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*SPOILERS* Jerez Race Thread

You still winging after you already made a fool of yourself?
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So you have said several times now, yet every time I ask you to explain how I did so you fall silent. Help me out, explain how erred so that I may better myself.



Maybe then you could also answer question I originally put to you, instead of trying to weasel your way out. I mean, it was simple enough, right? Nothing to do with the relationship between engine power and competitiveness on Motogp bikes or something like that.
 
Same link again lol?.....i guess that means your done.
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The only thing you are the pupeteer of is those manboobs......Replying is what people do on forums so sorry if you were trying to be clever.
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Wait, really? Great! Maybe you should try it.
 
Wait, really? Great! Maybe you should try it.



Sorry but frankly i dont know what the hell you keep posting about
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.....you are like some crazy robot that keeps returning for an answer it already has.
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Or a cat chasing its tail.
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Ah! The irony.
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Greasing.
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Now who's a puppet?



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In fact forget i said that.........if calling someone on an internet forum your puppet isnt sad, then i really dont know what is. Its not the first time i have seen you do it either...........do you still live with your mum?



I'm certainly sensing a craving for control/power from you.
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In all seriousness though the whole puppet thing is probably one of the lamest things i have seen someone come out with online. Its just nauseatingly bad.
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Then again if it does it for you....
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The last three four pages of this thread should be ample evidence to anyone that debating Talpa and Rob is completely useless.



Mr. S, your post (page 34, #640 LINK) is one of the best refutes the detractor's thinking on the subject personified by Rob/Talpa. It was a pleasure to read for its perfect myth busting and relevance over a topic that has been debated for years. Yet, pages and pages later, it has failed to persuade said detractors into conceded their folly. The reason is NOT because the evidence doesn't support it, but because we are simply debating people incapable of following elementary logic and analysis. You certainly painted them into a corner, and notice how they simply disregarded it as irrelevant, even though it actually is exactly the crux of the point. They don't see it, and they are incapable of seeing it. It is completely useless debating these fools. We debate them because we see them type words, so we are tricked into thinking they are capable following simple logic, but I repeat, this is a fallacy! We are the wrong ones for thinking they (Talps, Rob, etal) can follow a debate to its logical conclusion.



This should be a warning to all those here attempting to debate Talps & Rob etal. Ask yourself this question, would you be so fervent in your post formulation if you knew you were debating a typical child or a mentally incapacitated person? I imagine not. Its the same thing I must remind myself when debating these two and others they represent. They've learned to type words, but without the necessary meaning and logic to have meaningful debate and dialogue. Its really that simple gentz. I will add though, that the value of reading the well formulated posts which have refuted the Stoner detractors here have been a pleasure to read. The value for me is the knowledge and evidence it compiles and the beauty of its logic. This I'm sure is the same for others who have read it and understand it.



For any more debate on the subject of power/speed advantage regarding Stoner vs the world while on a Ducati, I will refer to this LINK.



--A post which basically highlights the statements by two world champions who would be in the best and unique position to know, Capirossi (a Ducati rider and once teammate to Stoner) and Rossi, the standard (a Ducati rider currently on Stoner's bike) stating in no uncertain terms that it is in fact the ability and capacity of Casey Stoner, as a rider, and rider of the Ducati to account for its performance while stating they cannot duplicate as of yet this unique Stoner phenomena.



Right and directly after this completely irrelevant question, boners Squig and Gaz both said that Stoner would have won the race at Qatar on the 2007 Yamaha, the 2007 Honda and the 2007 Ducati without its power advantage.......when previously he had not won a single Motogp race
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Farck Me, and your calling us bias!!!!! This is worse than anything if read from a Rossi fan.......
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And your finding their posts a pleasure to read..... Well sorry mate but the thread of cred you had left is completely gone. I'm sure they would have said that Stoner would have won on the Suzuki, the Kwaka and the Illmor had I asked!!



