Use your own brain man rather than taking the whines of a spoiled brat who just been wronged. Think what the rear of a GP bike looks like, then imagine where the .... all these marshal hands are going to go to push the ....... thing. Then think of all those body's and legs tripping over each other. Jeez any more than 2 pushing a bike will imped and as gaz said, stoner had 3 or 4 marshals helping him.
Casey and the Marshalls
- Thread starter The California Kid
- Start date
Use your own brain man rather than taking the whines of a spoiled brat who just been wronged. Think what the rear of a GP bike looks like, then imagine where the .... all these marshal hands are going to go to push the ....... thing. Then think of all those body's and legs tripping over each other. Jeez any more than 2 pushing a bike will imped and as gaz said, stoner had 3 or 4 marshals helping him.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
I don't have a copy of the clip from that race handy. My impression was that Stoner's complaint wasn't to do with the number of marshals who gave a push but rather that there were more of them giving a more concerted effort to get Rossi out of the gravel and that Rossi (who initiated the incident) was given first priority which was inappropriate since A. he screwed up and B. wasn't even in the running for the championship.
This is the third time this vid has been posted in this thread !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYNe6VzhNo0&feature=player_embedded
Looking at it again it looks like the marshals tried to push the bike before Rossi got started but it looks like it was locked up. Probably still in gear and the clutch not pulled in. @about 28 secs.
If what your saying above is true than Caseys problem was nothing more than jealousy that rossi got more attention as opposed to help.
All I see is Rossi's bike probably still running, a short push and he mostly ends up paddeling himself out as they turn around to deal with Stoners bike.
Was it 5 guys trying to bump start Stoners bike which is obviously stalled, and these things, are by all accounts, notoriously hard to bump start even in the dry....let alone in the wet.
He's got every right to be upset and angry at being taken out.....but the rest ?
The argument that they should have helped Stoner first is kind of moot. How can you say they didn't see Rossi's bike running, think "right, lets clear the easy one first, then get on with the stalled one"
Leaving the running bike there to deal with itself, while you .... around trying to push a stalled bike around it, and then trying to get it going would seem
A)Comical
B)Illogical
C) Dangerous
Was it 5 guys trying to bump start Stoners bike which is obviously stalled, and these things, are by all accounts, notoriously hard to bump start even in the dry....let alone in the wet.
He's got every right to be upset and angry at being taken out.....but the rest ?
The argument that they should have helped Stoner first is kind of moot. How can you say they didn't see Rossi's bike running, think "right, lets clear the easy one first, then get on with the stalled one"
Leaving the running bike there to deal with itself, while you .... around trying to push a stalled bike around it, and then trying to get it going would seem
A)Comical
B)Illogical
C) Dangerous
Sachsenring.
http://youtu.be/N5p43OaCRhw
Sorry, not sure how to post the youtube stuff so it appears in the message as the above post has.
I count 13 bikes passing by the time he's walking away. My money is on it taking longer to push the bike out than that, and with 2 corners to go....
exactly how many points did the German marshals cost him ?
If people think he's a fantastic rider, no argument here.
If people believe his constant complaining that everyone and everything is against him, well....that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.
http://youtu.be/N5p43OaCRhw
Sorry, not sure how to post the youtube stuff so it appears in the message as the above post has.
I count 13 bikes passing by the time he's walking away. My money is on it taking longer to push the bike out than that, and with 2 corners to go....
exactly how many points did the German marshals cost him ?
If people think he's a fantastic rider, no argument here.
