Gran Premio Michelin® de la República Argentina 2022

JPSLotus said:

I think Michelin was told to make the racing close and unpredictable hence the ....... up of a control tire.

This is shades of the 2012 F1 season when there were 7 different winners in the first 7 races. But once the top teams got a handle on how the tires operated that year, a pecking order was established.

I hate control tires in racing. It's dressed up under the guise of being about "fairness" but you can't make a tire that suits every machine. Instead everyone is designing to the tire and right now we're seeing some teams unable to get on it. That Michelin changed the tire design to suit inline 4 engines should have led to a riot by the fanbase because this is basically tantamount to race fixing by giving a tire to a particularly designed motorcycle in order to try and give it an advantage over those that have different engine configurations.

I bet at the end of the day it all comes down to Carmelo and what he wants out of the product.

Click to expand...

Why would they make a bad tire on purpose? It would only subject them to liability and commercial scrutiny.

It would make more sense to design a bunch of different constructions and compounds and let the teams/riders pick the ones they like best. Then let them choose when they receive those tires, in the allocation. The bad teams would maybe get a few extra weekends.

In that kind of a scenario, it’s not scandalous if they change the tires somewhat to help the inline 4 teams because their job is to build tires from which all teams can choose preferred rubber.

Maybe every now and again, Michelin must alter the compounds for safety reasons, and the participants throw their toys out of the pram.

mylexicon said:

Why would they make a bad tire on purpose? It would only subject them to liability and commercial scrutiny.

It would make more sense to design a bunch of different constructions and compounds and let the teams/riders pick the ones they like best. Then let them choose when they receive those tires, in the allocation. The bad teams would maybe get a few extra weekends.

In that kind of a scenario, it’s not scandalous if they change the tires somewhat to help the inline 4 teams because their job is to build tires from which all teams can choose preferred rubber.

Maybe every now and again, Michelin must alter the compounds for safety reasons, and the participants throw their toys out of the pram.

Click to expand...

Well bad tire might not be the right term. It is after all entertainment, and the trend across most race series has been to try and bunch up the field by any means necessary. Tires are one of the easiest ways to bunch of a field. We don't have huge gaps the way we did in the 800cc formula because the technical regulations and tires have been focused on parity...or something approximating it anyway.

It's all ........ at the end of the day though. I don't need grids artificially bunched up because everyone is riding to deltas that aren't necessarily on the limit.

Michelin favors rear tire grip and Bridgestone favored front tire grip. I think Bridgestone made a better tire than Michelin. Remember the first few years of Michelin returning and all of the front end washouts? I said that was a safety issue at the time, and Michelin should have been called out for what was in my opinion a substandard tire.

F1 became a circus with Ecclestone and I haven’t watched since Senna died. (Not that I was a huge fan of AS, though I respected him immensely.)

Every once in a while I try to watch a modern F1 race and promptly give up. The cars are huge and ugly and I don’t know what DRS is, nor do I seem to be inclined to try and find out.

With MotoGP I fear we have the same dynamic of one person effectively being in charge of the circus with virtually no oversight. Which produces what, a show? The whole idea of prototype racing is to go faster than anybody else. The direction of MGP with the Spanish dude in charge seems to be pointing the way of F1 under Ecclestone. Every year I threaten to cancel the subscription but at the beginning of the season I relent. These are always some young dudes worthy of respect and I watch out of respect for them. This year we seem to have quite a few. I don’t see that we need any show enhancement.

I actually don’t know how that happens, in either F1 or MotoGP, and if there is a point to this post, it’s to invite speculation on the dynamics of power in these organizations.

We’ve got some time before the next race.

JPSLotus said:

Well bad tire might not be the right term. It is after all entertainment, and the trend across most race series has been to try and bunch up the field by any means necessary. Tires are one of the easiest ways to bunch of a field. We don't have huge gaps the way we did in the 800cc formula because the technical regulations and tires have been focused on parity...or something approximating it anyway.

It's all ........ at the end of the day though. I don't need grids artificially bunched up because everyone is riding to deltas that aren't necessarily on the limit.

Michelin favors rear tire grip and Bridgestone favored front tire grip. I think Bridgestone made a better tire than Michelin. Remember the first few years of Michelin returning and all of the front end washouts? I said that was a safety issue at the time, and Michelin should have been called out for what was in my opinion a substandard tire.