This only proves that when Stoner fans post completely refutable and delusional argument, you don't find fault? You really can't see any flaws in the argument that Stoner would have most certainly Won the Qatar 2007 Motogp on the Michelin shod Yamaha/Honda and without his power advantage on the Duck......???? This is disturbing and very revealing as to the amount of disdain you have for logic when debating.....



This sums up your absolute warped POV, and calling Rossi fans on bias whilst not addressing this from Stoner fans is the ultimate (dare I say it yet again!) hypocrisy!!
 
some good points, however the Yamaha had serious rear traction woes in 2007 with michelins, (and still currently) which would have potentially hampered Stoners ability to pick it up under acceleration as fast as you think he could have.



Was wondering when tyres would come into it actually as I was saving the need for VR to adjust to the Bridgestones (well actually I forgot about it until after shutting down the pc).



You are correct that teh Yamaha did indeed have rear grip issues with the Michelins but you forget that these issues did not appear until later in the season and were not evident in any form at the Qatar race. Thus to me, given that teh Michelin were competitive in that race (as evidenced by the two Michelin runners in 2nd and 3rd) I will make the statement that teh tyres from Michelin cannot be used as a degrading factor when discussing the hypothetical situation for that race.



On the alternate side, one could attest that VR took a few races to become accustomed to the Bridgestones (once he had access) and as such his performance in the comparison would have been affected resulting in poorer results than he may have gotten in the same race later in the year.





The Honda was not good into turns in 2007 at all, particularly for Nicky who's issues were all too apparent back then. As Stoners strength is not corner entry this could have proved quite a challenge.....



I tend to disagree.



Yes teh Honda may not have been teh best cornering machine but Stoner is strong on corner entry and exit, but slow mid corner (based on recent comments from other riders). This to me would indicate that his 'point and squirt' approach would have been successful on that Honda given his experience with it the previous year and having access to better Michelins (working on the assumption that the comparison discussion is Factory rides).



Stoner has shown that he does not necessarily need a sweet handling bike to be successful so I do not feel that teh Honda would have been to difficult for him to master in that aspect.





Rossi is still the best developer out there, unfortunately in pre season 2006 he dropped the ball and spent too much time ....... around in cars. The absence of one furwasawa in 2006-07 was along with michelins corporate woes were probably the most crucial factors in them being caught out back then.



And some arrogance
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I do think arrogance was the bigger issue in them being caught as by the time the problems arose with Michelin one could say that the season was already on a large downhill slide momentum wise and it was to late to arrest it (both the downhill momentum of their team and the confidence momentunm of the Ducati team)









Gaz
 
Right and directly after this completely irrelevant question, boners Squig and Gaz both said that Stoner would have won the race at Qatar on the 2007 Yamaha, the 2007 Honda and the 2007 Ducati without its power advantage.......when previously he had not won a single Motogp race
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Farck Me, and your calling us bias!!!!! This is worse than anything if read from a Rossi fan.......
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And your finding their posts a pleasure to read..... Well sorry mate but the thread of cred you had left is completely gone. I'm sure they would have said that Stoner would have won on the Suzuki, the Kwaka and the Illmor had I asked!!



This only proves that when Stoner fans post completely refutable and delusional argument, you don't find fault? You really can't see any flaws in the argument that Stoner would have most certainly Won the Qatar 2007 Motogp on the Michelin shod Yamaha/Honda and without his power advantage on the Duck......???? This is disturbing and very revealing as to the amount of disdain you have for logic when debating.....



This sums up your absolute warped POV, and calling Rossi fans on bias whilst not addressing this from Stoner fans is the ultimate (dare I say it yet again!) hypocrisy!!



See and this is where you resort to your nonsensical self.



You asked and you received but because you do not get an answer that suits you, that makes those that responded 'boners' in your universe.



By the way Talps, ever heard of fishing ?











