*SPOILERS* Jerez Race Thread

[renjith_varma]

Ren, the question you must ask yourself is, who could beat Stoner on the same bike at Qatar. You want to convince me it would be Pedrosa? Hahahaha. When has Pedrosa won Qatar? When has Pedrosa won Qatar while Stoner has been in MotoGP? Stoner took Pedro's bike from day ....... one, and schooled him. Also, you're gonna need to do your homework, the lap times don't indicated Pedro suddenly faded, assuming that's all you believe, could have been fuel, tire management, etc. Stoner managed the gap as well. What we do know for a certainty is Stoner on the same bike as Pedro schooled him by a gap of 5+ secs. Would you like to readjust your assumption now?

I was objecting to your saying that Stoner on a Honda would have won Qatar 2007 against Rossi on Yamaha. I am not going into who could beat Stoner on the same bike. I have done my homework and from the lap charts, it is clear that Pedrosa was in the high 1.55's in first half and then faded to low 1.56s and then to high 1.56s.

He was matching Stoner's laptime in the first half of the race and was comfortably lapping in 1.55s. Even Stoner said lapping at 1.55.3s was a risky business and decided to bring it down to high 1.55s. Reading from all this, I am not very sure Stoner could have gone below 1.55.3s which Pedrosa matched in the first half easily.

Stoner said he had more in reserve at Qatar 2011. That gap could have been 10 secs for all we know.

Yes. But if you look at the lap charts, he slowed down by 0.2-0.3 secs in the last 5 laps. Which will amount for at the max 1-1.5 secs. To pull 10 secs on Pedrosa, Stoner should be running 1.54s. Which he himslef said wasn't going to happen. So you can extend his gap to Dani from 5 to 6seconds.

Again, not only did Stoner say he had more in reserve, but I'd also say, Pedro conceded in 07 a larger gap. At that point he couldn't catch the leaders, something very common in race strategy.

That again is not correct as per the 2007 qatar lap charts. He has been running in mid 1.57s through out the race even on his last lap. He had the same pace in the first half of 207 race when he had Rossi is in sight. I don't believe he slowed down at all.

Wrong. Pedro did NOT match Stoner's pace. Matching somebody's PACE is different than matching somebody's LAP TIME. Even Barabra beat Rossi in qual, but he still couldn't match Rossi's PACE.

He was in front of Stoner at halfway point and was matching the laptimes set by Stoner lap by lap till lap 13/22 when his injury started to slow him down. Tell me in how many laps did Barbera match Rossi's pace? The answer is 1 which was the starting lap. I would say that was not a good analogy.

And TBH I don't care whom I sound like as I am expressing what I feel and not what someone else wants to hear.

Well I don't think we even need to talk about Yamaha, he certainly would beat Rossi, do we agree?

I am not so sure of that. But it is your opinion and I respect that (But treat it as just that - an opinon).

If you, like Rob & Talps, is obsessed with chalking up Stoner winning 07 Qatar because of a power/speed advantage

I never said that. All I am saying is that I am not yet convinced Stoner will continue to have Ducatiesque level of performance advantage on his team mates. He may be marginally faster than Pedrosa. But not much.

But I am calling BS on many of you guys saying he would have won the championship in 2007 on a Honda. That is a gross exaggeration!!



It is ironical when especially you who fight against the Rossi worshippers, indulge in idolizing another rider.

 

[ScottP]

The first bit is laughable. The second bit is also not quite right. I admit he attracts a lot of people to the sport, some of which we would be better off without. But the amount of eyeballs he draws to the TV and the people he brings to the racetrack is very important to the series. The state of sponsorship is poor as it is in this economy, losing the sport's most marketable personality isn't going to make things any better.

WHY??? Do we need the people that ROSSI attracted or attracts to motogp??? I don’t think WE DO!!! Motogp should be about racing and the true grit of elbow grease ...not the poofy antics that ROSSI or LORENZO goes on with...STONER is the what motogp should be about and ROSSI is just been this joker this clown that the officials took on and eventually he’s going to spite their faces like hes beginning to do so now!!! I’ve been following the 750’s the 500’s and now the motogp 800’s and now they’re going to change it to 1000’s since the 70’s mate I've seen some great champions that never ever carried on like or had to do what ROSSI does they had pure skill and technique to get them through every and any situation be it on track or off track and I specifically talk about the great late Barry Sheen who is and was motorcycle racing NOT ROSSI he wouldn’t even come as high as Barry’s shoe soles!!!

 

[michaelm]

But I am calling BS on many of you guys saying he would have won the championship in 2007 on a Honda. That is a gross exaggeration!!

Why not? Pedrosa finished second on it, and whoever was on the ducati instead of stoner, which would not have been rossi anyway, may well not have been able to ride it like everyone else so far except stoner

.