Click to expand...

You make a fair point about Michelin and riders losing the front, but the situation is probably less damning than you've characterized it.

Bridgestone's advantage was the front tire, but grip balance really made the Bridgestone tires incredible, and that balance was reliable all race. Michelin doesn't have the same balance. The rear tire is too good for the front tire. Michelin could easily fix this problem, by making the rear tire less grippy, but that creates two problems: 1) The lap times increase, which undermines the spectacle in the minds of many fans 2) the public perceives Michelin as objectively inferior to Bridgestone.

Also remember that Dorna has been messing with corner entry speeds at least since 2007, when people claimed Bridgestone's new front tire was too dangerous. Maybe the grip imbalance is actually the fault of Dorna, and Michelin is merely playing around with rear tire design to see if they can go faster, despite the limitations of the front?

I don't want to be too kind to Michelin, but MotoGP has too many safety/cost regulations to blame Michelin for the sport's woes, unless there is specific evidence.

Bridgestone had performance problems, too. In 2008, it appeared they forgot how to make Ducati's preferred tires, and they basically handed the championship to Yamaha. As informed fans, I think most of us are aware that Bridgestone made that squishy front POS in 2008 to workaround some regulation that was rammed through in the emergency tire meetings of 2007. You may also remember that Dorna's TV producers pointed a camera directly at the tire so they whole world could watch it work.

In my opinion, most of the time, there are too many political and regulatory layers in MotoGP to follow Occam's Razor.

Bern1 said:

F1 became a circus with Ecclestone and I haven’t watched since Senna died. (Not that I was a huge fan of AS, though I respected him immensely.)

Every once in a while I try to watch a modern F1 race and promptly give up. The cars are huge and ugly and I don’t know what DRS is, nor do I seem to be inclined to try and find out.

With MotoGP I fear we have the same dynamic of one person effectively being in charge of the circus with virtually no oversight. Which produces what, a show? The whole idea of prototype racing is to go faster than anybody else. The direction of MGP with the Spanish dude in charge seems to be pointing the way of F1 under Ecclestone. Every year I threaten to cancel the subscription but at the beginning of the season I relent. These are always some young dudes worthy of respect and I watch out of respect for them. This year we seem to have quite a few. I don’t see that we need any show enhancement.

I actually don’t know how that happens, in either F1 or MotoGP, and if there is a point to this post, it’s to invite speculation on the dynamics of power in these organizations.

We’ve got some time before the next race.

Click to expand...

Understanding the commercial agreements doesn't require a great deal of speculation, but it does require a great deal of research, and reading between the lines, and understanding history.

Prior to the current mess, MotoGP had a relatively simple arrangement. The FIM (sanctioning body), Dorna (commercial rights), MSMA (manufacturers) and IRTA (teams association) all had equal vote. Dorna cast the tiebreaking vote, but the MSMA more or less controlled the technical regulations completely. It was quite stable because the FIM and Dorna voted as a bloc, while the MSMA and IRTA voted as a bloc. The global financial crisis caused IRTA to ally with Dorna. That is the segue through which virtually everything has happened since the 800cc era.

Today, the commercial arrangement is much different. Dorna signs and agreement with IRTA and with the independent teams within IRTA. Then Dorna signs individual agreements with the manufacturers (divide and conquer technique borrowed from Bernie Ecclestone). The manufacturers no longer have veto power, and they lack direct control of the technical regulations. That's why Dorna can unilaterally ban front shape shifters.

Keep in mind, the MSMA is still alive and well, and they can race whatever they want, but only if they are a unified front. If only 66% support some form of technical agreement, they are not a unified front against Dorna. If they all agree to do something, e.g. return to 800cc engines, what is Dorna going to do? They don't really have any leverage except maybe bring back the CRT formula.

Last year, everyone signed new agreements through 2026, and I suspect things will stay roughly the same, but there is no long term stability. International motorsport is always on the brink of revolution.

mylexicon said:

You make a fair point about Michelin and riders losing the front, but the situation is probably less damning than you've characterized it.

Bridgestone's advantage was the front tire, but grip balance really made the Bridgestone tires incredible, and that balance was reliable all race. Michelin doesn't have the same balance. The rear tire is too good for the front tire. Michelin could easily fix this problem, by making the rear tire less grippy, but that creates two problems: 1) The lap times increase, which undermines the spectacle in the minds of many fans 2) the public perceives Michelin as objectively inferior to Bridgestone.