Gaz
 
Was wondering when tyres would come into it actually as I was saving the need for VR to adjust to the Bridgestones (well actually I forgot about it until after shutting down the pc).



You are correct that teh Yamaha did indeed have rear grip issues with the Michelins but you forget that these issues did not appear until later in the season and were not evident in any form at the Qatar race. Thus to me, given that teh Michelin were competitive in that race (as evidenced by the two Michelin runners in 2nd and 3rd) I will make the statement that teh tyres from Michelin cannot be used as a degrading factor when discussing the hypothetical situation for that race.



On the alternate side, one could attest that VR took a few races to become accustomed to the Bridgestones (once he had access) and as such his performance in the comparison would have been affected resulting in poorer results than he may have gotten in the same race later in the year.









I tend to disagree.



Yes teh Honda may not have been teh best cornering machine but Stoner is strong on corner entry and exit, but slow mid corner (based on recent comments from other riders). This to me would indicate that his 'point and squirt' approach would have been successful on that Honda given his experience with it the previous year and having access to better Michelins (working on the assumption that the comparison discussion is Factory rides).



Stoner has shown that he does not necessarily need a sweet handling bike to be successful so I do not feel that teh Honda would have been to difficult for him to master in that aspect.









I do think arrogance was the bigger issue in them being caught as by the time the problems arose with Michelin one could say that the season was already on a large downhill slide momentum wise and it was to late to arrest it (both the downhill momentum of their team and the confidence momentunm of the Ducati team)









Gaz



Well it took all of one race for VR to get on the podium in 08, after adjusting to the BS's. Hard to imagine with the extra grunt of the Duck in 2007 that he wouldn't have got a Podium due to this.....



The rear grip issues for Yamaha were actually apparent from the get go, and got progressively worse when they tried the pneumatic valve donk, and in 2006-albeit irrelevant. Colin had major problems in the race at Qatar after qualifying 3rd and having good pace. Most of this was blamed on the rear end issues, spinning up on corner exit. With Stoners style of very early throttle application this would have been a big problem. A problem which was well catered for at Ducati and BS with the brilliant new Marinelli Electronics and Rubber that didn't go off.



On the Honda issue, well Dani is very good at Corner entry, mid-corner and corner exit, yet he finished a distant 3rd. NTM the reigning world champ at the time, both had won more Motogp races than Stoner then.....and Nicky came in well down. That Stoner would have been considerably quicker on the 2007 Honda/Michies than these two to beat Rossi is, IMO, more than a little fanboyish.....
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The Honda in 2007 suffered from a weight distribution problem, a fundamental flaw with not enough over the rear, causing it to be very unstable under hard breaking and more often than not causing unwanted/planned stoppies. As it was designed around the midget this is not surprising. It did however have a stronger engine than the Yamaha, however he'd just spent a year with a Michelin-shod Honda and suffered lots problems with losing the front- hardly a recipe for winning on a bike with big-stopping problems.....



The Yamaha in 2007 suffered from a serious lack of outright power and rear traction issues, the latter no doubt due mainly to them being caught with their pants down from Marinelli. Its major benefits were agility and mid-corner speed, which you say isn't Stoner's strong point.



So essentially your saying that Casey would have been better than the best, and the best ever, across all of these machines and tyres, in this competition, back then before he'd even won a Motogp race......



I'm interested to hear how you think Stoner would win on the 2007 Suzuki, Kwaka and the Illmor then......
 
All this talk about top speed & power was boring about 5 races after Qatar 2007 & here we are still arguing 4 years later. Really.



