with one ball....

I don’t understand Fabio revealing so much at this point in the proceedings. It makes me think he still has a lot to learn. It’s a little endearing certainly, but can also be seen as a sign of weakness. Why tell your opponents how you are playing the game?

Unless you’re sandbagging of course.......up it a level!

Tennis these days is as much about the physical. The men look like grey hounds. A millisecond of time gained in physical speed and agility allows that player a millisecond extra time mentally over their opponent Which just slowly adds up and wears the other down. Bikes though, nothing like same ball court racket tennis far more variables. Most say Marquez has the worst bike so is behind in mechanics from the beginning. My theory has always been Marquez mostly just leaves the bike as is and concentrates on getting maximum understanding and thus benefit from the tires. Yes this does require simulated and actual crashing, but you can’t save a crash in a race if you can’t anticipate when it could occur or know how to actually save it.

michaelm · Oct 18, 2020

birdman said:
Tennis these days is as much about the physical. The men look like grey hounds. A millisecond of time gained in physical speed and agility allows that player a millisecond extra time mentally over their opponent Which just slowly adds up and wears the other down. Bikes though, nothing like same ball court racket tennis far more variables. Most say Marquez has the worst bike so is behind in mechanics from the beginning. My theory has always been Marquez mostly just leaves the bike as is and concentrates on getting maximum understanding and thus benefit from the tires. Yes this does require simulated and actual crashing, but you can’t save a crash in a race if you can’t anticipate when it could occur or know how to actually save it.

Sure, I agree, it is more like squash these days, superior physical endurance wears the other player down, certainly for the likes of Djokovic and Nadal, and perhaps also Murray in his pomp. Federer has had to get very fit to compete in his old age, but is perhaps more of a throwback to older days where skills were more paramount, particularly when rackets were made of wood long ago though those days were.

michaelm · Oct 18, 2020

birdman said:
This is my understanding, common in nascar when one car gets out in front either two cars or the pack can catch up without actually being faster drivers. Thing is, the draft from a few lengths further back doesn’t help the lead rider, only when they are nose to tail. In fact I have heard rider reports a rider in front can feel the effects of another bike a couple lengths back on the engine in 5th and 6th gears, holding it back. I don’t have an understanding of the physics why.

There is a piece on it on crashnet. Dovi’s complaint seemed to be that for all 3 of his fastest laps Petrux deliberately waited for a tow from Dovi, which resulted in a lap beyond his actual true pace and put him in Q2 ahead of Dovi rather than that Petrucci slowed him down. Dovi said he wasn’t looking for any help from anyone but thought it was a strange way for a Ducati rider not in contention to behave towards one who was, and harked back to lack of help from a previous team-mate when that team-mate was a ‘Spanish rider’.

Could have been obviated by him being faster than Jack Miller or not in Q1 in the first place I guess, but 3 tows is perhaps excessive and I have never been much of a Petrucci fan in any case.

p4p1 · Oct 18, 2020

2 excellent weekends for Alex Marquez in a row. Strongly starting to think that HRC made the wrong call replacing him with Pol.

p4p1 · Oct 18, 2020

Mir looking great for the title now. But it’s closed up so much that it’s still anyone’s game.

Woodstock · Oct 18, 2020

Amazing race. I said I predicted Nakagami for a podium and he was 5th so I wasn’t too far off. Alex Marquez is really impressive.

warthog1 · Oct 18, 2020

Yeah good ride by AM.
Rins did well to respond and resist. Good win.
Shat on the "supercars" at Bathurst from a great height, as expected. [emoji16]

Keshav · Oct 18, 2020

Segfault said:
@michaelm

How is it possible to miss the point so completely? What are you drinking.

@Keshav

I know aerodynamics a bit and I started thinking about it. I think your thesis is fundamentally flawed. It does not take into account two bikes riding one after another will enjoy combined air drag which is less than two bikes separately. As a result the bike behind is actually making it easier for bike ahead and it may even go a tiny bit faster. Most of benefit of this shared drag goes to the bike behind indeed.
Thus, Petrucci getting close to Dovi actually helped him to go faster.

I don't often mention it, but I have raced and run an endurance team for several years. What I said is borne out by actual experience, rather than stuff gleaned via Google. Every racer I've known - agrees that a rider in your tow slows you down, if for no other reason than the rider behind deforms the air-flow behind you. Your logic is entirely flawed and based on ...???

This being the age of the internet, when everybody is entitled to their own set of facts, people believing in Q-anon and insisting the earth is flat, I'm going to assume you will hold fast to your beliefs. So let's leave it - and just agree to disagree.

