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Dance .......
Actually your Master was Miss Jane's Squeeze
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Did you change your tune? I thought Rossi would have won on the 2007 Ducati. Surely he is as good as Stoner, right?
Edit: Talps, just out of curiosity, given equal treatment, who do you think would be the faster more successful rider on today's Ducati?
Joined Apr 2011
1K Posts | 87+
Pangea
Actually your Master was Miss Jane's Squeeze
as opposed to your right hand (unless you are left handed) to keep you company
I wasn't going to get further involved in this pointless discussion, reductio ad absurdum as I said , the logical end-point of your argument being that since rossi has won 9 world titles then he would win every race unless someone else has an advantage, which if true would mean there was little point to dorna/FIM actually conducting the races, and even less to us discussing them. Doubtless my stoner bias is again showing, but the reasonable default position to me would seem to be to credit whoever wins a race or championship, it being difficult for them to have done anything more than win.
We will never know whether rossi would have been as good on the 2007 ducati as stoner; I would at least agree that he would be more likely to have been as good than all of the other riders who didn't prove to be as good. He has been directly quoted as saying he doesn't like the engine characteristics/power handling of the current non-screamer ducati engine, and as has been noted earlier in the thread that stoner's method of riding the ducati is unique and difficult to replicate with loris capirossi saying straight out that he can't replicate it despite his 3 world championships, and added to the fact that he doesn't look much like winning on the current ducati it is at least conceivable that stoner might have been faster than him on a 2007 ducati. .
This particular opinion of yours I believe flies in the face of all evidence however; the problem with the bike as rossi has said is that it won't turn mid-corner, and I don't see how racecraft of however high an order can overcome this to enable even rossi to cover lines in a corner; it was this exact deficiency of the ducati that rossi exploited to win the laguna seca 2008 race. The yamaha was actually developed by him to suit his strengths, one of which is obviously raceceraft. As they say you pays your money and you takes your choice, and stoner since he has left ducati has actually said that the ducati had to be ridden in a certain way, basically from the front so that he could use his method to get through the corners unimpeded, not leaving him much room to ride tactically whether or not he had the capacity as a rider to do so.
Joined Apr 2011
1K Posts | 87+
Pangea
I have also had well enough, however I will finish with this, my implication was that having the advantage on the straights, Rossi would have had enough gap to protect his place (for the podium) and if it was taken due to a lack of turn, then he would have just blasted past on the straight again. Rossi showed this at Qatar this year when trying to fend off Spies, and managed to successfully do it for quite a while without the power advantage he would have had in 2007......seeing as Vr would have been battling with John Hopkins, Melandri maybe Edwards to get on the podium that day......IMO it not at all unreasonable
I don't see the need for the whole question of whether stoner would have won on a 2007 yamaha or honda, that he won on a 2007 ducati seeming to be the only relevant thing particularly at this remove in time. Picking qatar actually loads the dice, since this is a track stoner seems to particularly like, given that he has now in actuality won a 250 gp there, 4 motogps on two different bikes, and nearly won the 1st premier class gp he contested on a bike far from having an advantage particularly where tyres were concerned.
If rossi does eventually adapt to the current ducati without major design change then it would seem likely he would have done well on the 2007 ducati at qatar; although it would have been his first race the greater amount of testing then available may have helped. On the evidence of this year so far the possibility exists that the ducati is so idiosyncratic as to not be suited even to valentino, particularly as he says he has not yet replicated how stoner rode it, although his injury obviously also comes into it. The current front-end problems may be due to the 2007 bridgestones around which the bike was designed no longer being available though, as has been much discussed and as you have said.
So now Rossi is at a power disadvantage on the Ducati, while Spies is on the more powerful Yamaha? Is that what your trying to say. Rossi was fending off Stoner in 2007 on the more powerful Ducati & again this year was fending off Spies on the more powerful Yamaha. How the hell can anyone keep up with your reasoning.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I think Talps is trying to say Rossi was able to fend off Spies, despite the power of Ducati. Except for the fact he didnt fend of Spies, who passed him and the Yamaha (at least we can safely say Lorenzo's, which would make Talps point even more ridiculous since Jlo whipped Rossi coming 2nd) has a power deficit to the Ducati (pesky facts, but not important in the mind of Talps). I'll also add, Rossi almost binned it trying to fend off Spies. And i'll pile on, Spies passes with care so as not to disrupt the other rider. I suppose Spies could hav block passed Rossi, but he chose not to employ such desperate tactics. Unlike bowling ball Rossi.
Joined Feb 2008
2K Posts | 0+
home
Sorry but frankly i dont know what the hell you keep posting about.....you are like some crazy robot that keeps returning for an answer it already has.
Or a cat chasing its tail.
You don't know? That's ok, I'll help you. Jumkie posted a list of people who disagreed with you earlier in this threat:
Arabi
Michaelm
povol
Bharvey
Barry
Geonerd
Tom
cliche
Keshva
Jumkie
me.