 

[Arrabbiata1]

WHY??? Do we need the people that ROSSI attracted or attracts to motogp??? I don’t think WE DO!!! Motogp should be about racing and the true grit of elbow grease ...not the poofy antics that ROSSI or LORENZO goes on with...STONER is the what motogp should be about and ROSSI is just been this joker this clown that the officials took on and eventually he’s going to spite their faces like hes beginning to do so now!!! I’ve been following the 750’s the 500’s and now the motogp 800’s and now they’re going to change it to 1000’s since the 70’s mate I've seen some great champions that never ever carried on like or had to do what ROSSI does they had pure skill and technique to get them through every and any situation be it on track or off track and I specifically talk about the great late Barry Sheen who is and was motorcycle racing NOT ROSSI he wouldn’t even come as high as Barry’s shoe soles!!!

So evidently 2002 - 2006 was of no interest to you then.



As fondly as we remember Bazza, the only thing he surpassed Valentino on imo was charisma. Both had a natural ability to manipulate the media, furthermore I would argue that Barry courted far more controversy both on and off the track during his career than Valentino ever has. Also if you are going to namecheck the great man - at least get the spelling right you dipshit.

 

[renjith_varma]

Why not? Pedrosa finished second on it, and whoever was on the ducati instead of stoner, which would not have been rossi anyway, may well not have been able to ride it like everyone else so far except stoner

.

Hmmm interesting and logic point ...May be Rossi wouldn't have been too desperate ( I think he had 2 falls in 2007) as Stoner's lead in Honda might be smaller than what he had in Ducati.

I think in 2007 Rossi was focussing too much on Stoner that it allowed Pedrosa to creep through

 

[dwoodhouse]

Actually it was Alex Briggs that was chiefly responsible for the breakthrough, and Valentino personally name checked him for this in the post race press conference at the Shanghai GP. As regards changing rider style Rossi can adapt this on a whim - frequently mid race - which IMO is one of his most formidable talents.

Thanks Arab, I was crediting Rossi's team rather than Rossi on his own (hence the use of "they") but I didn't know that it was Alex Briggs' idea.

 

[dwoodhouse]

Scotty is someone who is not talented enough to fish with a rod and tackle so he uses a stick of dynamite.

It worked for Homer Simpson.

 

[dwoodhouse]

Hmmm interesting and logic point ...May be Rossi wouldn't have been too desperate ( I think he had 2 falls in 2007) as Stoner's lead in Honda might be smaller than what he had in Ducati.

I think in 2007 Rossi was focussing too much on Stoner that it allowed Pedrosa to creep through

Yes the book reads as it does. Pedrosa also finished ahead of Rossi in 07 so therefore I believe that if Stoner was on a Honda, he may very well still have won.





Now, what it Rossi, Stoner and Pedrosa were on a Honda in that year. .... that would have been a good season.

 

[renjith_varma]

Yes the book reads as it does. Pedrosa also finished ahead of Rossi in 07 so therefore I believe that if Stoner was on a Honda, he may very well still have won.





Now, what it Rossi, Stoner and Pedrosa were on a Honda in that year. .... that would have been a good season.

I agree. Logically I take back what I said about Stoner wouldn't have won championship on Honda. Now back to Qatar 2007

 

[michaelm]

I agree. Logically I take back what I said about Stoner wouldn't have won championship on Honda. Now back to Qatar 2007

I have some fun sometimes applying arguments to rossi previously used in regard to stoner.



I actually think that rossi probably would have beaten dani in 2007 if he had focused on it. I think rossi is more interested in race wins than whether he finishes 2nd or 3rd in a championship, and at some stages in his career has even given winning an individual race priority over finishing first in a championship.

 

[Talpa]

Pedders also finished second in 2007 by a very slim margin, gifted the place through rossi's second engine failure of the season. Rossi also suffered a faulty tyre (admission from Michelin) at turkey. This basically equalled 3 non scoring rounds, same as stoner in 09

I guess the irony of all this is really 2008, when Yamaha improved their power( still not to duck specs) and the tyre

advantage was negated. Races like laguna cemented popular view.



Seeing as many consider it necessary to include recent testing in the argument on 2007, and the extremes/ total irrelevance of riders comment on style, however bias, then....

Considering 2008 it's very interesting to relive a lot of opinion on who would do what on what bike in 2007.......

 

[michaelm]

Pedders also finished second in 2007 by a very slim margin, gifted the place through rossi's second engine failure of the season. Rossi also suffered a faulty tyre (admission from Michelin) at turkey. This basically equalled 3 non scoring rounds, same as stoner in 09

I guess the irony of all this is really 2008, when Yamaha improved their power( still not to duck specs) and the tyre

advantage was negated. Races like laguna cemented popular view.



