Gran Premio Michelin de Aragón

birdman · Oct 18, 2020

Segfault said:
Your opinion is based on "butt feeling", mine is not opinion, it is based on science.

You are right there is low pressure area behind an object which moves thru air and it "pulls back". What you ignore is the fact there is also high pressure area in front of that object. When the bike from behind B approaches the bike in front A the high pressure area from B starts neutralizing the pullback power bike A is experiencing. This high pressure area in front is much smaller than the low pressure area in back, but it is there.
There is absolutely no scientific explanation how the bike behind could slow down the bike ahead, unless the rider in the back is Magneto ...

Again NASCAR makes these effects more obvious. When 2 or more cars draft up to a lone lead car, you will notice how the chasing pack deliberately remain constant to one another keeping the gap the same at all times. This allows the benefit to the lead car to actually run a higher top speed. If the second car disrupts the constant by letting the gap increase/decrease or pulling out of the draft the benefit is lost.

Cars and bikes though, not really the same and I've not witnessed it much other than perhaps 125/moto3.

What I have seen quite often is a line of bikes running onto a straight, not at all nose to tail sometimes quite a distance apart, and we all marvel including the commentators how bike/rider number 4 somehow ends up in the lead, while the poor old leader ends up in 4th.

I would postulate we have bikes running down a straight, they are all geared correctly to be hitting close to the rev limiter in 6th gear and hence they don't really have the capacity to endlessly go faster, the bike in 4th cant be running 20mph quicker without blowing the engine. How does 4th end up 1st? It could simply be down to increasingly improved acceleration for each bike in line in the tow. Yet when we see this happen it certainly appears the lead bike in a group of drafting bikes tends to suffer rather benefiting in any way, no positive air pressure pushing going on that I can see, that would surely help the leader as the bike behind approaches.

michaelm · Oct 18, 2020

Keshav said:
Not based on "butt feeling". It's accepted science based wisdom passed on by professionals, never in more than 35 years have I heard any rider dispute this. But of course "a guy on the internet" wants to argue otherwise. Believe what you will. It's not my job to change your mind. I find in situations like this, I could have Stephen Hawkins come and explain why a person is wrong, but it's a matter of pride and most guys on internet forum take stuff too personally and are not open to any differing opinion.

Leave us not drag this out. I don't want to get into a long debate. Nobody is going to change their mind. Positions are stated. People get bored with this kind of thing. Let it be. OK?

I take you at your word because you have raced as I said before the further discussion, and the physics of all this is complicated, and seems to differ between sports, cars vs motorbikes vs bicycles, aero changes things as it did in F1 where slipstreaming became a thing of the past etc.

The only thing is while the fact that you have raced is fairly clinching in any discussion such as this in all my years of following MotoGP I have never heard anyone, commentator or rider, complain about towing ruining a qualifying lap or slowing down the tower, as in this case where Dovi’s complaint seems to have been exclusively that the tow allowed Petrucci to set a time faster than he could have achieved with his own intrinsic pace, and he straight out said he wasn’t looking for any help such as a tow from Petrucci.

Keshav · Oct 18, 2020

birdman said:
Again NASCAR makes these effects more obvious. When 2 or more cars draft up to a lone lead car, you will notice how the chasing pack deliberately remain constant to one another keeping the gap the same at all times. This allows the benefit to the lead car to actually run a higher top speed. If the second car disrupts the constant by letting the gap increase/decrease or pulling out of the draft the benefit is lost.

Cars and bikes though, not really the same and I've not witnessed it much other than perhaps 125/moto3.

What I have seen quite often is a line of bikes running onto a straight, not at all nose to tail sometimes quite a distance apart, and we all marvel including the commentators how bike/rider number 4 somehow ends up in the lead, while the poor old leader ends up in 4th.

I would postulate we have bikes running down a straight, they are all geared correctly to be hitting close to the rev limiter in 6th gear and hence they don't really have the capacity to endlessly go faster, the bike in 4th cant be running 20mph quicker without blowing the engine. How does 4th end up 1st? It could simply be down to increasingly improved acceleration for each bike in line in the tow. Yet when we see this happen it certainly appears the lead bike in a group of drafting bikes tends to suffer rather benefiting in any way, no positive air pressure pushing going on that I can see, that would surely help the leader as the bike behind approaches.

We used to call it the slingshot effect. Talk to anyone who's ever been passed coming off the wall at Daytona by a slower rider and tell them it's not a real thing. (I don't mean you should mate)

michaelm · Oct 18, 2020

Keshav said:
Not based on "butt feeling". It's accepted science based wisdom passed on by professionals, never in more than 35 years have I heard any rider dispute this. But of course "a guy on the internet" wants to argue otherwise. Believe what you will. It's not my job to change your mind. I find in situations like this, I could have Stephen Hawkins come and explain why a person is wrong, but it's a matter of pride and most guys on internet forum take stuff too personally and are not open to any differing opinion.