One thing I haven't seen mentioned all this time which probably has the most impact on acceleration is gearing. Rob will dispute this but, Ducati may have geared the bike to take advantage on the straights as they were aware they were unable to outhandle the Yamaha. Setting the gearing up so that on the last corner they were right in the fat of the torque curve to maximise acceleration down the straight & getting a higher top speed. Yamaha on the other hand would have geared their bike to the back side of the track to maximise accelaration in the short shutes between corners. It all about playing to your strengths. Unless gearing is exactly the same on both bikes, power cannot be compared because gearing has such an impact on top speeds as well. 2 bikes with exactly the same power can have completely different lap times & top speeds due to gearing. As there is esentially unlimited combinations when taking into consideration gearbox ratios & sprokets, tuning the bike to strengths is what it is all about. Stoners strength is getting the bike up & accelerating quicker than anybody so they may gear the bike to suit his style, giving them a higher top speed than the Yamaha, irrelevent of HP.



With all the adjustability on these machines & taking into consideration tyres, torque, gearing, a riders ability etc, all this crap about Ducati having a 20HP advantage is just speculation in it's purest form. I see it as a completely pointless debate as there are far to many variables to even have an educated guess at HP levels but it has kept a few members arguing for years. Anyway, bopper & boners continue, this doesn't look like being put to bed any time soon.
 
Qatar on the 2007 Yamaha, the 2007 Honda and the 2007 Ducati without its power advantage.......

It’s very obvious you still don't understand the Stoner Qatar dynamic (naturally your blinded for obvious reasons). Stoner in his rookie year poled at Qatar on the LCR. The next year he won the race, and has every year since (excluding last year where he crashed from the lead, but as you know, nobody expected him to lose that year either, not even the man who won). Why do you think I would disagree with the assessment that Stoner would have won on the Honda or Yamaha in 2007? Why do you think this is so incredible? My opinion, Not only would he have won, but he most likely would not been handicapped by the .... handling Ducati letting Rossi pass him in a few laps. Rossi's Yamaha managed to stay with him because its such a great handling bike, and the Honda was not that far off. Rossi Yamaha finished 2+ secs, and Pedro Honda finished 8+ secs to Stoner. I contend that Stoner would have easily beat them on their bikes as he is not only faster, but he loves Qatar. Everybody including Rossi erroneously said "Qatar is a Ducati track." That is a direct quote from Rossi. The 9-time world champ, as you like to say (though I notice you only said 7 in another post) struggled miserably at Qatar. This, according to him, a "Ducati track." Before I go on, its would be amusing for me to ask you, was Rossi wrong? (Amusing because he obviously was, but I wonder if you'd admit fallibility.) Stoner crushed Rossi with a 16 sec lead on "a Ducati track". Imagine that Talps, a track that supposedly suits the very bike Rossi rode at Qatar. In fact, had Stoner still been on a Ducati and won, you would have been first in line to say, yeah, well Stoner won because Qatar is a Ducati track. That's right, that's the level of you overwhelming lack of GP understanding. We all know it’s NOT a Ducati track, but rather a 'Stoner track.' Most certainly, had Stoner been made to race Rossi on his own bike, or Pedro on his own bike (which is what you are saying) he would have been them every year running from 2007 to present. Yes, its completely a matter of opinion, just like your opinion that Stoner would not have beat them on a Honda/Yamaha in 07. But your opinion is wrong and mine is right. http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif
 
See and this is where you resort to your nonsensical self.



You asked and you received but because you do not get an answer that suits you, that makes those that responded 'boners' in your universe.



By the way Talps, ever heard of fishing ?











Gaz



Not really, I believe this is one of the most bias points to ever surface on this forum, and as you can see I find it disturbing that some are constantly being critical of Rossi fans, whilst more than equal displays of bias are being shown on the other side and going unchecked by these individuals. I'm happy to continue to point it out.
 
So essentially your saying that Casey would have been better than the best, and the best ever, across all of these machines and tyres, in this competition, back then before he'd even won a Motogp race......

I'm interested to hear how you think Stoner would win on the 2007 Suzuki, Kwaka and the Illmor then......



Nope, you are saying that - do not go trying to put words (or anything else in my mouth).



Now for you, to humour.



