assen, round 7..... the race!

We've had the 800s for going on three years now and the way the races space out is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Does anyone else think it's time for the Commission to vote the 990 technical regs back into the rules? It's time to declare the 800s a bust and move on. We tried it. We gave it a good run. Now, if we can't have half liter strokers, then it's time to get the 1Ks back on the grid.

Someone start one of those online petitions, I hear they always work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 29 2009, 03:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok, I may have missed it but I am a little lost as I am not responding to any posts or accusations so not sure how you draw that bow. My comments are aimed purely at Laguna Seca and whether CS can compete.

To me it appears obvious with teh naked eye that the Yamaha is a far easier bike to ride physically as it is smoth, handles well (holds tight lines etc) whereas the Ducatie appears to require a ride to almost seem to fight it. This of course (if correct) means that the Ducati rider is using more physical effort to be able to compete, and of course the flow on is the mental strain/drain that results.

I am fully aware that CS makes no mention of the illness prior to the race but again, I was not discussing that aspect so you have either misread or misunderstood the post





Garry

It dose surely look like the Yamaha is easier to ride but I remember Casey saying in an interview last week that "You dont know who is going to pull a gap or who is going to drop it. We've still got a lot of work to do with our bike and Yamaha have kind of hit a plateau. We just need to find that last bit to be truely competitive" I cant remember where I read that but thought it was a very interesting comment. If I find the source again I'll link it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jun 29 2009, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It dose surely look like the Yamaha is easier to ride but I remember Casey saying in an interview last week that "You dont know who is going to pull a gap or who is going to drop it. We've still got a lot of work to do with our bike and Yamaha have kind of hit a plateau. We just need to find that last bit to be truely competitive" I cant remember where I read that but thought it was a very interesting comment. If I find the source again I'll link it


Please do as it will be interesting and personally I have thoughts that he may be correct given that each team does seem to implement a new development that improves some aspect, then plateau. Otherst hen do the same and so on, a cnever ending cycle that is never truly in synch where each manufacturer gets the improvements to their teams at the same time.

I say this as it was said that prior to Catalunya (from memory) Yamaha had implemented new or improved electronics and since that point we have seen two dominant Yamaha 1-2 finishes (admittedly with an ill Stoner). It is a similar pattern to last year where the Duke had little improvement early, then received updates and CS went on a three race streak prior to Laguna, so maybe he knows what is coming.


By the way, read a very interesting excerpt claiming that Sete Gibernau was interviewed by Julian Ryder (? - think that was who) and one of the questions was Traction Control. Sete stated basically that he did not like it and that Stoner hates it and wants it turned off which is an interesting comment - if true. Again it was a forum post and not a direct link as the interview was televised - will try to find theforum link.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jun 29 2009, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It dose surely look like the Yamaha is easier to ride but I remember Casey saying in an interview last week that "You dont know who is going to pull a gap or who is going to drop it. We've still got a lot of work to do with our bike and Yamaha have kind of hit a plateau. We just need to find that last bit to be truely competitive" I cant remember where I read that but thought it was a very interesting comment. If I find the source again I'll link it
Weird comment by Stoner. I don't think he has sufficient insight into the Yamaha team to know if the bike has hit a plateau or not. Seems to me like the Yamaha has continuously improved the bike. Just look at the straight line performance. There's basically no difference between the Ducati and the Yamaha anymore.

Don't know if it's been mentioned somewhere else, but Elías received a 20s penalty from race direction for the incident where he banged against Capirossi. So he's actually 12th now.

Toni said he apologises to Capi and accepts the sanction.

I'm very pissed at race direction decisions, Elías did hit Capi's bike, forcing Capi to take a wider line in the corner and losing the position ... but just a couple of weeks agoo Simoncelli rode into Bautista, almost knocking him down sending him to the gravel trap and he got away with that (1500€ fine).

I think this was totally unfair towards Elías, race direction needs to be coherent with it's past decisions.

