Joined Jun 2008
2K Posts | 6+
America
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jul 2 2009, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your right I do appreicate Stoner very much so, but worshiping Valentino?? By stating what is pretty much fact is now worship
. Can a person not admire and praise a(any) rider when he achieves something that is beyond our normal comprehension and capabilities. Your just as sad as any fanboy becasue its easy to see you take all this talking down of Stoner very personally. And that makes putting down Stoner so much fun
No dude I just think it is over the top JUST like those (not so much YOu) that do the same with Vale. I am not on either side to much like that just really appriciate the fact that they all pretty much kick ... and make the pinnicle of racing fun to watch and talk about. So we are not to far off the path from each other.
No dude I just think it is over the top JUST like those (not so much YOu) that do the same with Vale. I am not on either side to much like that just really appriciate the fact that they all pretty much kick ... and make the pinnicle of racing fun to watch and talk about. So we are not to far off the path from each other.
Joined Jun 2008
2K Posts | 6+
America
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jul 3 2009, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here you go guys....
a bunch of big tampoons for ya'all.
I would NOT like to see the ........ those are for!!! LOL.
a bunch of big tampoons for ya'all.
I would NOT like to see the ........ those are for!!! LOL.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 3 2009, 01:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No dude I just think it is over the top JUST like those (not so much YOu) that do the same with Vale. I am not on either side to much like that just really appriciate the fact that they all pretty much kick ... and make the pinnicle of racing fun to watch and talk about. So we are not to far off the path from each other.
Yes we share similar views, but a major difference I feel is that you are demanding something from everyone(i.e. Due respect for Stoner). Which in my view is so hypocritical its not even funny. You give out about me and others making fun of Casey calling him a moaner and so on, but yet you have done and continue to do the same to other riders. How many times did you wish Rossi to crash last year?
Yes we share similar views, but a major difference I feel is that you are demanding something from everyone(i.e. Due respect for Stoner). Which in my view is so hypocritical its not even funny. You give out about me and others making fun of Casey calling him a moaner and so on, but yet you have done and continue to do the same to other riders. How many times did you wish Rossi to crash last year?
Joined Jun 2008
2K Posts | 6+
America
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jul 3 2009, 03:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes we share similar views, but a major difference I feel is that you are demanding something from everyone(i.e. Due respect for Stoner). Which in my view is so hypocritical its not even funny. You give out about me and others making fun of Casey calling him a moaner and so on, but yet you have done and continue to do the same to other riders. How many times did you wish Rossi to crash last year?
Yeah I don'yt wish anyone to crash. You need to take anything like that with a grain of salt. The only other riders I might slag on would be pedrosa and takacrashi.
Yeah I don'yt wish anyone to crash. You need to take anything like that with a grain of salt. The only other riders I might slag on would be pedrosa and takacrashi.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 3 2009, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah I don'yt wish anyone to crash. You need to take anything like that with a grain of salt. The only other riders I might slag on would be pedrosa and takacrashi.
And so should you when Stoner is called a moaner
And so should you when Stoner is called a moaner
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 3 2009, 01:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But, again Babel, where is the eveidence that he uses a lot of TC (just as there is no real evidence that he does not).
Your assumptions are based on the noise that emanates from the bike and that may well be a way of determining taht TC is indeed cutting in and playing a role, but it is no way of determining how much TC is being used. Just as a silent or near silent Yamaha passing by is no way to deteremine that it is using little TC or a lot.
There are no evidence as you are perfectly aware of, as I don't have access to Stoner's telemetrics.
What I have is a bunch of MotoGP fans. 12 of us with a wide variation of interests, age and rider/bike preference but all know their MotoGP and some has come to assen about 15 times now. It's absolutely hilarious when die hard Ducati fans says: "No doubt, no one are close to using as much TC as Stoner. Any moron can see and hear that" and you guys sitting here in you sofaes denying reality.
We can allways argue how valuable our eyes and ears are out there on the track, and part of the problem is that the sound from the tv is absolutly crap and make any assessments impossible.