Suzuki - top 6 (Hopkins got a good result)

Kawasaki - 5 - 8

Illmor - pits with a mechanical on lap 12



I am interested to hear how you think VR would have gone on the Suzuki, Kawasaki, Illmor etc etc - you seem convinced that he would have the ability.









Gaz
 

Gearing? No no no, according to Rob all HP resides in a vacuum, therefore it accounts for greater acceleration (which he has no figures for, [sarcasm]). Its only the extra HP that accounts for anything [sarcasm]. But show him a speed chart and its simply kryptonite (its a fact). Its been discussed before. But Rob doesn't care about stuff like that, he will resort to (cue up gorilla voice): '+Horsepower + Rossi+ Ducati= podium). Please Coupe, don't complicate this debate, it will only serve to explode poor old Robby's head.
 
It’s very obvious you still don't understand the Stoner Qatar dynamic (naturally your blinded for obvious reasons). Stoner in his rookie year poled at Qatar on the LCR. The next year he won the race, and has every year since (excluding last year where he crashed from the lead, but as you know, nobody expected him to lose that year either, not even the man who won). Why do you think I would disagree with the assessment that Stoner would have won on the Honda or Yamaha in 2007? Why do you think this is so incredible? My opinion, Not only would he have won, but he most likely would not been handicapped by the .... handling Ducati letting Rossi pass him in a few laps. Rossi's Yamaha managed to stay with him because its such a great handling bike, and the Honda was not that far off. Rossi Yamaha finished 2+ secs, and Pedro Honda finished 8+ secs to Stoner. I contend that Stoner would have easily beat them on their bikes as he is not only faster, but he loves Qatar. Everybody including Rossi erroneously said "Qatar is a Ducati track." That is a direct quote from Rossi. The 9-time world champ, as you like to say (though I notice you only said 7 in another post) struggled miserably at Qatar. This, according to him, a "Ducati track." Before I go on, its would be amusing for me to ask you, was Rossi wrong? (Amusing because he obviously was, but I wonder if you'd admit fallibility.) Stoner crushed Rossi with a 16 sec lead on "a Ducati track". Imagine that Talps, a track that supposedly suits the very bike Rossi rode at Qatar. In fact, had Stoner still been on a Ducati and won, you would have been first in line to say, yeah, well Stoner won because Qatar is a Ducati track. That's right, that's the level of you overwhelming lack of GP understanding. We all know it’s NOT a Ducati track, but rather a 'Stoner track.' Most certainly, had Stoner been made to race Rossi on his own bike, or Pedro on his own bike (which is what you are saying) he would have been them every year running from 2007 to present. Yes, its completely a matter of opinion, just like your opinion that Stoner would not have beat them on a Honda/Yamaha in 07. But your opinion is wrong and mine is right. http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif





Wow, why do they even bother turning up to race then, if all conquering lord and Master Stoner could whip them all on any bike out there, it seems a silly to bother really....?



I'm wondering if this ........ you continue to post is originating still from your scars of 2006......



Every year running since 2007, on either of their bikes? Wow even the Boners haven't pushed it this far, how extreme can you take this idiocy, I know



I'm sure you believe Stoner would also have whipped Mick Doohan on his NSR500 in 1997, not only that-he would have beaten him on both the 4 and the twin versions that year. He would have also beaten Mick on Beatties Suzuki that year, and Wayne Rainey on his YZR500 in 1992, or Kevin Schwantz on his RGV500



I know.... Stoner would have definitely beaten Ago and Hailwood at the TT on the MV and the Honda.



No doubt you'll disagree as these hypothesis don't involve your obsession





denigrating Rossi......
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Not really, I believe this is one of the most bias points to ever surface on this forum, and as you can see I find it disturbing that some are constantly being critical of Rossi fans, whilst more than equal displays of bias are being shown on the other side and going unchecked by these individuals. I'm happy to continue to point it out.



