2018 Gran Premio Movistar de Aragón Predictions + Race Chat

Keshav · Sep 25, 2018

RCV600RR said:
On one hand, Yamaha's poor results are because Rossi can't develop a bike. On the other hand, Yamaha's good results in the past had nothing to do with Rossi's development skills.

The logic here is amusing.

If we're intended to credit Rossi's mythological ability to give feedback turning the the bike into a winning machine, why would we then not also credit him with the downturn in it's development? Rossi only takes responsibility for the good developments? Where's the logic in that? That's some serious fan boi cherry-picking. Besides, it's not illogical to think his alleged genius at development can have decreased in tandem with his ability to win championships.

See, now I'm amused.

michaelm · Sep 25, 2018

RCV600RR said:
The "damm" ..... is correct. Yamaha, the company, has a $10 billion market cap. Their share price is 50% higher than it was in 2015 and almost triple what it was in 2012.

Money issues at the factory racing team are different to money issues at the head corporate level, which is something you clearly don't appreciate.

The point was made about the race team, which does seem to be chronically under-resourced, to have had trouble attracting sponsorship, etc, etc.

My whole point was that Honda are backing HRC and VW Audi seem to be backing Ducati Corse more than Yamaha, however financially sound the parent company may be (not nearly as big as Honda afaik and very definitely not as big as VW Audi) are backing Yamaha. Synn as is usual for him side tracked; I thought I was even more or less agreeing with him that Yamaha are being out-engineered at the moment rather than the current bike's slowness being down to Valentino. I was also somewhat aware that the way the Yamaha race team is organised and where they sit under the umbrella of Yamaha as a whole may be structurally problematic.

Barbedwirebikerr · Sep 25, 2018

I would hazard a guess to say you haven't surmised much wrong from current situations, as detrimental they may be, Rossi is hereby endemnified from any and all negative race performances either past nor future.

Barbedwirebikerr · Sep 25, 2018

.... Yamaha.
.... the motogp.
Forget history

Forza Vale.

synn · Sep 25, 2018

RCV600RR said:
The "damm" ..... is correct. Yamaha, the company, has a $10 billion market cap. Their share price is 50% higher than it was in 2015 and almost triple what it was in 2012.

Money issues at the factory racing team are different to money issues at the head corporate level, which is something you clearly don't appreciate.

I actually have that mouthbreather on ignore and I mean real ignore, not Piefuck ignore, so I totally missed that lol.

RCV600RR · Sep 25, 2018

michaelm said:
The point was made about the race team, which does seem to be chronically under-resourced, to have had trouble attracting sponsorship, etc, etc.

My whole point was that Honda are backing HRC and VW Audi seem to be backing Ducati Corse more than Yamaha, however financially sound the parent company may be (not nearly as big as Honda afaik and very definitely not as big as VW Audi) are backing Yamaha. Synn as is usual for him side tracked; I thought I was even more or less agreeing with him that Yamaha are being out-engineered at the moment rather than the current bike's slowness being down to Valentino. I was also somewhat aware that the way the Yamaha race team is organised and where they sit under the umbrella of Yamaha as a whole may be structurally problematic.

You're making the same point as him: that Yamaha's race team has some funding issues (but not Yamaha the company).

RCV600RR · Sep 25, 2018

Keshav said:
If we're intended to credit Rossi's mythological ability to give feedback turning the the bike into a winning machine,

False premise. I was clearly (re-read the post) referring to the members here that credit Yamaha for anything good about the M1 in the past, and blame Rossi for everything bad about the bike now.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence understands that each variable in the development cycle needs to be working well to produce a good motorcycle. You need (i) a rider that is able to give good feedback, (ii) a structure that can effectively relay that feedback to the engineers, (iii) engineers with sufficient competence to revise the areas of the bike that need revision to address the feedback, and (iv) sufficient funding to allow competent engineers to actually address solutions in a prompt and accurate fashion.