Your response seemed to imply that you had some sort of categorization of these people, and belonging to these categories somehow invalidated their arguments.
Then I and Arrabbiata1 asked how you categorized us and why this makes our arguments meaningless.
After much crawling, deflecting and ignoring, you said I was a boner, yet failed to answer the how this affects my arguments. You did start telling me I made a made a fool of myself somehow and I kindly asked you explain why.
These are the things I want answered.
But hey, even though you claim you have no idea what I'm talking about, you are sure I have my answers already. That's great! Just direct me to the post where I can find them and I'' be happy.
The most recent example of Stoner beating a rider on their bike in his first go is Valencia test at the end of 2010 season where he beat Pedrosa, Dovi and Simoncelli.
So stacking up actual evidence as opposed to fantasy land dribbling, any reasonable person would safely assume that Stoner after winning, leading or getting pole every time he has raced at Qatar in the premier class and then beating every rider who had raced on the Honda for 1 or more seasons in his debut ride on said Honda would most likely have won the 2007 race on at least the Honda and given that he beat Capirossi on the Ducati that Capirossi had helped develop and had been riding since earlier the preceding season in his first ride on it as well it would not be a stretch on the imagination that he could have beating the Yamaha riders on the Yamaha the Suzuki riders on the Suzuki and the Kawasaki riders on the Kawasaki at Qatar in 2007.
In fact if I was asked who would I put money on to win a race at Qatar if bikes were randomly picked by all the riders I would put my money on Stoner EVERY time.
So stacking up actual evidence as opposed to fantasy land dribbling, any reasonable person would safely assume that Stoner after winning, leading or getting pole every time he has raced at Qatar in the premier class and then beating every rider who had raced on the Honda for 1 or more seasons in his debut ride on said Honda would most likely have won the 2007 race on at least the Honda and given that he beat Capirossi on the Ducati that Capirossi had helped develop and had been riding since earlier the preceding season in his first ride on it as well it would not be a stretch on the imagination that he could have beating the Yamaha riders on the Yamaha the Suzuki riders on the Suzuki and the Kawasaki riders on the Kawasaki at Qatar in 2007.
In fact if I was asked who would I put money on to win a race at Qatar if bikes were randomly picked by all the riders I would put my money on Stoner EVERY time.
That assumption that Stoner would have won Qatar on Honda 2007 would be incorrect due to the following
1. Stoner on Honda 2011 is not faster than Pedrosa by 5 secs. In qatar, till Pedorsa faded due to injury, he was snapping at Stoner's heels.
2. Point 1. can be extrapolated to assume that Stoner wouldn't be 5 secs faster than Pedrosa on Honda 2007 also.
3. If he is not 5 secs faster than Pedrosa on a hypothetical Honda 2007, Rossi would have won.
If Stoner is so much faster than everybody else, why is Pedrosa able to match his pace on the same bike? I think once Pedrosa becomes fully fit, we would have answers to a lot of questions.
I think if you put Stoner on a ducati (pre Rossi changes), he will destroy anyone. But if you put him on a Honda or Yamaha, he wouldn't be significantly faster than his alien team mates.
In Valenica test, Pedrosa was still recuperating from the collar bone injury he had 1 month back. I think given the injury, Pedrosa has matched Stoner on pace.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Umm as occurred when Stoner stepped onto the Ducati he went even faster after a few rounds. I think we wili see the same on the Honda.
Plus Renjith,you don't think Pedrosa has picked up his game immensely since Stoner came?
Plus Renjith,you don't think Pedrosa has picked up his game immensely since Stoner came?
I think so. He might have felt secure in Honda till Stoner arrived. But you need to have the talent to pick up as otherwise you will end up in gravel
Ren, one variable (or anomoly) that you may have overlooked that would have an impact on your hypothesis.
Basically, to me a rider in first (or front later in a race) has every opportunity to throttle back and control the gap to the rider behind, but no rider behind would be prepared to accept a steady gap to the rider in front for the duration of the race.
That being that generally a race leader may well 'back down' the pace in order to maintain a 'gap' with which they are comfortable. It would be greatly unlikely that any rider whom is not in first would be happy maintaining a steady gap to the rider in front as they would be wanting to lessen that gap (ie. catch the rider).
In the scenario you mention it does not take into consideration the other variable of Pedrosa's shoulder, it's impact on his times nor it's impact on Stoner's times (due to the impact on Pedrosa's pace it is possible it made Stoner able to run a slower pace than he otherwise may have?
To me the same applies for any rider leading a race as it is they who have the position and ability to control the race pace and thus affect the pace of those behind as well as those racers strategies (something that in years past VR has done very well) whereas a trailing rider will not button back and accept a lesser position until absolutely all avenues to improve/catch the leading rider have been exhausted (use VR again as an example here - ...., I am starting to sound like a bopper
Gaz
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Dance .......
Jesus it looks like he has got a puppet...
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