2018 Gran Premio Movistar de Aragón Predictions + Race Chat

Keshav said:

By your thinking the opinion that Rossi's "genius" for feedback is validated by Furasawa et al.

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They aren't my words. They're Furusawa's words (who had just retired when he made those comments).

Keshav said:

But really, can you picture the same guys publicly saying their #1 marketing tool and Golden Child has of late lost his touch?

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But that applies to any factory rider (other than perhaps Iannone) - the Japanese don't go around saying that a rider provides poor feedback. You can't plausibly argue that the fact that the Japanese cannot come out and say Rossi is a poor development rider is proof that he is a poor development rider.

Also, recent history shows that Rossi's chassis feedback was correct. Zarco and Mav kept saying how the 2017 chassis concept was better than the 2016 chassis concept...then ended up conceding that they were wrong. Rossi said, all the way back at Valencia 16, that the chassis concept was not good.

Keshav said:

Just because they haven't issued a press statement to that effect doesn't make it not so.

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Who claimed anything to the contrary? See above.

The logical corollary to your argument is that just because they haven't issued a press statement to that effect does not make it so.

Keshav said:

Personally - I think it's more up to complacency in R&D and budget issues, and that Rossi's value as a developer is mostly hype. I always believed that, realistically, Rossi, being talented and a proven winner pumped up morale at Yamaha when he jumped ship, that he likely inspired people to do better work.

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It's fine to so speculate, but it's hard to call that a credible position when luminaries like Furusawa go out of their way to call Rossi a development genius (after retiring). I recall in the same interview that he said Lorenzo (at the time, I'm sure things have changed now) had a lot to learn when it came to bike feedback.

synn said:

Marky Marc’s uncle Alzamora won a title with zero race wins.

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And it almost worked out for him in 2015, but history shows the guys who actually race for wins, win the title. No MotoGp champion I can think of has won a title with zero wins in the 50 years I’ve been following the sport.

Kurryfart’s opinion > facts
So it is written.

Keshav said:

He and Furusawa had a tight relationship so naturally he would speak well of Rossi, but that doesn't rule out his being hyperbolic.

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So your argument is now becoming "Furusawa said Rossi is a development genius, but he was exaggerating because he likes Rossi." Listen to yourself.

Furusawa also said that "if Filippo (Preziosi) had listened more to Valentino, in 2012 the Desmosedici would have gone better".

Keshav said:

Why after all would the engineers ignore Rossi's preferences, unless... they believed he'd lost the magic touch?

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This argument is pretty funny. You're arguing that Yamaha's weak M1 is due to them intentionally ignoring Rossi's feedback, rather than being too slow and too conservative in implementing that feedback (as Krops and a whole variety of other commentators have explained). Occam's razor slices through this argument.

Even if your (false) premise were correct, you've found yourself in a logical trap: First, you're saying Rossi's poor feedback is the cause of Yamaha's woes. Then, you're saying that Rossi's feedback isn't being followed. If Rossi's feedback isn't being followed, and the bike is rubbish, then it seems that the engineers are wrong...not Rossi.

Keshav said:

The logical conclusion is: they don't want to alienate their #1 marketing tool.

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Another absurd argument. You're essentially arguing that the only reason Yamaha have not come out and said that Rossi is bad at development is because they don't want to alienate their 'marketing tool'.

Actually, the more credible explanation is that he is not bad at development (again, he is a development "genius" according to Furusawa).

Everyone is biased, and no doubt Furusawa’s greatest success in his career was with Rossi which is perhaps why he is rightly favourably inclined towards him, but if you are going to completely dismiss the likes of Furusawa then basically no statement from anyone has any status.

On the other hand I don’t think it can be assumed Rossi at age 39 has the same capabilities that he had when he was 25. The way the bikes and particularly the tires have evolved may mean his riding style no longer suits the current stuff. He did change his riding style to suit the Bridgestones when he switched from Michelin, but that was 10 years ago. However great Rossi once was and however good he still is at age 39, basing your entire motogp effort on the preferences and performance of a 39 year old who hasn’t won a title on 10 years is likely to be problematic ab initio imo.

The 2017 chassis didn’t seem to be too bad under Vinales on the original 2017 tires either, btw.

Agree with everything in your post, except for the following clarifications:

michaelm said:

On the other hand I don’t think it can be assumed Rossi at age 39 has the same capabilities that he had when he was 25.

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For sure, but he's still sitting third in the championship (and finished second in 2016, second in 2015, and second in 2014 - probably would've finished third last year but for the leg break). Other than MM, he's still one of the best riders in the world.

michaelm said:

The 2017 chassis didn’t seem to be too bad under Vinales on the original 2017 tires either, btw.

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It was pretty bad at Jerez (where Zarco stomped the factory Yamahas, and where Rossi destroyed the field a year before that).

Segfault said:

I agree. He opened the throttle, he was too eager to retaliate on Marc, all his own making.