No-one who comes on here and claims to authoritatively know that the first item I listed above (i.e. Rossi) is the issue is interested in a serious discussion. It is of course possible, but it seems unlikely that they know more than Masao Furusawa and Jeremy Burgess about Rossi's feedback (to be clear, Furusawa said that Rossi was a development "genius"). The only real speculation that can be offered is that Rossi's feedback is no longer as good as it was eight years ago. This is possible, but it's not an intuitive conclusion. He is fast enough to be sitting in third place in the championship, and has accrued the most points since Marquez entered the championship (other than Marquez).

evo9 · Sep 25, 2018

RCV600RR said:
The "damm" ..... is correct. Yamaha, the company, has a $10 billion market cap. Their share price is 50% higher than it was in 2015 and almost triple what it was in 2012.

Money issues at the factory racing team are different to money issues at the head corporate level, which is something you clearly don't appreciate.

Since you and bottom feeder basement boy knows so much. Take away the few sponsors they have, then tell the investors and board of directors they want to go racing. If only you 2 have any knowledge of how the corporate world works......

evo9 · Sep 25, 2018

synn said:
I actually have that mouthbreather on ignore and I mean real ignore, not Piefuck ignore, so I totally missed that lol.

such a sad little boy you are. but being that you are an

Keshav · Sep 25, 2018

RCV600RR said:
False premise. I was clearly (re-read the post) referring to the members here that credit Yamaha for anything good about the M1 in the past, and blame Rossi for everything bad about the bike now.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence understands that each variable in the development cycle needs to be working well to produce a good motorcycle. You need (i) a rider that is able to give good feedback, (ii) a structure that can effectively relay that feedback to the engineers, (iii) engineers with sufficient competence to revise the areas of the bike that need revision to address the feedback, and (iv) sufficient funding to allow competent engineers to actually address solutions in a prompt and accurate fashion.

No-one who comes on here and claims to authoritatively know that the first item I listed above (i.e. Rossi) is the issue is interested in a serious discussion. It is of course possible, but it seems unlikely that they know more than Masao Furusawa and Jeremy Burgess about Rossi's feedback (to be clear, Furusawa said that Rossi was a development "genius"). The only real speculation that can be offered is that Rossi's feedback is no longer as good as it was eight years ago. This is possible, but it's not an intuitive conclusion. He is fast enough to be sitting in third place in the championship, and has accrued the most points since Marquez entered the championship (other than Marquez).

By your thinking the opinion that Rossi's "genius" for feedback is validated by Furasawa et al. But really, can you picture the same guys publicly saying their #1 marketing tool and Golden Child has of late lost his touch? Just because they haven't issued a press statement to that effect doesn't make it not so. Not exactly the kind of thing you advertise.

Personally - I think it's more up to complacency in R&D and budget issues, and that Rossi's value as a developer is mostly hype. I always believed that, realistically, Rossi, being talented and a proven winner pumped up morale at Yamaha when he jumped ship, that he likely inspired people to do better work.

p4p1 · Sep 25, 2018

How is it not relevant that during Rossi's 'development god' phase he had tyres built to suit him and the bike. Since the introduction of a control tyre he has failed twice while trying to help develop a bike to a control tyre.

It doesn't mean his input hasn't ever been good but I think a conclusion can be drawn that without a tyre built specifically to his needs his ability to help develop a bike is poor.

synn · Sep 25, 2018

Rossi wasn’t the only one to get “Special” tyres. All the top guys did.
And he won on flyaway races with no SNS too. Pretty sure he had no SNS in the 125s and 250s as well.

It’s hilarious how people keep grabbing the straws on this even after all these years.

michaelm · Sep 25, 2018

p4p1 said:
How is it not relevant that during Rossi's 'development god' phase he had tyres built to suit him and the bike. Since the introduction of a control tyre he has failed twice while trying to help develop a bike to a control tyre.

It doesn't mean his input hasn't ever been good but I think a conclusion can be drawn that without a tyre built specifically to his needs his ability to help develop a bike is poor.

He had the same advantages his predecessors as top gun rider such as Doohan had and arguably earned, and I didn’t/don’t have much problem with that. My problem was with his supporters complaining about other riders such as Hayden in 2006 and Stoner in 2007 having “advantages”, and detracting from the titles won by those riders on that basis.

I take Furusawa’s word on the quality of his feedback in his pomp. The problem is that he is no longer in his pomp, and it is basically impossible to develop a bike under the rules on which he can beat a 25 year old MM riding a factory Honda now he has decided to refrain from throwing his bike down the road. The best hope for beating him imo is a different riding style employed by a younger rider on tires which suit him but not MM as much, as was done by Vinales briefly last year and Lorenzo in the past. As far as Valentino goes he and MM have similar tire preferences anyway.

p4p1 · Sep 25, 2018

michaelm said:
He had the same advantages his predecessors as top gun rider such as Doohan had and arguably earned, and I didn’t/don’t have much problem with that. My problem was with his supporters complaining about other riders such as Hayden in 2006 and Stoner in 2007 having “advantages”, and detracting from the titles won by those riders on that basis.

I take Furusawa’s word on the quality of his feedback in his pomp. The problem is that he is no longer in his pomp, and it is basically impossible to develop a bike under the rules on which he can beat a 25 year old MM riding a factory Honda now he has decided to refrain from throwing his bike down the road. The best hope for beating him imo is a different riding style employed by a younger rider on tires which suit him but not MM as much, as was done by Vinales briefly last year and Lorenzo in the past. As far as Valentino goes he and MM have similar tire preferences anyway.

Again I've never had a problem with the advantages he had. As you said it was just the norm however unfair it was. My point is though that once they took away custom tyres and factories had to build a bike to a tyre, he stopped being feedback god and fell flat on his face twice.

pyeman · Sep 25, 2018

synn said:
I actually have that mouthbreather on ignore and I mean real ignore, not Piefuck ignore, so I totally missed that lol.

You totally miss most things,it's called being ........,good job you have your lapdog eh?.

povol · Sep 25, 2018

synn said:
Rossi wasn’t the only one to get “Special” tyres. All the top guys did.
And he won on flyaway races with no SNS too. Pretty sure he had no SNS in the 125s and 250s as well.

It’s hilarious how people keep grabbing the straws on this even after all these years.

There is no denying Rossi’s record when he and the entire field run the same tire. Coming up on 10 full racing years, Rossi has won 18races on the control tire and 6 of those came in the first season when he had a 1 year data headstart. Once the others got there head around the control tire, he has won 12 races in 9 years. In that 9 year period, Lorenzo won 30 plus races, Stoner won 20 plus races in 4 years, Pedrosa has won more , and Marquez has 40 plus and Dovi will surpass him maybe this year. Rossi has been cruising for points for a long time now and if you put much credence in his standings at the end of the year I guess you could say that strategy has served him pretty well. While other riders pushed the ragged edge trying to win titles, Rossi was content with riding safe trying to back into a title.

AJV80 · Sep 25, 2018

RCV600RR said:
Agreed.

The Ducati isn't bad at PI. Iannone showed us that. It's more that Dovi has never been good there.

Although, last year the Ducati’s all sucked at PI but I think that was to do with the tyres not geling. They seemed to have a crap time there last year, but I’d imagine the tyre issues would be sorted now. I felt really bad for Dovi at the time, being so close to a title and having that .... dealt to him when things really mattered.

synn · Sep 25, 2018

povol said:
There is no denying Rossi’s record when he and the entire field run the same tire. Coming up on 10 full racing years, Rossi has won 18races on the control tire and 6 of those came in the first season when he had a 1 year data headstart. Once the others got there head around the control tire, he has won 12 races in 9 years. In that 9 year period, Lorenzo won 30 plus races, Stoner won 20 plus races in 4 years, Pedrosa has won more , and Marquez has 40 plus and Dovi will surpass him maybe this year. Rossi has been cruising for points for a long time now and if you put much credence in his standings at the end of the year I guess you could say that strategy has served him pretty well. While other riders pushed the ragged edge trying to win titles, Rossi was content with riding safe trying to back into a title.

Marky Marc’s uncle Alzamora won a title with zero race wins.

Arrabbiata1 · Sep 25, 2018

synn said:
Marky Marc’s uncle Alzamora won a title with zero race wins.

Andrew Pitt did the same in World Supersport as I recall.

Theo · Sep 26, 2018

Quote off the front page of MotoGP.com
"Are we seeing the best of Rossi despite Yamaha's struggles?"
If this is his best, god knows what the worst is, as for the comments about his 8th position, well if 3 riders hadn't come off he'd have been 11th, how good is that!
15 years ago he was good regardless of the SNS, today he's a tired old man who rides so that the valeban can be their usual insulting selves.

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