I have found that quote from Casey but I'm afraid the source may be more contravorsial than the actual quote. It was from last weeks MCN, I checked their site but could not find it

Teomolca I agree, race direction a very unbalanced. I defended Marco and his move on Bautisa. What applys for one should apply to all. Are race direction the same people at every race?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jun 29 2009, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have found that quote from Casey but I'm afraid the source may be more contravorsial than the actual quote. It was from last weeks MCN, I checked their site but could not find it

Teomolca I agree, race direction a very unbalanced. I defended Marco and his move on Bautisa. What applys for one should apply to all. Are race direction the same people at every race?
i believe its a chap called Paul Butler who is the race direction boss, he is known for bad decision making and inconsistancy imo. Remember the Tamada gibbers incident at motegi in 02 or 03. gibbers cried foul, Tamada got a race ban i think only for Butler to admit he was wrong some months later. ...... tamada's championship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 29 2009, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i believe its a chap called Paul Butler who is the race direction boss, he is known for bad decision making and inconsistancy imo. Remember the Tamada gibbers incident at motegi in 02 or 03. gibbers cried foul, Tamada got a race ban i think only for Butler to admit he was wrong some months later. ...... tamada's championship.


Thanks Roger, I had that typed up but couldn't remember the affected rider.

From memory wasn't Tamada also DQ'd from that race, 4th I think it was as well.

Either way, there is a lack of consistency and that is the crucial aspect with disciplinary actions as if consistency exists that the public tends not to cry foul. But, with consistency needs to be a deterrent factor and as such the penalty must suit the crime and should (IMO here) take into consideration the riders history.


As for the decision makers, do we have the same per category or do they tend to replace certain positions depending on the category?

If we have different decision makers, it could explain the differences between teh two more recent incidents






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 29 2009, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks Roger, I had that typed up but couldn't remember the affected rider.

From memory wasn't Tamada also DQ'd from that race, 4th I think it was as well.

Either way, there is a lack of consistency and that is the crucial aspect with disciplinary actions as if consistency exists that the public tends not to cry foul. But, with consistency needs to be a deterrent factor and as such the penalty must suit the crime and should (IMO here) take into consideration the riders history.


As for the decision makers, do we have the same per category or do they tend to replace certain positions depending on the category?

If we have different decision makers, it could explain the differences between teh two more recent incidents






Garry
I think he did indeed get DQ'd from that race as well as a ban from the next race and a fine. This was an over reaction to a racing incident. This over reaction was i believe because of the untimely death of Kato, something that dirt bag gibbers would waste no time in reminding people of to further his own positions. Race Direction have been known for "knee jerk" decisions in the past but having said that i dont envy there job. Just look how we all disagree whether something was close or dirty racing

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 29 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think he did indeed get DQ'd from that race as well as a ban from the next race and a fine. This was an over reaction to a racing incident. This over reaction was i believe because of the untimely death of Kato, something that dirt bag gibbers would waste no time in reminding people of to further his own positions. Race Direction have been known for "knee jerk" decisions in the past but having said that i dont envy there job. Just look how we all disagree whether something was close or dirty racing


I have stood in race control numerous times at club meetings or been present at nationals when incidents have occurred and can say that it can be very difficult to even get close to an understanding of an incident.

Generally where no footage is available (which from memory was partially to blame with the Tamada/Gibernau as all footage showed the aftermath) you can only rely on the riders, witnessing riders and/or marshalls. The probelm being that all riders have vested interest and many when marshalling you tend to be looking at a place or in a direction, not so much the bikes and definitely nothing closely (club level is different to a degree). So you can miss things, but that said I have seen many different things with relative ease but at club level the responsibility and pressure on the marshalls is greatly reduced.

I agree it probably was a major over-reaction as (from memory) all reports indicated a last lap lunge with minimal if any contact thet resulted in Gibbers in the sand but upright. Was it not said saomewhere that many believe that Gibernau actually palyed up the incident because of championship placings?







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jun 28 2009, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and 2nd to stoner in 2007.. seems like he likes laguna. they did a mileage comparison in 2007 quali between him and hopkins and he travelled a few hundred yards shorter distance than hopper on their fastest laps. seems he knows the shortest line around the place and that might be why he always seems to go well here. if only he could go well at all the other tracks too!
Well irrespective of Chris, the Suzuki, it seems to me, doesn't seem to like being on its side for long, which is why the sweepers at Phillip Island crucify it each year (when it's dry). Admittedly this malady doesn't seem to be so pronounced this year, but although it is nimble, and certainly doesn't lack corner speed, Loris been very vocal about the lack of punch out of a turn. The only place where this could be really telling next weekend is out of the final turn into the home straight.

Anyway, the arrival of this new block seems to have been yet another false dawn.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Parc Ferme @ Jun 29 2009, 06:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We've had the 800s for going on three years now and the way the races space out is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Does anyone else think it's time for the Commission to vote the 990 technical regs back into the rules? It's time to declare the 800s a bust and move on. We tried it. We gave it a good run. Now, if we can't have half liter strokers, then it's time to get the 1Ks back on the grid.