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Wow, seriously? Did you folks watch a different race?

It was classic Marquez fly into a corner and force a rider wide or off the track ... casualties this time were Jorge (who did the PC thing and pretended to makeup with Spazquez). It was such an idiotic move and that's exactly why he got passed by Dovi and a Suzuki underneath because Marquez was out in never never land with ZERO moment on his quest to crash Jorge.

Jorge should have done what Dovi does, just let the crash master Marquez go in too hot, lose drive, and then re-pass him underneath. Dovi has successfully done that move all season on Marquez. In fact, he often baits Marquez into it and like the dumb little clown Marquez is ... he takes the bait.

Jorge needs to attend Dovi's class on "how to avoid getting hit by Marquez and play him like the fool he is".

Can't wait for next year, it's gonna be comical with Marquez and Jorge as teammates.

As far as Rossi, 18th to 8th and ahead of his teammate ... will the weather ever cool down so that Yamaha can be somewhat competitive? Yamaha needs to steal some of Honda's robot tech, those gyro's are clearly making the bike look good even if the rider is an ..... ... but no one is on terms with Ducati power on exit.

Dude, it was first corner of first lap. This is not the place where races are won. Losing a few places or risking crash was JLo choice. A wrong one, too.

RCV600RR said:

Agree with everything in your post, except for the following clarifications:


For sure, but he's still sitting third in the championship (and finished second in 2016, second in 2015, and second in 2014 - probably would've finished third last year but for the leg break). Other than MM, he's still one of the best riders in the world.


It was pretty bad at Jerez (where Zarco stomped the factory Yamahas, and where Rossi destroyed the field a year before that).

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Basically he doesn’t really threaten MM though, unless MM both has a bad bike and is unable to refrain from trying to win every race despite this as in 2015. Vinales at the start of last year and Lorenzo at times have looked as though they had the actual raw pace to compete with MM, albeit with a different riding style than MM’s and on tires which suited them rather than MM. One of Rossi’s problems apart from getting a year older each year starting from a base of more years anyway is that he and MM have the same preferences as far as tires are concerned. Credit to Rossi for the high finishes in the championships of course, but other riders might ride differently if their primary aim was to beat Rossi for 2nd or 3rd rather than to beat MM. I also see some irony in all this given Nicky being dubbed the “cruising caretaker” by Rossi fans in 2006, just as I do in MM being called a dangerous rider after the Argentinian race this year given “that’s racing” after the Laguna Seca 2008 race, a potentially much more dangerous high speed collision averted purely by Casey Stoner’s agency and not Valentino’s at all.

That Vinales would have continued to founder had he been allowed to keep “his” tire in 2017 is a convenient post hoc argument IMO, I don’t think that can be said on the basis of one race, there are tracks which suit and don’t suit particular riders, and I don’t recall it being said at the time. The aforementioned Zarco actually said on the record that you needed to ride the Yamaha like Lorenzo, btw.

Segfault said:

Dude, it was first corner of first lap. This is not the place where races are won. Losing a few places or risking crash was JLo choice. A wrong one, too.

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I am a Jorge fan, and MM did run him wide, but as you and I have both said it was still Jorge’s decision to make a high risk choice in the first corner of a race. Jorge has made some fairly radical moves himself at times to get to the lead after the first corner from second and further back than second.

I suspect the basic issue was that MM was going to have trouble winning the race if Jorge came out of the first corner ahead, and It was similarly problematic for Jorge if he didn’t.

Segfault said:

Dude, it was first corner of first lap. This is not the place where races are won. Losing a few places or risking crash was JLo choice. A wrong one, too.

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Exactly the point here,Lorenzo's experienced enough to know races aren't won on the first corner but sure can be lost there,so maybe Marquez pushed him a bit wide,he shouldn't have made the rookie mistake of gassing it up on the marbles and trying to dive straight back,he had the bike and the time to strike back,all his own fault in my book.

robains said:

Wow, seriously? Did you folks watch a different race?

It was classic Marquez fly into a corner and force a rider wide or off the track ... casualties this time were Jorge (who did the PC thing and pretended to makeup with Spazquez). It was such an idiotic move and that's exactly why he got passed by Dovi and a Suzuki underneath because Marquez was out in never never land with ZERO moment on his quest to crash Jorge.

Jorge should have done what Dovi does, just let the crash master Marquez go in too hot, lose drive, and then re-pass him underneath. Dovi has successfully done that move all season on Marquez. In fact, he often baits Marquez into it and like the dumb little clown Marquez is ... he takes the bait.

Jorge needs to attend Dovi's class on "how to avoid getting hit by Marquez and play him like the fool he is".

Can't wait for next year, it's gonna be comical with Marquez and Jorge as teammates.

As far as Rossi, 18th to 8th and ahead of his teammate ... will the weather ever cool down so that Yamaha can be somewhat competitive? Yamaha needs to steal some of Honda's robot tech, those gyro's are clearly making the bike look good even if the rider is an ..... ... but no one is on terms with Ducati power on exit.