So you resortr to being critical of another riders fans by displaying your own bias and this is acceptable how?





And by the way, I will not resort to the 'boner/nuthugger' ........ to try to demean the worth of another's posting, but yes I will resort to nonsensical diatribe etc (before you point it out) as much of what gets posted is (IMO) nonsensical diatribe that is off at tangents that simply cannot be measured (from all sides).



We all have a bias somewhere, some show far greater than others, some are not bias at all but reasoned debate. IMO (and it is an opinion here) to invalidate someone's opinion that differs from yours by dismissing it as you and others do ....................... that is a nonsensical bias. Why?



Well many peiople here from all sides make good and valid points, .... those often called 'boners' or 'flossies' etc and it leads to some interesting thought provoking discussion, but when an opinion does not meet that of certain forum players they resort to the old 'boner' argument, is that not nonsensical?



And for the record - if you think this is one of the most bias points please explain the total dismissal of Hayden's achievement as a fluke?



The constant berating of all that Stoner has achieved for any multitude of reasons (from the bike that rode itself, to the electronics that were friom nasa etc). Please also explain the total bias shown by people regarding Stoner's health issues.



Please explain why in conversation people will say that Lorenzo won teh title on Rossi's bike, or why he only won the title because Rossi was injured.



These are bias that have been perpetuated to far greater levels than many of the 'pro-stoner' bias of which you constantly cry foul and one must be understanding that not all 'anti Rossi' (as you see them) posts are universally bias led. I mean, do those Rossi fans that post anti-Rossi comments show a bias against Rossi when they post?







Talps, you and I have been here befroe and no doubt bored people shitless with our essays debating the finer points of the word 'motogp' or whatever, let us not do it again.



You continue to worship at you alter of Rossi and I will continue to worship at my alter of old school racing where I see fault all round.













Gaz
 
Nope, you are saying that - do not go trying to put words (or anything else in my mouth).









Gaz



Well actually no you are, Hayden and Pedders were the best on the Hondas, Rossi was (arguably) the best ever on the Yamaha. These three riders went into 2007 as the top three-as in the best.



You have stated that Stoner would have beaten all of them on their respective machines at Qatar in 2007?
 
I'm sure you believe Stoner would also have whipped Mick Doohan on his NSR500 in 1997, not only that-he would have beaten him on both the 4 and the twin versions that year. He would have also beaten Mick on Beatties Suzuki that year, and Wayne Rainey on his YZR500 in 1992, or Kevin Schwantz on his RGV500



Have been fortunate enough to scrutineer one of the twins a few times (Lucky JA).



Of course this allows a close up look at these things and man, they are a serious work of art, simple. Such sheer beauty to see one of these, never mind hear it and see it ridden - they are awesome.



Have seen a 4 Cyclinder as well but not gotten close enough as it was fully faired, but naked the twin is seriously sweeeeeet









Gaz
 
Wow, why do they even bother turning up to race then, if all conquering lord and Master Stoner could whip them all on any bike out there, it seems a silly to bother really....?



I'm wondering if this ........ you continue to post is originating still from your scars of 2006......



Every year running since 2007, on either of their bikes? Wow even the Boners haven't pushed it this far, how extreme can you take this idiocy, I know



I'm sure you believe Stoner would also have whipped Mick Doohan on his NSR500 in 1997, not only that-he would have beaten him on both the 4 and the twin versions that year. He would have also beaten Mick on Beatties Suzuki that year, and Wayne Rainey on his YZR500 in 1992, or Kevin Schwantz on his RGV500



I know.... Stoner would have definitely beaten Ago and Hailwood at the TT on the MV and the Honda.



No doubt you'll disagree as these hypothesis don't involve your obsession





denigrating Rossi......
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You sound like your head is about to explode. Calm down buddy. Take a deep breath. We need you around for comedic value.



BTW, have you responded to this? LINK





[] Yes

[] No
 

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