Also remember that Dorna has been messing with corner entry speeds at least since 2007, when people claimed Bridgestone's new front tire was too dangerous. Maybe the grip imbalance is actually the fault of Dorna, and Michelin is merely playing around with rear tire design to see if they can go faster, despite the limitations of the front?

I don't want to be too kind to Michelin, but MotoGP has too many safety/cost regulations to blame Michelin for the sport's woes, unless there is specific evidence.

Bridgestone had performance problems, too. In 2008, it appeared they forgot how to make Ducati's preferred tires, and they basically handed the championship to Yamaha. As informed fans, I think most of us are aware that Bridgestone made that squishy front POS in 2008 to workaround some regulation that was rammed through in the emergency tire meetings of 2007. You may also remember that Dorna's TV producers pointed a camera directly at the tire so they whole world could watch it work.

In my opinion, most of the time, there are too many political and regulatory layers in MotoGP to follow Occam's Razor.

Click to expand...

You at the time iirc considered 2008 to be a trial run for the control tire, and again iirc the high tech asymmetric Bridgestone front disappeared.

I do also recall Carmelo considering the F1 tire thing to which JPS referred to be a good idea.

Mylexicon, thanks for the reader’s digest version of how you see current events. It makes sense to me.

These seems to always be these power struggles in motorsport. Perhaps all high levels of sport.

It ruined Indycar racing and I don’t think it has fully recovered. I say that from my personal point of view. I never considered Indy cars seriously after that.

michaelm said:

You at the time iirc considered 2008 to be a trial run for the control tire, and again iirc the high tech asymmetric Bridgestone front disappeared.

I do also recall Carmelo considering the F1 tire thing to which JPS referred to be a good idea.

Click to expand...

I’m convinced 2008 was an ill-fated attempt to save the tire war. The new agreement between Michelin, Bridgestone and Dorna ultimately cost Stoner and Ducati the equipment required to make the GP8 work correctly.

On the surface, it appeared that Bridgestone had voluntarily messed up their winning formula. Michelin is having similar optics problems currently. I doubt either tire manufacturer is to blame for the tire woes in GP.

warthog1 said:

200 races in the premier class to get his first win.
Human drama maybe, but well justified after such a journey. I enjoyed seeing the passion. I saw it as genuine.

Yeah a very good ride, as he said, significant pressure to get the result.

Click to expand...

I was just looking at his stats. It's his first win since competing in 125cc, 250cc, Moto2 and now MotoGP. Incredible! He has to be the only one with such a record and yet so many race starts in MotoGP.

I was really happy for him and he rode well, keeping it together to the end.... especially considering the pressure.

mylexicon said:

I’m convinced 2008 was an ill-fated attempt to save the tire war. The new agreement between Michelin, Bridgestone and Dorna ultimately cost Stoner and Ducati the equipment required to make the GP8 work correctly.

On the surface, it appeared that Bridgestone had voluntarily messed up their winning formula. Michelin is having similar optics problems currently. I doubt either tire manufacturer is to blame for the tire woes in GP.

Click to expand...

Stoner got ...... completely because Dorna pandered to Rossi. I very much doubt he would have won the 08 title without those and possible 2009.

misfit said:

I was just looking at his stats. It's his first win since competing in 125cc, 250cc, Moto2 and now MotoGP. Incredible! He has to be the only one with such a record and yet so many race starts in MotoGP.

I was really happy for him and he rode well, keeping it together to the end.... especially considering the pressure.

Click to expand...

I made this same point elsewhere responding to people saying how much Aleix sacrificed to stay with Aprilia. Where else was he going to go except retirement? I'm glad he's finally getting some rewards for all his work and I hope to see him on more podiums but I don't remember any other teams clamoring for his services. Or were they?

Joe Roberts' gamble isn't paying off. He's on a good team and bike but his results are lacking. Doubtful he'll ever get another shot at GP.

I mean aprilia have been giving the kid 7 figures since when Quartararo wore short pants. Him looking not that hot against vinales @suzuki wasn't career suicide. I'd wager that there are, at best, 5-10 other riders getting their weasels greasier than him. A salud Aleix, you deserve it *clap clap*

Well Aleix wasn’t getting results either as pointed out. Yet he got rides. Oh wait, he’s a Spaniard. Could that have anything to do with it?