Seeing as many consider it necessary to include recent testing in the argument on 2007, and the extremes/ total irrelevance of riders comment on style, however bias, then....

Considering 2008 it's very interesting to relive a lot of opinion on who would do what on what bike in 2007.......

I continue to fail to see the relevance of any of this. It is premier class racing , you ride the bike your team builds, help them improve it if you can, and can do little more than win .



Some direct quotes from good ol' mick in this fortnight's AMCN concerning the jerez imbroglio, just for you.



You might like this one.

"Rossi didn't do anything wrong, other than crash".



Not so sure about this one.

"" Doohan rejected any suggestion that Stoner was disrepectful to Rossi when the Aussie said to the nine-time world champion, "Obviously your ambition outweighed your talent" .

"Well, you could argue that Rossi was a little ambitious. That's generally what happens when you crash. You tried something that didn't work," Doohan explained. "It probably would've been nicer if Valentino had taken his helmet off when he went to apologise-regardless whether the press were there or not-to at least make it look a bit more sincere." "

 

[renjith_varma]

I think rossi is more intereested in race wins than whether he finishes 2nd or 3rd in a championship, and at some stages in his career has even given winning an individual race priority over finsihing first in a championship. .

I think he was in the past. Now given the level of competition, it seems Lorenzo's Mr.Consistency approach is the best way to tackle a championship

 

[dwoodhouse]

That was Rossi in 09. He gave up on pushing for a win when the championship was getting close. It was a definite change in approach by Rossi and probably showed the respect he had for his competition as compared with earlier in his career, say pre 2007.

 

[Mr Squiggle]

Pedders also finished second in 2007 by a very slim margin, gifted the place through rossi's second engine failure of the season. Rossi also suffered a faulty tyre (admission from Michelin) at turkey. This basically equalled 3 non scoring rounds, same as stoner in 09

You never fail to make an excuse for Rossi not winning....



Much like Valentino did himself with his recent testimony about the Jerez 2011 incident as reported on GPOne. After apologising for his mistake and accepting full responsibility for his actions he then went on to say that Casey had every right to be upset for being taken out by him, as incidents like this can decide a world championship....his reasoning was that he had actually lost the world title in 2006 due to a crash earlier in the season involving Tony Elias.



My recollection of his result that year is somewhat different..... from memory Valentino was in fact leading the championship heading into the last race of the year at Valencia and only had to finish in front of Nicky Hayden to secure the title.....and we all know what happened at that race dont we - he lost the front end and crashed - HIS OWN FAULT....this is yet another example of historical revisionism at it finest! Something you have been a past master of around here

 

[Jumkie]

You never fail to make an excuse for Rossi not winning....



Much like Valentino did himself with his recent testimony about the Jerez 2011 incident as reported on GPOne. After apologising for his mistake and accepting full responsibility for his actions he then went on to say that Casey had every right to be upset for being taken out by him, as incidents like this can decide a world championship....his reasoning was that he had actually lost the world title in 2006 due to a crash earlier in the season involving Tony Elias.



My recollection of his result that year is somewhat different..... from memory Valentino was in fact leading the championship heading into the last race of the year at Valencia and only had to finish in front of Nicky Hayden to secure the title.....and we all know what happened at that race dont we - he lost the front end and crashed - HIS OWN FAULT....this is yet another example of historical revisionism at it finest! Something you have been a past master of around here

Actually, Rossi went into Valencia with a points lead. So he didn't have to finished 'in front' but rather several places 'behind' Nicky. Considering that Rossi started that race from pole, it seemed an easy task in relative terms and an almost impossible predicament for Hayden. The season basically came down to a one race shoot out. We can effectively eliminate what ever happened before that, even the torpedo by Nicky's own 'teammate' the race before, as what Rossi alluded to above, and put Nicky at a points deficit going into the season finale. The rest is history, as they say. But as we learned the year or two after, according to a some, the numbers did lie, even though they didn't.

Wow, what a thread this has become. Rehashed all of 06-present. So when is Estoril again?

 

[Mr Squiggle]

Actually, Rossi went into Valencia with a points lead. So he didn't have to finished 'in front' but rather several places 'behind' Nicky.

Revisionist! hehe...yes you are absolutely correct

Considering that Rossi started that race from pole, it seemed an easy task in relative terms and an almost impossible predicament for Hayden. The season basically came down to a one race shoot out. We can effectively eliminate what ever happened before that, even the torpedo by Nicky's own 'teammate' the race before, as what Rossi alluded to above, and put Nicky at a points deficit going into the season finale. The rest is history, as they say. But as we learned the year or two after, according to a some, the numbers did lie, even though they didn't.

Exactly....you can always come up with a million woulda, shoulda, couldas.....as Talpa so frequently likes to do to support his own arguments