It will allways depend on comparisons and even depend on each riders style but to me and everyone I was with it was clear from what we hearda and saw that stoener rely heavy on TC and in a way no one else do. It seems like, as reporteted many times before, he depend on the TC to take over the whole "roll on power as the turn opens/ends" while the rest depend on letting the TC take over when they make a mistake or when tires fails. That is two very different approaches and they will look and sound equally different. But you have to be there, not here, to get that difference.
You got one thing right, it's not possible to do a direct comparison between the Ducati and the Yamaha so the possibility is of course there that the yamahas are using a lot of TC but there is nothing to support it and for certain Stoner are the the Ducati rider that use most TC. Maybe because he is faster but non the less.
Your assumptions are based on the noise that emanates from the bike and that may well be a way of determining taht TC is indeed cutting in and playing a role, but it is no way of determining how much TC is being used. Just as a silent or near silent Yamaha passing by is no way to deteremine that it is using little TC or a lot.
There are no evidence as you are perfectly aware of, as I don't have access to Stoner's telemetrics.
What I have is a bunch of MotoGP fans. 12 of us with a wide variation of interests, age and rider/bike preference but all know their MotoGP and some has come to assen about 15 times now. It's absolutely hilarious when die hard Ducati fans says: "No doubt, no one are close to using as much TC as Stoner. Any moron can see and hear that" and you guys sitting here in you sofaes denying reality.
We can allways argue how valuable our eyes and ears are out there on the track, and part of the problem is that the sound from the tv is absolutly crap and make any assessments impossible.
It will allways depend on comparisons and even depend on each riders style but to me and everyone I was with it was clear from what we hearda and saw that stoener rely heavy on TC and in a way no one else do. It seems like, as reporteted many times before, he depend on the TC to take over the whole "roll on power as the turn opens/ends" while the rest depend on letting the TC take over when they make a mistake or when tires fails. That is two very different approaches and they will look and sound equally different. But you have to be there, not here, to get that difference.
You got one thing right, it's not possible to do a direct comparison between the Ducati and the Yamaha so the possibility is of course there that the yamahas are using a lot of TC but there is nothing to support it and for certain Stoner are the the Ducati rider that use most TC. Maybe because he is faster but non the less.
Babel, we can go on adfinitum as you have a totally different view on things than my sofa clad moronic ......s mind does.
I do not and never have argued that Stoner uses TC and nor does anyone else. Noboofy argues taht the popping you so readily describe and has been described by otehrs exists and is in some way an identifier that the electronics on that machine are at that time operating.
But, what people will argue against is your assertion as fact that Stoner uses more TC than others because his bike makes noises that others do not.
To be fair, you can reasonably compare against Hayden as he should be running a similar package and an assumption would be so or the other Ducatis. So, to compare apples to apples (Ducati to Ducati) is a reasonable argument, although that alone still may not be valid.
To compare the Ducati against another brand is not a fair assessment as you (nor I) know the manner in which the TC works on those machines. It may very well be that the TC on the other machines do not operate in the same (in terms of delivery or interference) as the Ducati and as such it could well explain why the Ducati pops but the others do not. Alternately, if they are using identical systems in identical manners and all bikes should therefore 'pop' when the TC cuts in than I suspect that to be a wrong basis as others in the field will use the TC.
Personally and my point is simply that you cannot determine the level of TC in use without access to telemetry and as such to say that Rider X uses more than Rider Y but Rider Z uses none is fraught with danger and not fact, but opinion or assumption.
What you are hearing is an indication from one bike that elecctronics are in play, other bikes would possibly have other indicators that would not be as obvious.
Let me as you this.
Do you think athat all riders in the field are making us of their electronics packages or do you feel that some turn it off and use no electronics?
As a sidenote. I and others are being civil and not resorting to using terms like ...... or moron to describe different opinions, there is no need to use those terms as it simply diminishes from any argument you may provide.
Garry
I do not and never have argued that Stoner uses TC and nor does anyone else. Noboofy argues taht the popping you so readily describe and has been described by otehrs exists and is in some way an identifier that the electronics on that machine are at that time operating.
But, what people will argue against is your assertion as fact that Stoner uses more TC than others because his bike makes noises that others do not.
To be fair, you can reasonably compare against Hayden as he should be running a similar package and an assumption would be so or the other Ducatis. So, to compare apples to apples (Ducati to Ducati) is a reasonable argument, although that alone still may not be valid.