Leave us not drag this out. I don't want to get into a long debate. Nobody is going to change their mind. Positions are stated. People get bored with this kind of thing. Let it be. OK?

Butt feeling is probably correct though, given your butt has frequently been on the seat of a racing motorcycle.

mark419ny · Oct 19, 2020

p4p1 said:
2 excellent weekends for Alex Marquez in a row. Strongly starting to think that HRC made the wrong call replacing him with Pol.

100% agree they should have waited. Pol is highly over rated. come to think of it so is 20, and 4. crowning 20 the champ because he won a race claiming he is like marquez was just not fair to marquez and being blind. 20 was never had a fight with 46 so he was allowed to be praised by the media. 93 destroyed 46 so he was a villian.

remember it took 20 a year to win a race and the media was all over him saying he is the next coming. 93 won back to back championships and at the time was never mentioned.

evo9 · Oct 19, 2020

mark419ny said:
100% agree they should have waited. Pol is highly over rated. come to think of it so is 20, and 4. crowning 20 the champ because he won a race claiming he is like marquez was just not fair to marquez and being blind. 20 was never had a fight with 46 so he was allowed to be praised by the media. 93 destroyed 46 so he was a villian.

remember it took 20 a year to win a race and the media was all over him saying he is the next coming. 93 won back to back championships and at the time was never mentioned.

For sure Fabio is very inconsistent. I think we may see a repeat of his moto3 years.

Keshav · Oct 19, 2020

The elephant in the room; all riders have favorite tracks where they gel with the circuit, as, well as bogey tracks. The loss of Thailand, China, USA, Australia etc. really does skew the results. The fact that some riders get to race multiple times at tracks that favor their bike and/or their riding style throws outsized advantage to certain riders

Bern1 · Oct 19, 2020

This maybe true, but it is also just the fact that there are fewer tracks. If yer gonna race, ya gotta do it at a track. Just like always, the better you are, the faster you’ll go. Doesn’t matter where. Get better at your bogey tracks is the correct advice to hand out. (Not that I’m dispensing any, he he.)

SlartyBartFast · Oct 20, 2020

I always thought it was more that the bikes didn't gel with a circuit, rather than the rider.

Keshav · Oct 20, 2020

SlartyBartFast said:
I always thought it was more that the bikes didn't gel with a circuit, rather than the rider.

It's both, but recall if you will, Stoner was largely unbeatable at Phillip Island regardless of which bike he was on. He won at Qatar in the old 250 class and came back to win there in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011. (2006 - his rookie year - he was 5th on a half-... LCR Honda with ...... mismatched tires)

Riders at all levels agree that they're more comfortable or more adept, on one side vs the other. If you keep track of places where a given rider makes his passes they tend to be mostly in a left or right. Of course they have to be good at both, but there's always a preference, so tracks with predominantly left turns will favor certain riders and right turns, others. Stoner, as well as many of the great American riders, started out in pee wee flat track classes and on into their teen years, on tracks where they only turned to the left, so for sure left turn passes were deeply in the their DNA.

michaelm · Oct 20, 2020

Keshav said:
It's both, but recall if you will, Stoner was largely unbeatable at Phillip Island regardless of which bike he was on. He won at Qatar in the old 250 class and came back to win there in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011. (2006 - his rookie year - he was 5th on a half-... LCR Honda with ...... mismatched tires)

Riders at all levels agree that they're more comfortable or more adept, on one side vs the other. If you keep track of places where a given rider makes his passes they tend to be mostly in a left or right. Of course they have to be good at both, but there's always a preference, so tracks with predominantly left turns will favor certain riders and right turns, others. Stoner, as well as many of the great American riders, started out in pee wee flat track classes and on into their teen years, on tracks where they only turned to the left, so for sure left turn passes were deeply in the their DNA.

The really great riders can limit the damage at their less favoured tracks however, leading me to the conclusion there is no rider in the field who is truly great currently, although the possibility exists I guess that the current Michelins are so execrable that even peak MM or peak Rossi, or peak Stoner for that matter, couldn’t ride them at all at some tracks.

SlartyBartFast · Oct 21, 2020

Execrable. "Extremely bad or unpleasant". I had to look that one up Mike. This can also be be applied to my work environment at the moment. I believe the Michelin's are as you say, and I can't help it, but I will always be a little suspicious on who wins the tyre lottery each race weekend.

michaelm · Oct 21, 2020

SlartyBartFast said:
Execrable. "Extremely bad or unpleasant". I had to look that one up Mike. This can also be be applied to my work environment at the moment. I believe the Michelin's are as you say, and I can't help it, but I will always be a little suspicious on who wins the tyre lottery each race weekend.

I did think the current Michelins required a strong adjective.

Keshav · Oct 21, 2020

SlartyBartFast said:
Execrable. "Extremely bad or unpleasant". I had to look that one up Mike. This can also be be applied to my work environment at the moment. I believe the Michelin's are as you say, and I can't help it, but I will always be a little suspicious on who wins the tyre lottery each race weekend.