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WOW!..18th to 8th and ahead of his teammate,that'll go down as a success then,no wonder you've only posted 30 times in 6 years,when can we expect the next pearl of wisdom?.

Double

robains said:

Wow, seriously? Did you folks watch a different race?

It was classic Marquez fly into a corner and force a rider wide or off the track ... casualties this time were Jorge (who did the PC thing and pretended to makeup with Spazquez). It was such an idiotic move and that's exactly why he got passed by Dovi and a Suzuki underneath because Marquez was out in never never land with ZERO moment on his quest to crash Jorge.

Jorge should have done what Dovi does, just let the crash master Marquez go in too hot, lose drive, and then re-pass him underneath. Dovi has successfully done that move all season on Marquez. In fact, he often baits Marquez into it and like the dumb little clown Marquez is ... he takes the bait.

Jorge needs to attend Dovi's class on "how to avoid getting hit by Marquez and play him like the fool he is".

Can't wait for next year, it's gonna be comical with Marquez and Jorge as teammates.

As far as Rossi, 18th to 8th and ahead of his teammate ... will the weather ever cool down so that Yamaha can be somewhat competitive? Yamaha needs to steal some of Honda's robot tech, those gyro's are clearly making the bike look good even if the rider is an ..... ... but no one is on terms with Ducati power on exit.

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And he is better than Rossi.

robains said:

... but no one is on terms with Ducati power on exit.

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Another Smart Alec who has never heard all MotoGP bikes run on limited horsepower on first four gears. It can be anything, grip, weight distribution, aerodynamics, whatnot. But power it is not.

robains said:

Wow, seriously? Did you folks watch a different race?

It was classic Marquez fly into a corner and force a rider wide or off the track ... casualties this time were Jorge (who did the PC thing and pretended to makeup with Spazquez). It was such an idiotic move and that's exactly why he got passed by Dovi and a Suzuki underneath because Marquez was out in never never land with ZERO moment on his quest to crash Jorge.

Jorge should have done what Dovi does, just let the crash master Marquez go in too hot, lose drive, and then re-pass him underneath. Dovi has successfully done that move all season on Marquez. In fact, he often baits Marquez into it and like the dumb little clown Marquez is ... he takes the bait.

Jorge needs to attend Dovi's class on "how to avoid getting hit by Marquez and play him like the fool he is".

Can't wait for next year, it's gonna be comical with Marquez and Jorge as teammates.

As far as Rossi, 18th to 8th and ahead of his teammate ... will the weather ever cool down so that Yamaha can be somewhat competitive? Yamaha needs to steal some of Honda's robot tech, those gyro's are clearly making the bike look good even if the rider is an ..... ... but no one is on terms with Ducati power on exit.

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Pull your head out from your .... This is racing, not ball room dancing. Risk is one of the element that makes up a race. If this is too much for you, there is golf & ball room dancing. Also, be ready to have your feeling hurt some more. Marc will eclipse your idol rossi as world champion.

robains said:

Wow, seriously? Did you folks watch a different race?

It was classic Marquez fly into a corner and force a rider wide or off the track ... casualties this time were Jorge (who did the PC thing and pretended to makeup with Spazquez). It was such an idiotic move and that's exactly why he got passed by Dovi and a Suzuki underneath because Marquez was out in never never land with ZERO moment on his quest to crash Jorge.

Jorge should have done what Dovi does, just let the crash master Marquez go in too hot, lose drive, and then re-pass him underneath. Dovi has successfully done that move all season on Marquez. In fact, he often baits Marquez into it and like the dumb little clown Marquez is ... he takes the bait.

Jorge needs to attend Dovi's class on "how to avoid getting hit by Marquez and play him like the fool he is".

Can't wait for next year, it's gonna be comical with Marquez and Jorge as teammates.

As far as Rossi, 18th to 8th and ahead of his teammate ... will the weather ever cool down so that Yamaha can be somewhat competitive? Yamaha needs to steal some of Honda's robot tech, those gyro's are clearly making the bike look good even if the rider is an ..... ... but no one is on terms with Ducati power on exit.

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As far as I can see, Marquez is to Lorenzo what Rossi was 10 years ago. I think Lorenzo is a petulant ..... of minimal brain power, who loves blaming others for his failings (a bit like Rossi now). As for Marquez making him crash, thats horse ...., Marquez was nowhere near him.

evo9 said:

Pull your head out from your .... This is racing, not ball room dancing. Risk is one of the element that makes up a race. If this is too much for you, there is golf & ball room dancing. Also, be ready to have your feeling hurt some more. Marc will eclipse your idol rossi as world champion.

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And hopefully during Rossi's active time in MotoGP. I pray for that.

cucoloco said:

And hopefully during Rossi's active time in MotoGP. I pray for that.

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Amen to that for sure. That way him and his horde of sheep's can sit back and enjoy a nice slice of