If people believe his constant complaining that everyone and everything is against him, well....that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Apologies if this has already been mentioned on this thread - (it's quite laborious having to trawl through countless trolled images of rear bicycle wheels). From memory the slipper clutch system on the Honda was revised after this race because it was pracitcally impossible to restart the Honda given the slight incline without the forked/pronged locking device required at the time. I acknowledge the fact that the Marshalls didn't know this but even given an army of orange vests Casey wouldn't have been able to start the race - and ulike the marshals - he certainly would have known this
I am entirely sick of all argument on this forum, and there was no soundtrack to the action off the track, but I think stoner's problem was that no-one offered to help him at all initially. I don't know that he expected help, he was trying to re-start the bike himself, and seemed to only gesture for help when he realised several marshalls were helping rossi back on the track and none were helping him, fruitless though subsequent events proved any help would be. After his gesture one of the rossi marshalls ran over to him, followed by several others who arrived from the opposite direction. So did stoner act dangerously by removing his bike from on top of rossi, moving it well away from rossi on his own and I think further away from the track and then trying to re-start it himself ? Do you think rossi remaining near the track with his bike down but still running with any danger attendant on that might possibly have had some relationship to rossi still having his hand on the throttle?.
The video completely contradicts what you have just said above ! Stoner along with some of his fans have a persecution complex. We are talking about such a small time frame here its unbelievable to criticize.
I've watched it three times in row now, and can't see it the way you indicate.
What I did notice though, is that both bikes start to move forward at about the same time.
One because it was obviously running, the other because 10 marshals (exageration) are pushing it, it only fails to proceed because it won't start.
I am ambivalent towards Stoner, Rossi........or anyone who isn't Schwantz, Malcom Campell or Beattie (though Bradl is warming me up),.......however, every time things don't go his way, or work out the way he would have hoped, somebody else caused it.
The kid even claimed 50/50 with the Bautista thing last night.....let alone the Sachsenring stuff.
About the only incident I think he had any validity to with his claims was with RdP....though punching him in the arm was a bit over the top, depending on your point of view.
Koncinski, Biaggi and Stoner.
One has more talent in his left nut than the other two combined.
The total shame of it is, he shares the same disposition in regards to the rest of the world.
What I did notice though, is that both bikes start to move forward at about the same time.
One because it was obviously running, the other because 10 marshals (exageration) are pushing it, it only fails to proceed because it won't start.
I am ambivalent towards Stoner, Rossi........or anyone who isn't Schwantz, Malcom Campell or Beattie (though Bradl is warming me up),.......however, every time things don't go his way, or work out the way he would have hoped, somebody else caused it.
The kid even claimed 50/50 with the Bautista thing last night.....let alone the Sachsenring stuff.
About the only incident I think he had any validity to with his claims was with RdP....though punching him in the arm was a bit over the top, depending on your point of view.
Koncinski, Biaggi and Stoner.
One has more talent in his left nut than the other two combined.
The total shame of it is, he shares the same disposition in regards to the rest of the world.
And yet we criticise rider actions, inactions and decisions as if our opinion matters or will make a difference.
Yes you are correct in that it was a small time frame in which decisions had to be made and actions taken by Stoner, Rossi and two separate teams of marshalls (thankfully no doctors) all of whom in their minds made the correct decision as to their own actions and no doubt post incident actions and comments.
You, I and many others have a different opinion and irrespective of our feelings on the matter nor what we believe we have seen, our opinions will not change with regards to the Jerez subject (be that in 2011 or 2005) but suffice to say that it will be an interesting 2013.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Exactly so. Stoner had in essence already begun the process of doing what the corner marshals needed to do. Rossi was not injured and should not have been their priority.
If you're staging a play and the lead actor playing Romeo gets injured by a falling prop and needs medical attention at the same time that some understudy playing an un-named face in a crowd gets a paper cut - which of these two logically would you have the house doctor attend?
If you're a cop and you see some drunk with no go through a red light and take out an innocent person on a motorcycle and the drunk is uninjured and the motorcyclist (assuming he doesn't want to press charges) needs a bump start in order to get to work. Do you lavish all your attention on the the guy who went through the red light or the injured party?
It's about priorities.
Actually Kesh (and I know Michael will not agree with me here either) but the priority is and should be to clear the immediate danger from teh area, irrespective of who was at fault or why the bikes are in the location and dare I suggest it (the Boner I am ........... speaking of which, is an anti-Boner a flaccid?