I don't have a quotable source, but I do recollect hearing that Michelin slicks are much less uniform in quality than those from Dunlop and B-Stone.

misfit · Oct 21, 2020

:yahoo: Loved the race. Good on Rins and Alex Marquez for that edge of seat display.

I do agree with the view that Marc's absence from the team may well have played in Alex's hand. Alex had enough negativity to mentally deal with without this brothers confirmation that the bike as it was at the start of the year is enough to get a great result. Alex would likely have continued to struggle and then some. With Marc out of the picture, Honda had to dig deep and delivered just enough for Alex to work with and without his brother's shadow. Seems to have worked great and will likely continue to do so once Alex joins the LCR team. Pol can take on being teammates with Marc.

Keshav · Oct 21, 2020

misfit said:
:yahoo: Loved the race. Good on Rins and Alex Marquez for that edge of seat display.

I do agree with the view that Marc's absence from the team may well have played in Alex's hand. Alex had enough negativity to mentally deal with without this brothers confirmation that the bike as it was at the start of the year is enough to get a great result. Alex would likely have continued to struggle and then some. With Marc out of the picture, Honda had to dig deep and delivered just enough for Alex to work with and without his brother's shadow. Seems to have worked great and will likely continue to do so once Alex joins the LCR team. Pol can take on being teammates with Marc.

It'll be interesting to see if Marc will use the bike in Alex spec or will he go with the idiosyncratic go-nuts set-up all over again. His influence in that regard will obviously have great effect on Pol's being able to gel with it.

michaelm · Oct 21, 2020

misfit said:
:yahoo: Loved the race. Good on Rins and Alex Marquez for that edge of seat display.

I do agree with the view that Marc's absence from the team may well have played in Alex's hand. Alex had enough negativity to mentally deal with without this brothers confirmation that the bike as it was at the start of the year is enough to get a great result. Alex would likely have continued to struggle and then some. With Marc out of the picture, Honda had to dig deep and delivered just enough for Alex to work with and without his brother's shadow. Seems to have worked great and will likely continue to do so once Alex joins the LCR team. Pol can take on being teammates with Marc.

Maybe HRC are smarter than we think, have had full confidence in Alex all along, and the plan was always for him to lead a different development direction to produce bikes suited to mere mortal riders, as was supposedly the plan with Lorenzo but did not prove feasible riding the MM bike alongside MM, but would probably be more feasible riding for LCR with full factory support.

misfit · Oct 22, 2020

Keshav said:
It'll be interesting to see if Marc will use the bike in Alex spec or will he go with the idiosyncratic go-nuts set-up all over again. His influence in that regard will obviously have great effect on Pol's being able to gel with it.

Marc seems Stoner-esque in attitude with the bike from my understanding with how he opines. Marc's priority is a fast bike and not an easy ride. He is capable of riding around the difficulties and extracting the performance. Most of the MotoGP riders need the bike to behave in a way that allows them to ride as they would like to.

So I would expect that if Marc comes along and is able to win races and championships with the current bike, he and Honda will be a happy. If he can't, then the bike is not fast enough, albeit more rideable. He would then be happy to go back to a fast, though difficult configuration.

Keshav · Oct 22, 2020

misfit said:
Marc seems Stoner-esque in attitude with the bike from my understanding with how he opines. Marc's priority is a fast bike and not an easy ride. He is capable of riding around the difficulties and extracting the performance. Most of the MotoGP riders need the bike to behave in a way that allows them to ride as they would like to.

So I would expect that if Marc comes along and is able to win races and championships with the current bike, he and Honda will be a happy. If he can't, then the bike is not fast enough, albeit more rideable. He would then be happy to go back to a fast, though difficult configuration.

I'm thinking if the bike is fast enough for Alex to come from that far back and 2nd on the podium, it seems likely to be fast enough for his more accomplished brother to do even better. Only reason I can think of for him to prefer the less rider friendly bike, is to make the bike less compatible for other Honda riders, which I think is a bit farfetched, but hey, you never know.

michaelm · Oct 22, 2020

Keshav said:
I'm thinking if the bike is fast enough for Alex to come from that far back and 2nd on the podium, it seems likely to be fast enough for his more accomplished brother to do even better. Only reason I can think of for him to prefer the less rider friendly bike, is to make the bike less compatible for other Honda riders, which I think is a bit farfetched, but hey, you never know.

Mick Doohan reputedly picked a screamer engine at one time for just this reason, but also had a bit of a thing about his settings being given to other Honda riders, to all of them in one particular season iirc.

I can’t see MM being worried about other Honda riders, just as Stoner was not worried about team-mates having his data, but you never know as you say. They did have different mindsets, extracting the maximum performance from the bike and beating the track were Stoner’s main objectives, MM loves beating the other riders.

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