To compare the Ducati against another brand is not a fair assessment as you (nor I) know the manner in which the TC works on those machines. It may very well be that the TC on the other machines do not operate in the same (in terms of delivery or interference) as the Ducati and as such it could well explain why the Ducati pops but the others do not. Alternately, if they are using identical systems in identical manners and all bikes should therefore 'pop' when the TC cuts in than I suspect that to be a wrong basis as others in the field will use the TC.
Personally and my point is simply that you cannot determine the level of TC in use without access to telemetry and as such to say that Rider X uses more than Rider Y but Rider Z uses none is fraught with danger and not fact, but opinion or assumption.
What you are hearing is an indication from one bike that elecctronics are in play, other bikes would possibly have other indicators that would not be as obvious.
Let me as you this.
Do you think athat all riders in the field are making us of their electronics packages or do you feel that some turn it off and use no electronics?
As a sidenote. I and others are being civil and not resorting to using terms like ...... or moron to describe different opinions, there is no need to use those terms as it simply diminishes from any argument you may provide.
Garry
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jul 4 2009, 04:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And so should you when Stoner is called a moaner
Waaah Waaaah Waaaah .... Stoner did this Stoner did that Waaaaaahhh
get over it girlfriend
Waaah Waaaah Waaaah .... Stoner did this Stoner did that Waaaaaahhh
get over it girlfriend
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 4 2009, 08:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Babel, we can go on adfinitum as you have a totally different view on things than my sofa clad moronic ......s mind does.
As a sidenote. I and others are being civil and not resorting to using terms like ...... or moron to describe different opinions, there is no need to use those terms as it simply diminishes from any argument you may provide.
We certainly don't agree in everything but you are absolutely right that other bikes than the ducaties are impossible to compare, by sound only.
However you failed to comment on the full throttle thing. It is, despite junkie's beliefs , quite easy to see someone whacking it open. Specially since this hardly has been done since the introduction of the 990s. You are supposed to roll the power on gently with all that power, right? Well, there's your big difference from Stoner and the rest. He does whack it open in comparison to the rest and he does it really early, and that is possible to see.
Another food for thought: I have no doubt that if we could study the different bikes telemetry we would see that Stoners are among those were TC are working hardest. That said there is no direct line to the conclusion that he has the most aggressive TC adjustment, it could just as well be that his riding style force the TC to kick inn before it does with the other riders. His settings might even be more relaxed than many others and he still might come out using TC more. I think this is something he and Ducati has been working on from the very start and the other manufacturers are probably not at all close to a system that works that way and inside Ducati Stoner are the only one capable of using it to his advantage.
What do you think of that speculation?
Finally, don't get too occupied with that ...... stuff. It was said once, in my first post and it was meant as a joke. When I think of it, a real bad one as long as we got people like P and SS that are able to write that kind of stuff and actually mean it. So I'm sorry for that, it came out the wrong way.
As a sidenote. I and others are being civil and not resorting to using terms like ...... or moron to describe different opinions, there is no need to use those terms as it simply diminishes from any argument you may provide.
We certainly don't agree in everything but you are absolutely right that other bikes than the ducaties are impossible to compare, by sound only.
However you failed to comment on the full throttle thing. It is, despite junkie's beliefs , quite easy to see someone whacking it open. Specially since this hardly has been done since the introduction of the 990s. You are supposed to roll the power on gently with all that power, right? Well, there's your big difference from Stoner and the rest. He does whack it open in comparison to the rest and he does it really early, and that is possible to see.
Another food for thought: I have no doubt that if we could study the different bikes telemetry we would see that Stoners are among those were TC are working hardest. That said there is no direct line to the conclusion that he has the most aggressive TC adjustment, it could just as well be that his riding style force the TC to kick inn before it does with the other riders. His settings might even be more relaxed than many others and he still might come out using TC more. I think this is something he and Ducati has been working on from the very start and the other manufacturers are probably not at all close to a system that works that way and inside Ducati Stoner are the only one capable of using it to his advantage.
What do you think of that speculation?