Segfault · Oct 18, 2020

In Marc's absence the other Honda riders are getting steadily faster. Why is that. They were nowhere when Marc was on the grid.
If Mir is setting himself the goal to lift the title without winning a single race then he is on right track indeed.

Suzuki is a great bike, too. Some of those passes they made were like miracles.
Ducati seems plain screwed. Nobody to blame, too, they have done it all by themselves.

Keshav · Oct 18, 2020

In the event, it was a great feckin' race. Little Alex proving everybody (self included) wrong, is a treat. His change in pace is so dramatic - that one has to wonder if Honda really found something special, or if they're somehow cheating. I doubt the latter, but it has occurred to me. That Honda looked much more stable than it has in years.

Loved seeing two Suzukis on the podium.

michaelm · Oct 18, 2020

Woodstock said:
Amazing race. I said I predicted Nakagami for a podium and he was 5th so I wasn’t too far off. Alex Marquez is really impressive.

Yes, can only credit AM for these last 2 races and his development over the season. He has also finished every race the commentators were saying, so perhaps he has had the right plan all along and worked his way into things. A little less impetuous than his brother which might be no bad thing.

The Honda is looking like a much better bike than earlier in the year. I don’t know if that can be put down to any of the current riders, but they can’t have harmed things either. I guess their MotoGP effort might be getting more focus/resources now they are pulling out of F1 (again).

Segfault · Oct 18, 2020

Keshav said:
Your logic is entirely flawed and based on ...???

Your opinion is based on "butt feeling", mine is not opinion, it is based on science.

You are right there is low pressure area behind an object which moves thru air and it "pulls back". What you ignore is the fact there is also high pressure area in front of that object. When the bike from behind B approaches the bike in front A the high pressure area from B starts neutralizing the pullback power bike A is experiencing. This high pressure area in front is much smaller than the low pressure area in back, but it is there.
There is absolutely no scientific explanation how the bike behind could slow down the bike ahead, unless the rider in the back is Magneto ...

michaelm · Oct 18, 2020

Segfault said:
Your opinion is based on "butt feeling", mine is not opinion, it is based on science.

You are right there is low pressure area behind an object which moves thru air and it "pulls back". What you ignore is the fact there is also high pressure area in front of that object. When the bike from behind B approaches the bike in front A the high pressure area from B starts neutralizing the pullback power bike A is experiencing. This high pressure area in front is much smaller than the low pressure area in back, but it is there.
There is absolutely no scientific explanation how the bike behind could slow down the bike ahead, unless the rider in the back is Magneto ...

An interesting debate, including the science vs racing experience aspect.

I saw actual quotes from Dovi after the early part of the thread, and he didn’t complain about Petrux slowing him down fwiw, just that he deliberately manoeuvred to get a tow 3 separate times, and in Dovi’s view which seems correct to me gained an advantage from Dovi’s superior intrinsic pace which put him on Q2 ahead of Dovi.

evo9 · Oct 18, 2020

p4p1 said:
2 excellent weekends for Alex Marquez in a row. Strongly starting to think that HRC made the wrong call replacing him with Pol.

Excellent ride from the younger Marquez. He does ride with the wheels more inline verses older brother out of shape style. HRC may have a dilemma on their hands if the next rounds produces similar or better results. Marc's tweet @ the end of the race was sweet.

.

evo9 · Oct 18, 2020

Yamahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keshav · Oct 18, 2020

Segfault said:
Your opinion is based on "butt feeling", mine is not opinion, it is based on science.

You are right there is low pressure area behind an object which moves thru air and it "pulls back". What you ignore is the fact there is also high pressure area in front of that object. When the bike from behind B approaches the bike in front A the high pressure area from B starts neutralizing the pullback power bike A is experiencing. This high pressure area in front is much smaller than the low pressure area in back, but it is there.
There is absolutely no scientific explanation how the bike behind could slow down the bike ahead, unless the rider in the back is Magneto ...

Not based on "butt feeling". It's accepted science based wisdom passed on by professionals, never in more than 35 years have I heard any rider dispute this. But of course "a guy on the internet" wants to argue otherwise. Believe what you will. It's not my job to change your mind. I find in situations like this, I could have Stephen Hawkins come and explain why a person is wrong, but it's a matter of pride and most guys on internet forum take stuff too personally and are not open to any differing opinion.

Leave us not drag this out. I don't want to get into a long debate. Nobody is going to change their mind. Positions are stated. People get bored with this kind of thing. Let it be. OK?

Gran Premio Michelin de Aragón

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

Segfault

michaelm

Bern1

birdman

birdman

michaelm

michaelm

p4p1

p4p1

Woodstock

warthog1

Keshav

Segfault

Keshav

michaelm

Segfault

michaelm

evo9

evo9

Keshav

Similar threads

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions