*SPOILERS* Jerez Race Thread

[LittleEgg]

Three questions based on the bikes...



1, Was the 2007 ducati engine wise the fastest over its grid, compared to the current duc.......answer yes(or .... yea).



2, Did the 2007 ducati have the best tyres of that time, and an advantage over what rubber the current duc has over the current grid?......answer yes.



3, Did the 2007/2008 ducati have a problem with the front end like the 2010/2011 bikes seem to have.......answer no.



You can dance around all day boys, but these points remain......



Speed alone would have been enough imo because of the sheer amount available then(NOT now in 2011 as chunkie seems to think)......but even if you dont agree on that, its rather futile to pretend like all three points wouldnt make any difference.



The rubber alone was enough to elevate lorenzo into almost a title winner in 2009.



So keep talking about who would/wouldnt have won in 2007 its all sidestepping......these are three rather large factors that seperate the two ducati riders in 2007 and 2011.



Based on these points the only 2 safe assumtions are that with these extra's rossi would do better, how much better is down to individual opinion, i think substantially...Stoner without these extra's would have done worse, how much worse is again down to personal opinion, i think substantially.





With this in mind......the point is, its not fair to compare these two debut seasons as equals.

 

[stiefel]

Jesus it looks like he has got a puppet...

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=13865&view=findpost&p=275402

 

[Austin]

Strongest motor? Yes. Were the Bridgestones superior? Yes, but apart from the occasional track where the Michelins failed, it wasn't as bad as everyone's made it out to be. Let's keep in mind that there were some places where the 'Stones didn't work very well. Front end problems? Yes. The 800cc Ducati has always struggled for front end feel. Melandri flat out could not ride the thing with any sort of confidence. Capirossi went from title contender to taking a solitary win in the wet at Motegi, a historically pro-Bridgestone and pro-Capirossi circuit.



I agree the Ducati had a a power advantage in 2007, which was made much more managable by the end of the season/start of 2008. But it was still a .... chassis. A company like Ducati doesn't simply lose the plot in the chassis department overnight, even if you're of the opinion that Stoner couldn't develop an erection. It's always been bad.

 

[LittleEgg]

Strongest motor? Yes. Were the Bridgestones superior? Yes, but apart from the occasional track where the Michelins failed, it wasn't as bad as everyone's made it out to be. Let's keep in mind that there were some places where the 'Stones didn't work very well. Front end problems? Yes. The 800cc Ducati has always struggled for front end feel. Melandri flat out could not ride the thing with any sort of confidence. Capirossi went from title contender to taking a solitary win in the wet at Motegi, a historically pro-Bridgestone and pro-Capirossi circuit.



I agree the Ducati had a a power advantage in 2007, which was made much more managable by the end of the season/start of 2008. But it was still a .... chassis. A company like Ducati doesn't simply lose the plot in the chassis department overnight, even if you're of the opinion that Stoner couldn't develop an erection. It's always been bad.

Spot on...



1, Overall it was still a much better tyre.....and even if people argue it is only slightly better, then that slightly better almost made lorenzo champ in 2009.



2, Probably but to the extent of recently? The answer must be no, because stoner himself was at the forefront of the complaints about the front end last year.....and i dont remember him complaining about it in 2007/2008



3, Oh i agree.



So from this you have to say that there were some rather important things differentiating the two seasons.

 

[Austin]

Spot on...



1, It was still a better tyre, where are michelin now?



2, Probably but to the extent of recently? The answer must be no, because stoner himself was at the forefront of the complaints about the front end last year.



3, Oh i agree.



So from this you have to say that there were some rather important things differentiating the two seasons.

Overall, yeah, the Bridgestone was a better tire. I don't think there's any argument there. After all, Rossi made it a point to himself on the rubber for 2008. He didn't do that for the fun of it.



As far as debating whether or not the front end was better or worse in 2007 than 2011, I'm not going to get into that because it's nothing more than wild speculation. The only person who might have an idea is Preziosi, and even if you managed to get a word with him, I don't think he's going to reveal much on that front.



It's not a good motorcycle, it's never been. It just had a strong motor and in 2007, better fuel saving electronics to allow for that strong motor to stretch its legs. Stoner made that bike look good. Capirossi, Melandri, and Hayden are better indicators of what the bike is really capable of: a freak, one-off, win in the wet, and the occasional podium on the right day. But like Stoner, I'd be surprised if Rossi doesn't get the better of it eventually.

 

[stiefel]

Spot on...



1, Overall it was still a much better tyre.....and even if people argue it is only slightly better, then that slightly better almost made lorenzo champ in 2009.



2, Probably but to the extent of recently? The answer must be no, because stoner himself was at the forefront of the complaints about the front end last year.....and i dont remember him complaining about it in 2007/2008



3, Oh i agree.



So from this you have to say that there were some rather important things differentiating the two seasons.

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=13865&view=findpost&p=275402

 

[dwoodhouse]

I think so. He might have felt secure in Honda till Stoner arrived. But you need to have the talent to pick up as otherwise you will end up in gravel

I don't believe he has picked his game up any moreso than when chasing Lorenzo down before the unfortunate injury last year. The finish to the season could have been a cliffhanger if that injury didn't happen.

 

[dwoodhouse]

But like Stoner, I'd be surprised if Rossi doesn't get the better of it eventually.

And this is why I won't write him off. History has shown that Rossi has had lessons over his career and had to learn new things. Learning to ride the Yamaha was one, learning to win on the Bridgestones was another. These both required style adaptations by Rossi which he achieved in his own time. He now has to learn new skills on the Ducati which in the past only Stoner has had however I wouldn't write him off for the reason that he has been proven to be able to adapt when he has failed in the past.

 

[Austin]

And this is why I won't write him off. History has shown that Rossi has had lessons over his career and had to learn new things. Learning to ride the Yamaha was one, learning to win on the Bridgestones was another. These both required style adaptations by Rossi which he achieved in his own time. He now has to learn new skills on the Ducati which in the past only Stoner has had however I wouldn't write him off for the reason that he has been proven to be able to adapt when he has failed in the past.

Agreed, but for different reasons. No doubting the man's ability. However, in your examples, his every need was catered to. Yamaha bent over backwards for Rossi when he came over, and understandably so, he and JB gave them the blueprint for a world championship motorcycle. And Bridgestone had their own test teams in Ducati, Kawasaki, and Suzuki. Undoubtedly, they were listening very carefully to the feedback of Rossi. I'd be very surprised if Ducati do anything different to the way Yamaha and Bridgestone handled his changes.

 

[renjith_varma]

Ren, one variable (or anomoly) that you may have overlooked that would have an impact on your hypothesis.



Basically, to me a rider in first (or front later in a race) has every opportunity to throttle back and control the gap to the rider behind, but no rider behind would be prepared to accept a steady gap to the rider in front for the duration of the race.



That being that generally a race leader may well 'back down' the pace in order to maintain a 'gap' with which they are comfortable. It would be greatly unlikely that any rider whom is not in first would be happy maintaining a steady gap to the rider in front as they would be wanting to lessen that gap (ie. catch the rider).



In the scenario you mention it does not take into consideration the other variable of Pedrosa's shoulder, it's impact on his times nor it's impact on Stoner's times (due to the impact on Pedrosa's pace it is possible it made Stoner able to run a slower pace than he otherwise may have?



To me the same applies for any rider leading a race as it is they who have the position and ability to control the race pace and thus affect the pace of those behind as well as those racers strategies (something that in years past VR has done very well) whereas a trailing rider will not button back and accept a lesser position until absolutely all avenues to improve/catch the leading rider have been exhausted (use VR again as an example here - ...., I am starting to sound like a bopper

)













Gaz

Gaz,



I thought of your point while writing the earlier post, but then given that Stoner was leading both the races and the gap between him and the second placed rider (Rossi in 2007 and Lorenzo in 2011) was same (around 2-3 secs), I thought of removing that variable (I agree that Stoner may have backed down more in 2011 once he sensed that Pedro is fading compared to 2007 when Rossi tried hard in the last few laps to close down the gap and failed).

 

[dwoodhouse]

Agreed, but for different reasons. No doubting the man's ability. However, in your examples, his every need was catered to. Yamaha bent over backwards for Rossi when he came over, and understandably so, he and JB gave them the blueprint for a world championship motorcycle. And Bridgestone had their own

test teams in Ducati, Kawasaki, and Suzuki. Undoubtedly, they

were listening very carefully to the feedback of Rossi. I'd be very

surprised if Ducati do anything different to the way Yamaha and

Bridgestone handled his changes.

Yes fair point ... but ... in 2008 Rossi took 3 or 4 races to come to grips with the Bridgestone, when he did, it wasn't because of millions of dollars being thrown at the bike, it was because they realised that they had to lengthen the bike and get more weight to the back plus Rossi had to ride differently. While I can't ignore that yamaha made changes to the bike, it turned out to be simple ones (if there is such a thing) rather than expensive ones that led to the adaption to the Bridgestones. That is probably because the yamaha was a sweet handling bike already.

 

[Arrabbiata1]

Yes fair point ... but ... in 2008 Rossi took 3 or 4 races to come to grips with the Bridgestone, when he did, it wasn't because of millions of dollars being thrown at the bike, it was because they realised that they had to lengthen the bike and get more weight to the back plus Rossi had to ride differently. While I can't ignore that yamaha made changes to the bike, it turned out to be simple ones (if there is such a thing) rather than expensive ones that led to the adaption to the Bridgestones. That is probably because the yamaha was a sweet handling bike already.

Actually it was Alex Briggs that was chiefly responsible for the breakthrough, and Valentino personally name checked him for this in the post race press conference at the Shanghai GP. As regards changing rider style Rossi can adapt this on a whim - frequently mid race - which IMO is one of his most formidable talents.

 

[Jumkie]

That assumption that Stoner would have won Qatar on Honda 2007 would be incorrect due to the following

1. Stoner on Honda 2011 is not faster than Pedrosa by 5 secs. In qatar, till Pedorsa faded due to injury, he was snapping at Stoner's heels.

Ren, the question you must ask yourself is, who could beat Stoner on the same bike at Qatar. You want to convince me it would be Pedrosa? Hahahaha. When has Pedrosa won Qatar? When has Pedrosa won Qatar while Stoner has been in MotoGP? Stoner took Pedro's bike from day ....... one, and schooled him. Also, you're gonna need to do your homework, the lap times don't indicated Pedro suddenly faded, assuming that's all you believe, could have been fuel, tire management, etc. Stoner managed the gap as well. What we do know for a certainty is Stoner on the same bike as Pedro schooled him by a gap of 5+ secs. Would you like to readjust your assumption now?

2. Point 1. can be extrapolated to assume that Stoner wouldn't be 5 secs faster than Pedrosa on Honda 2007 also.

Stoner said he had more in reserve at Qatar 2011. That gap could have been 10 secs for all we know.

3. If he is not 5 secs faster than Pedrosa on a hypothetical Honda 2007, Rossi would have won.

Again, not only did Stoner say he had more in reserve, but I'd also say, Pedro conceded in 07 a larger gap. At that point he couldn't catch the leaders, something very common in race strategy.

If Stoner is so much faster than everybody else, why is Pedrosa able to match his pace on the same bike? I think once Pedrosa becomes fully fit, we would have answers to a lot of questions.

Wrong. Pedro did NOT match Stoner's pace. Matching somebody's PACE is different than matching somebody's LAP TIME. Even Barabra beat Rossi in qual, but he still couldn't match Rossi's PACE. Now you understand the difference? So its a FACT, that Pedro did NOT match Stoner's PACE. You can chalk it up to whatever you want, but that is the fact. You sound a bit like Talps here, as he qualified his assertion to Rossi beat Stoner had he been "fully fit".

I think if you put Stoner on a ducati (pre Rossi changes), he will destroy anyone. But if you put him on a Honda or Yamaha, he wouldn't be significantly faster than his alien team mates.

Agree, he would destroy anybody on a Ducati, that includes Rossi.



However, Uhm, this is what gets me. You guys see what is going on right in front of your face and still either cannot understand it or chose not to. Have you been paying attention the last 5 months buddy? Brotha, Stoner kicked Pedros and all others who had ridden a Honda since day ONE! How can you now say he wouldn't be significantly faster? Dude, that is by itself "significant".



Ok, two things, the question (debated just for fun, that is, for ..... and giggles) is: If Stoner rode the bike of either Rossi or Pedro, would he have beat them at Qatar? For me, the answer is hes. I'd put money on that. The second question is, would Stoner have beat them back in 07, either on a Honda or Yamaha. Well I don't think we even need to talk about Yamaha, he certainly would beat Rossi, do we agree? The only question is, would he have beet Rossi-Yamaha on a Honda.



Now check out what is gonna happen next, brace yourself. If you, like Rob & Talps, is obsessed with chalking up Stoner winning 07 Qatar because of a power/speed advantage (certainly this is what the two clowns base their entire argument on, even to the point of saying Rossi would have podiumed this year given such an advantage) then you must concede that the 2007 Honda had a power/speed advantage on the Yamaha of that year (308.8 to 302.4). So then, to answer the final question using this "advantage" logic that you boys seem so fond of, then certainly yes, Stoner would have won Qatar 07 on a Honda! (Oh Lord, how on earth will Rob & Talps weasel their way out of this? Easy, just like they weaseled out of Mr. Squigs now famous yes or no post. They will say, its now irrelevant. hahaha).