Finally, don't get too occupied with that ...... stuff. It was said once, in my first post and it was meant as a joke. When I think of it, a real bad one as long as we got people like P and SS that are able to write that kind of stuff and actually mean it. So I'm sorry for that, it came out the wrong way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 4 2009, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We certainly don't agree in everything but you are absolutely right that other bikes than the ducaties are impossible to compare, by sound only.
However you failed to comment on the full throttle thing. It is, despite junkie's beliefs , quite easy to see someone whacking it open. Specially since this hardly has been done since the introduction of the 990s. You are supposed to roll the power on gently with all that power, right? Well, there's your big difference from Stoner and the rest. He does whack it open in comparison to the rest and he does it really early, and that is possible to see.
Another food for thought: I have no doubt that if we could study the different bikes telemetry we would see that Stoners are among those were TC are working hardest. That said there is no direct line to the conclusion that he has the most aggressive TC adjustment, it could just as well be that his riding style force the TC to kick inn before it does with the other riders. His settings might even be more relaxed than many others and he still might come out using TC more. I think this is something he and Ducati has been working on from the very start and the other manufacturers are probably not at all close to a system that works that way and inside Ducati Stoner are the only one capable of using it to his advantage.
What do you think of that speculation?
Finally, don't get too occupied with that ...... stuff. It was said once, in my first post and it was meant as a joke. When I think of it, a real bad one as long as we got people like P and SS that are able to write that kind of stuff and actually mean it. So I'm sorry for that, it came out the wrong way.
No problems.
As for the full throttle thing I have chosen not to comment on it for a few different reasons but as you insist.
On TV, throttle use is quite difficult to determine most time and in all honesty I fully suspect that the naked eye whilst trackside is also unable to determine any tell tale (ie. marked) hand movement that would indicate a full application of the throttle. But, it is likely that you are seeing a wrist of arm movement which will of course look far worse than in all reality it actually may be (this is not to say that CS does not crack open the throttle).
To me, if CS does indeed 'crack open' the throttle such as to apply full throttle on corner exist and as a result rely upon the available electronics to ensure the maximum drive and acceleration on exit of that corner, then he is doing his job. It would be extremely difficult to overcome a practice that has been inherent in his (or anyones) riding so if indeed CS does crack the throttle wide open than to me that shows incredible adaptability.
As for the TC argument it has been said recently that the Ducati has the least advanced of all systems. There has been artucles in forums that basically suggest that the Yamaha system has upto 2000 interupptions per lap (the entire electronics package) whereas the Ducati has 1000 sincet heir recent enhancement.
I recall reading a post from Kropotkin that meantioned a question Gibernau was asked about TC and he said simply taht Stoner preferred the old system of 30-40 interuptions per lap and woudl much prefer no TC as he finds it a hindrance. Do I believe it, not sure as Gibernau is a Ducati rider and of course has vested interest to say positive things.
Personally my view on TC differs anyway, to me they all have it and they all use to to its utmost in a manner that suits the bike/rider. Thise that do not will fall behind and as such we do have a level playing field.
But, wouldn't it be great to actually have access to real telemetry not the stuff we see on TV that is visibly seconds out at times (saw footage recently that showed Lornzo on brakes yet he was accelerating onto straight).
Honestly, for me I have no doubt that Stoner uses TC as and when he feels it is to his advantage, just as all riders use items that will advantage them.
Garry
However you failed to comment on the full throttle thing. It is, despite junkie's beliefs , quite easy to see someone whacking it open. Specially since this hardly has been done since the introduction of the 990s. You are supposed to roll the power on gently with all that power, right? Well, there's your big difference from Stoner and the rest. He does whack it open in comparison to the rest and he does it really early, and that is possible to see.
Another food for thought: I have no doubt that if we could study the different bikes telemetry we would see that Stoners are among those were TC are working hardest. That said there is no direct line to the conclusion that he has the most aggressive TC adjustment, it could just as well be that his riding style force the TC to kick inn before it does with the other riders. His settings might even be more relaxed than many others and he still might come out using TC more. I think this is something he and Ducati has been working on from the very start and the other manufacturers are probably not at all close to a system that works that way and inside Ducati Stoner are the only one capable of using it to his advantage.
What do you think of that speculation?
Finally, don't get too occupied with that ...... stuff. It was said once, in my first post and it was meant as a joke. When I think of it, a real bad one as long as we got people like P and SS that are able to write that kind of stuff and actually mean it. So I'm sorry for that, it came out the wrong way.