Not to take anything away from him. I like him a lot. But it does make you wonder.

But yes, normally you have to win to get into the big leagues. And once you’re there as well, in order to get the best rides.

Zarco?

Roberts is an outsider as an American. Going with an American team makes it a complete outsider’s effort. The only way to overcome that is to win. They better figure it out.

I don’t pretend to know how the world works.

Aleix was always best of the rest,consistent, is a great guy and he doesn't have a neck tattoo or a crutchlowy attitude towards his self worth. God forbid I ever have to endure that .... again.
Aprilia stepping up their test rider game has a lot to do with their recent success imo.

I'll throw this one in too : imagine competing for sponsorship as a spaniard. That aprilia choose to pay a mil per season speaks volumes to me. Cant see more than 5 guys in motorcycle racing making that money.
Unsung hero that just got his dues. A dovizioso with worse skin, but better hat choice

Never forget

I do want to stress how much I hate crutchlow. Been a while

Bern1 said:

Well Aleix wasn’t getting results either as pointed out. Yet he got rides. Oh wait, he’s a Spaniard. Could that have anything to do with it?

Not to take anything away from him. I like him a lot. But it does make you wonder.

But yes, normally you have to win to get into the big leagues. And once you’re there as well, in order to get the best rides.

Zarco?

Roberts is an outsider as an American. Going with an American team makes it a complete outsider’s effort. The only way to overcome that is to win. They better figure it out.

I don’t pretend to know how the world works.

Click to expand...

I’m sure being a Spaniard doesn’t hurt, but he was uniquely situated to work with Aprilia. Who has ridden more equipment than Aleix?

The strange thing about his time at Aprilia, if the press can be trusted, is that he harbors resentment towards all of the young talented riders who rejected working on the Aprilia project. Uhhh…Aleix wouldn’t be employed without people turning down the ride.

Well somehow Aleix has successfully navigated the treacherous waters for quite some time now. That he has done so without a single victory in all the classes until now is quite remarkable.

That said, this one was no fluke. From the outset he dominated the weekend. He showed wily racecraft when it counted, sitting behind Martin for a good number of laps, then flawlessly executing that final pass. That he was able to pull out a slight lead with the remaining time shows that he had it well in hand. There are quite a few people on the grid who have not shown that poise in a similar situation.

Hats off to him. I hope he notches some more. Good to see Aprilia doing well against the big guns.

Everyone is entitled to make their own interpretation of events, but I don’t see anything particularly strange.

In 2009 he got a look with Ducati. He impressed some people and got a full time ride. After a mediocre 2010, he was busted down to Moto2. In 2012 he came back to GP to ride a CRT machine. He won the CRT/OPEN subclass 3 years on the trot, which earned him a mediocre factory ride at Suzuki. After failing there he got arguably the worst ride in the paddock with Aprilia.

Maybe it’s strange that Aprilia would keep him for 6 seasons. Dunno, but winning CRT three years consecutively, including 7th overall in 2014 has kept him around. His passport surely helped him get through the junior classes without much to show, but I don’t think it’s helped him in the premier class.

mylexicon said:

Everyone is entitled to make their own interpretation of events, but I don’t see anything particularly strange.

In 2009 he got a look with Ducati. He impressed some people and got a full time ride. After a mediocre 2010, he was busted down to Moto2. In 2012 he came back to GP to ride a CRT machine. He won the CRT/OPEN subclass 3 years on the trot, which earned him a mediocre factory ride at Suzuki. After failing there he got arguably the worst ride in the paddock with Aprilia.

Maybe it’s strange that Aprilia would keep him for 6 seasons. Dunno, but winning CRT three years consecutively, including 7th overall in 2014 has kept him around. His passport surely helped him get through the junior classes without much to show, but I don’t think it’s helped him in the premier class.

Click to expand...

I was kind of kidding with the Spanish jibe, maybe a mistake seeing as that has been used a lot.

I’ll bet the answer might something as simple as “plays well with others”, as in being a good team player, good communicator, willing to listen and give good feedback while trying different things.

For Props

Gaz said:

For Props

Click to expand...

He has that kind of look about him