Essentially (and I have mentioned this somewhere else) it is not a marshalls job to assign fault, responsibility or culpability ............. their task is clear cut (but does need to be altered and clarified to avoid situations like Jerez 2011 and Jerez 2012 Moto3)
Where I have an issue is the subsequent actions that were performed by some (note not all) of the same marshalls.
But (and I have said this before ...... including in 2011) I will side with Rog and co in saying that IMO the marshall who did push Stoner did well over and above what I feel he should have done and that marshall does not deserve to be included, nor tarred with any criticisms (IMO)
Anyone else notice how many times stoner uses the word "we" when things go wrong but rarely uses the word "I" unless things went right?
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Actually Kesh (and I know Michael will not agree with me here either) but the priority is and should be to clear the immediate danger from teh area, irrespective of who was at fault or why the bikes are in the location and dare I suggest it (the Boner I am ........... speaking of which, is an anti-Boner a flaccid?) in this case the marshalls did a reasonable job.
Essentially (and I have mentioned this somewhere else) it is not a marshalls job to assign fault, responsibility or culpability ............. their task is clear cut (but does need to be altered and clarified to avoid situations like Jerez 2011 and Jerez 2012 Moto3)
Where I have an issue is the subsequent actions that were performed by some (note not all) of the same marshalls.
But (and I have said this before ...... including in 2011) I will side with Rog and co in saying that IMO the marshall who did push Stoner did well over and above what I feel he should have done and that marshall does not deserve to be included, nor tarred with any criticisms (IMO)
Thanks for a reasonable well thought out post. What I don't get is how anyone arrives at the conclusion
that giving priority attention to Stoner (who was the contender) over Ross would somehow raise the danger index.
I've never tried to disect it before.
In that instance, maybe the danger point was also moot. I just tried to imagine being one of the marshals, and in that vein I would have been trying to react quickly and concisely.....I probably would have seen one rider pick his bike up, "right, he's up, the others down....pick him up....he's going.... ...., the other bloke hasn't moved yet, push !!"
....or something.
Unless it's something as stupid and dangerous as what we saw with the Spanish marshals this year, I guess I just feel it's rude to involve or blame someone for your own misconcieved ideas of what actually happened.
To go back to the start, sure...be pissed off at Rossi for knocking you down.
The rest..........???
In that instance, maybe the danger point was also moot. I just tried to imagine being one of the marshals, and in that vein I would have been trying to react quickly and concisely.....I probably would have seen one rider pick his bike up, "right, he's up, the others down....pick him up....he's going.... ...., the other bloke hasn't moved yet, push !!"
....or something.
Unless it's something as stupid and dangerous as what we saw with the Spanish marshals this year, I guess I just feel it's rude to involve or blame someone for your own misconcieved ideas of what actually happened.
To go back to the start, sure...be pissed off at Rossi for knocking you down.
The rest..........???
Because rossi's bike was in front so blocking stoner, plus it would take longer and more room to try and start stoner's bike than rossi's which was still running. I've said all this before but maybe you missed it like you missed the vid that has now been post no less than 3 times in this very thread !
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
With all due respect, the video is of poor quality and very jumpy making it rather difficult for me to make a full judgement from.
I can't honestly tell from it to what degree Rossi's bike blocking Stoner's was a result of the amount of assistance from the marshals. It didn't just magically appear there.
I do wish there were better quality video. It's certainly fair to say that the marshals could not have (at that point in time) known
it would be near to impossible to get Stoner re-started. I reckon they thought they'd get both riders restarted. I haven't implied
favoritism per se on the part of the marshals - but the fact that Rossi was at the bottom of the pile-up and still ended up the first one away points reasonably to the logical conclusion that he was the first to get useful assistance.
You can't tell anything from that video which was taken from the other side of the track. I found it hard to tally with my memory of the events. You get a good view of it on the official motogp.com video to which you have access if you are a subscriber, it is lap 9 or 10.
It's the internets... If I wanted a serious life-altering debate I would go get another degree.
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