BTW, Rob has now adjusted his argument to include tires. If you've been following this thread, Rob made the assertion that it was up to power alone. In fact, he made this ridiculous hypothetical question to filter out all other parameters just to focus on power (with no real world application). Now he's saying the Bstones wer the key. We've been arguing Qatar 07 (I suppose for ..... and giggles) but the fact is 2/3 of the podium were on Michelin. Statistically, the dominant tire that round was Michelin. Second, the tire superiority has been debated. Michelin dominated some tracks in 07. Rob hasn't explained that anomaly since now he's added this to his argument.

 

[Tekniqs]

Actually it was Alex Briggs that was chiefly responsible for the breakthrough, and Valentino personally name checked him for this in the post race press conference at the Shanghai GP. As regards changing rider style Rossi can adapt this on a whim - frequently mid race - which IMO is one of his most formidable talents.

what did alex say? i'm genuinely interested, dude's great

 

[Arrabbiata1]

what did alex say? i'm genuinely interested, dude's great

I have no idea what he said in response, I simply remember Valentino thanking him post race at Shanghai and crediting him with the modifications that Woody alludes to. Ironically the extended swing arm setting as I recall was a leaf out of Ducatis book. Ducati always had the right philosophy from day one when they switched to Bridgestone in 2005 by engineering and rebuilding the bike around the tyres thus adapting the way the bike behaved to the new rubber. IMO teams like Suzuki were left behind because they almost literally tried to mould the tyres around the existing bike.



Anyway, because of this - it was logical to follow Ducati's lead when Rossi switched to Bridgestone..although Melandri had diametrically the opposite settings to Stoner as i recall.



I am 100% confident that once sufficient race data has been gleaned and Valentino's shoulder mends - (a variable which is clearly impeding his inputs on the bike), the front end woes will be sorted and the crew and rider (which are still the best in the paddock) will have a clear direction in which to steer development. Valentino will be competitive and win races before this season is through.



The current contentious issue which seems to upset and confound so many yellow acolytes around here is the fact that Stoner was so fast at the end of 2010 on a bike which is fundamentally the same, and the intimation that if he rode on it now in its current form he would still be instantly as fast - which I believe is the case.



Once Vale is able to fully lead the development of that bike in the direction he wants, it will become the most formidable weapon on the grid. In the hands of Stoner it was a raging demon that only he could control, a beast that he alone could tame......I would suggest in the hands of Rossi and his crew it is a sleeping giant.

 

[ScottP]

Agreed, but for different reasons. No doubting the man's ability. However, in your examples, his every need was catered to. Yamaha bent over backwards for Rossi when he came over, and understandably so, he and JB gave them the blueprint for a world championship motorcycle. And Bridgestone had their own test teams in Ducati, Kawasaki, and Suzuki. Undoubtedly, they were listening very carefully to the feedback of Rossi. I'd be very surprised if Ducati do anything different to the way Yamaha and Bridgestone handled his changes.

ROSSI IS A DUD THE BIGGEST FRAUD IN motogp!!! dahhhh dahhhh

motogp is and will be better off without HIM!!!

 

[Austin]

ROSSI IS A DUD THE BIGGEST FRAUD IN motogp!!! dahhhh dahhhh

motogp is and will be better off without HIM!!!

The first bit is laughable. The second bit is also not quite right. I admit he attracts a lot of people to the sport, some of which we would be better off without. But the amount of eyeballs he draws to the TV and the people he brings to the racetrack is very important to the series. The state of sponsorship is poor as it is in this economy, losing the sport's most marketable personality isn't going to make things any better.

 

[Arrabbiata1]

ROSSI IS A DUD THE BIGGEST FRAUD IN motogp!!! dahhhh dahhhh

motogp is and will be better off without HIM!!!

Talpa, Rob et al....I concede, there are times when your deployment of the term 'hater' is not only justified, but also frighteningly close to the truth.

 

[Gaz]

Talpa, Rob et al....I concede, there are times when your deployment of the term 'hater' is not only justified, but also frighteningly close to the truth.

Arrab, please do not concede as (IMO) hater does not describe Scotty in any way shape or form, actually I am not sure what does describe him ......................... but he does remind me a lot of CSCVAW for some weird reason











Gaz

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Arrab, please do not concede as (IMO) hater does not describe Scotty in any way shape or form, actually I am not sure what does describe him ......................... but he does remind me a lot of CSCVAW for some weird reason











Gaz

Scotty is someone who is not talented enough to fish with a rod and tackle so he uses a stick of dynamite.