No problems.
As for the full throttle thing I have chosen not to comment on it for a few different reasons but as you insist.
On TV, throttle use is quite difficult to determine most time and in all honesty I fully suspect that the naked eye whilst trackside is also unable to determine any tell tale (ie. marked) hand movement that would indicate a full application of the throttle. But, it is likely that you are seeing a wrist of arm movement which will of course look far worse than in all reality it actually may be (this is not to say that CS does not crack open the throttle).
To me, if CS does indeed 'crack open' the throttle such as to apply full throttle on corner exist and as a result rely upon the available electronics to ensure the maximum drive and acceleration on exit of that corner, then he is doing his job. It would be extremely difficult to overcome a practice that has been inherent in his (or anyones) riding so if indeed CS does crack the throttle wide open than to me that shows incredible adaptability.
As for the TC argument it has been said recently that the Ducati has the least advanced of all systems. There has been artucles in forums that basically suggest that the Yamaha system has upto 2000 interupptions per lap (the entire electronics package) whereas the Ducati has 1000 sincet heir recent enhancement.
I recall reading a post from Kropotkin that meantioned a question Gibernau was asked about TC and he said simply taht Stoner preferred the old system of 30-40 interuptions per lap and woudl much prefer no TC as he finds it a hindrance. Do I believe it, not sure as Gibernau is a Ducati rider and of course has vested interest to say positive things.
Personally my view on TC differs anyway, to me they all have it and they all use to to its utmost in a manner that suits the bike/rider. Thise that do not will fall behind and as such we do have a level playing field.
But, wouldn't it be great to actually have access to real telemetry not the stuff we see on TV that is visibly seconds out at times (saw footage recently that showed Lornzo on brakes yet he was accelerating onto straight).
Honestly, for me I have no doubt that Stoner uses TC as and when he feels it is to his advantage, just as all riders use items that will advantage them.
Garry
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 2 2009, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats fine, i rarely write things to be read by the type of people found here. At least you finally get it now.
Yer just asking for it . . . so I have to ask, exactly where do you find the people
for whom you write? And if putting all your writings up on this forums
are the equivalent of pearls before swine - why bother?
Yer just asking for it . . . so I have to ask, exactly where do you find the people
for whom you write? And if putting all your writings up on this forums
are the equivalent of pearls before swine - why bother?
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jul 4 2009, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yer just asking for it . . . so I have to ask, exactly where do you find the people
for whom you write? And if putting all your writings up on this forums
are the equivalent of pearls before swine - why bother?
Its like your Big Bertha driver's cocked and ready and Tom's puttin' the ball on the tee... its too freaking easy!!
for whom you write? And if putting all your writings up on this forums
are the equivalent of pearls before swine - why bother?
Its like your Big Bertha driver's cocked and ready and Tom's puttin' the ball on the tee... its too freaking easy!!
Joined Jun 2008
2K Posts | 6+
America
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jul 3 2009, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And so should you when Stoner is called a moaner
yeah one or two times sure but it got to the point where it was just to much. I am all for having fun but come on.
plus the has been NO proof of it anyway, where is all this video of him cryin about things? Surely there hasd to be things all over the place if he does this all the time.
yeah one or two times sure but it got to the point where it was just to much. I am all for having fun but come on.
plus the has been NO proof of it anyway, where is all this video of him cryin about things? Surely there hasd to be things all over the place if he does this all the time.
Joined Jun 2008
2K Posts | 6+
America
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 4 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
Waaah Waaaah Waaaah .... Stoner did this Stoner did that Waaaaaahhh
get over it girlfriend
If he was moaning all the time these dudes say so don't you think they would have proof?
Waaah Waaaah Waaaah .... Stoner did this Stoner did that Waaaaaahhh
get over it girlfriend
If he was moaning all the time these dudes say so don't you think they would have proof?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 4 2009, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If he was moaning all the time these dudes say so don't you think they would have proof?
Proof
Are you ....... stupid or just on the wind up ? Maybe you dont get the interviews on your tv or read the racing press, come on open take your stoner worship glasses off and open your eyes and ears man.
Proof
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