Someone start one of those online petitions, I hear they always work.

Yes - lots of us, but try getting GS Fan to sign it

The online petitions, and the awareness generated on the forums certainly proved instrumental in the reinstatement of Eurosport coverage....It's a shame that in a recent column, Julian Ryder referred to the 'social inadequates that populate such places'. Perhaps he's just seen Pinky's posts, or maybe just 'Crash net forum'

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 29 2009, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i believe its a chap called Paul Butler who is the race direction boss, he is known for bad decision making and inconsistancy imo. Remember the Tamada gibbers incident at motegi in 02 or 03. gibbers cried foul, Tamada got a race ban i think only for Butler to admit he was wrong some months later. ...... tamada's championship.
Good call - I remember this well. Franco Uncini, is the other safety official. Butler went on a witch hunt after the death of Daichan and in addition to the Tamada affair, he was particularly harsh on Hopper. Don't forget that the Tamada we're talking about here was very very potent 'Vale beating' force on those Bridgestone's and that V5 Honda on their day. That's when I first realised the awesome potential and comparative advantage (side grip, front end feel), that the tyres had over Michelin.

The irony is, that Butler should have stood down after Kato's death. The race should've been stopped immediately. In fact it sickens me to recall it. Notice that yesterday, the paramedics didn't move Haga until they were sure that thy had diagnosed the extent of his injuries. They erected the barrier and treated him where he lay. Butler should have red flagged that race at Suzuka instantly. Daijiro wasn't hit by another rider, and the entire field had passed safely by. The image of him being shoveled onto a stretcher, carted off track, and dumped at the side still haunts me. The race was run, and the TV schedules were unhindered. Should've been red flagged..it wasn't, and I'll never understand why, nor will I comprehend why Butler is still in the position of race director.

This was unquestionably one of the worst decisions I have ever seen in motorsport

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Parc Ferme @ Jun 29 2009, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We've had the 800s for going on three years now and the way the races space out is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Does anyone else think it's time for the Commission to vote the 990 technical regs back into the rules? It's time to declare the 800s a bust and move on. We tried it. We gave it a good run. Now, if we can't have half liter strokers, then it's time to get the 1Ks back on the grid.

Someone start one of those online petitions, I hear they always work.


Pure nonsense. It has been so long since the 990's were on track I'll bet you'd be amazed by what happened in a heads up race. 990 vs 800. Pick a track and watch the 990 get decimated.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jun 29 2009, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pure nonsense. It has been so long since the 990's were on track I'll bet you'd be amazed by what happened in a heads up race. 990 vs 800. Pick a track and watch the 990 get decimated.


That was a joke right?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jun 29 2009, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pure nonsense. It has been so long since the 990's were on track I'll bet you'd be amazed by what happened in a heads up race. 990 vs 800. Pick a track and watch the 990 get decimated.
Of course they'd be decimated, but only due to the lack of development which would have handicapped the 990's in their absence.

If you developed both formula's alongside one another and raced them together it'd be hilarious.

But forget that...ban the electrics on both first.

Imagine the 990's barreling into a corner like monster flat trackers on acid, disrupting the perfect parabola that the 800's need to inscribe, and gunning out of the chaos, in a haze of burning rubber?

Irrespective of the who would win, I can tell you what'd be more entertaining to watch.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 28 2009, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Like you Roger, I expect the battle to be a Yamaha cup but for some reason have a small feeling that this could turn nasty at Laguna

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Jun 29 2009, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course they'd be decimated, but only due to the lack of development which would have handicapped the 990's in their absence.

If you developed both formula's alongside one another and raced them together it'd be hilarious.

But forget that...ban the electrics on both first.

Imagine the 990's barreling into a corner like monster flat trackers on acid, disrupting the perfect parabola that the 800's need to inscribe, and gunning out of the chaos, in a haze of burning rubber?

Irrespective of the who would win, I can tell you what'd be more entertaining to watch.


Exacty, the 800s are too 250esque. What will it be like with Moto2 longside the 800s, I think pointless

man, there was no denying rossi yesterday. he was gonna win - no matter what!

nice to see hayden up there, even if it only lasted for a little while.

still a while to go, but rossi is looking pretty darn good to win yet another title.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Jun 29 2009, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Imagine the 990's barreling into a corner like monster flat trackers on acid, disrupting the perfect parabola that the 800's need to inscribe, and gunning out of the chaos, in a haze of burning rubber?

You're the Charles Bukowski of the motorcycle world.