Mugello 2023

#22 · Jun 12, 2023

Great post, and in answer to your question, I guess it depends.

Carmelo out leverged MSMA when Honda and Yamaha were the big guns in Ducati's favour, At a time when the concern was Ducati would leave the championship. To me, the potential of Yamaha and Honda doing the same now, especially in light of Suzuki's withdrawal, is very real.

Ducati would kick and scream, but they aren't going anywhere. Plus, they've had their benefits of the concession system and like. As you also noted, the issue at present is the sport is at a danger of becoming WSBK in the early 2000's...I.e. the Ducati cup.

I agree with ditching ride height and aero. It's not exactly like either is relevant to their road markets and as F1 has shown, Aero is one of the deepest moneypits you can find. THey'd be better off allowing more engines or manufacturer ECU's again imo.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 12, 2023

#22 said:
The problem is, there are 4 crap bikes (factory Honda and Yamaha) to fill in that case, with those 4 riders wanting to get onto Ducati, Aprilia and KTM. Unless the rookies like Acosta fill those spots, I don;t see where they can go short of Aprilia/KTM dumping some under contract riders, or starting a new team like Husqvarna.

Personally, I think Aprilia are stupid if they don't drop one of their riders for Marquez if the chance came up. Miller has been a boost for KTM but likewise, I'd happily drop Pol and put him on a factory GasGas if if meant having a Marquez/Binder lineup. With the limited seats and how competitive GP is now, I really dont see why teams are holding onto relics from the past like Pol, Vinales and Aleix. I respect their skills, but other riders would get more out of that machinery.

Ideally? I'd like to see Fabio on the Aprila, and Marc on a factory KTM.

They better get on with getting out because from what I understand Pedro Acosta will be on a ktm and Tony Arbolino will be on a ducati next year. Which they both deserve. I have heard the odd man out at ducati could be Zarco.

#22 · Jun 12, 2023

Yep I think we are all hearing:

Pramac:
Martin
Bezzechi

Gresini
Marquez (A)
Arbolino

VR46
Marini
Morbidelli

Gas Gas
Pol
Acosta

I'm not sure Pol will stay around, he is a big TBD at the moment and like Ducati, KTM have an embarrassment of riches. I wouldnt want to let go of Augusto if I were them either.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 12, 2023

#22 said:
Yep I think we are all hearing:

Pramac:
Martin
Bezzechi

Gresini
Marquez (A)
Arbolino

VR46
Marini
Morbidelli

Gas Gas
Pol
Acosta

I'm not sure Pol will stay around, he is a big TBD at the moment and like Ducati, KTM have an embarrassment of riches. I wouldnt want to let go of Augusto if I were them either.

I think Miller should be demoted to Gasgas for Pedro. I believe Pedro has the most potential since Marc. They need to give him a factory ride.

#22 · Jun 12, 2023

Yep, Miller wouldnt be happy about it but that's life. If KTM have the chance at Acosta or Marquez, they have to ditch Pol. End of.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 12, 2023

#22 said:
Yep, Miller wouldnt be happy about it but that's life. If KTM have the chance at Acosta or Marquez, they have to ditch Pol. End of.

One thing I'll say about Miller is that he is a team player. Although I'm not sure that is a positive thing in a sport where your teammate is your biggest rival but he has always had the teams best interests in mind. I think given the option of gasgas or out' he'd understand.

TeamKoolGreen · Jun 12, 2023

The Moto GP Mac podcast guys figure Sachsenring will be Marquez best chance to win. I'm thinking of putting a bet on it.

You'd think by now Marc would realize finishing the race in the top 5 is better than crashing out. Maybe no kamikaze passes for 3rd off the racing line next week ?

mikesbytes · Jun 12, 2023

One of Ducati's strengths is that it gathers and shares data between all of Ducati riders. Honda on the other hand seems to get less information from its Satellite team.

Mir appears to be taking the same path that Lorenzo took in his year at Honda which was marred by injury
There's a limit to how much a rider can ride around the problems of a bike and M Marquez has found it
If Mir ends up retiring then Rin's should be promoted to the factory team, he has shown he can ride the bike at selected tracks.
Miller is hard on the rear tyre and this cost him his Ducati seat. Doesn't seemed to of changed at KTM
Zarco at risk of loosing his seat despite being 5th in the championship. The problem is that Ducati needs a high profile seat or two to stop riders being poached to other teams. If that does happen then I'd like to see Zarco on the WSBK Ducati
I'm not sure what to make of Martin
Binder is the main threat in the world championship to Ducati
Bezzechi has done the max that can be expected from last years bike in a satellite team, from here he will probably slip down the championship standings but that's not a negative at all
Morbidelli can beat Quartararo but only when Quartararo does badly
Marini doing really well but its not as noticeable as he's tending to win the B-group each race

#22 · Jun 13, 2023

TeamKoolGreen said:
The Moto GP Mac podcast guys figure Sachsenring will be Marquez best chance to win. I'm thinking of putting a bet on it.

You'd think by now Marc would realize finishing the race in the top 5 is better than crashing out. Maybe no kamikaze passes for 3rd off the racing line next week ?

I think the issue is the as yet undiagnosed random front lockups the Honda is having. It caused his crash in Portugal and caused his crash in Mugello. He also said it happened at T10 in the early laps. When I say 'it caused' I'm not saying the bike caused him to crash like Rossi fans used to do, more that the reason for him losing control seems to be the unpredictable nature of the bike.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 13, 2023

TeamKoolGreen said:
The Moto GP Mac podcast guys figure Sachsenring will be Marquez best chance to win. I'm thinking of putting a bet on it.

You'd think by now Marc would realize finishing the race in the top 5 is better than crashing out. Maybe no kamikaze passes for 3rd off the racing line next week ?

No he will not settle for a top 5. He has no reason too. He isn't in the title hunt and its not Marcs mentality anyway. It will be either win it or bin it for the rest of the season.

TeamKoolGreen · Jun 13, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
No he will not settle for a top 5. He has no reason too. He isn't in the title hunt and its not Marcs mentality anyway. It will be either win it or bin it for the rest of the season.

Yes. But if he doesn't qualify near the top or get the hole shot, he's just not going to be able to pass the top Ducs. Hanging around and waiting for one of them to go wide or crash and getting a podium should be considered a win in a situation like Sunday.

In order to actually win, he has to do that in qualifying and at the start.

Im not sure how payouts work in Moto GP. Crashing out of top 5 finishes must be costing them in payouts too

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 13, 2023

TeamKoolGreen said:
Yes. But if he doesn't qualify near the top or get the hole shot, he's just not going to be able to pass the top Ducs. Hanging around and waiting for one of them to go wide or crash and getting a podium should be considered a win in a situation like Sunday.

In order to actually win, he has to do that in qualifying and at the start.

Im not sure how payouts work in Moto GP. Crashing out of top 5 finishes must be costing them in payouts too

Marc doesn't care about bonuses he cares about wins. Sachsenring is a unique track and Marc is the king of it. He will be on the front 2 rows unless he is unable to put down a lap in q2 for whatever reason. He will be there fighting for the win. The bigger question is will his bike be able to do the same.

DavidSim · Jun 13, 2023

Gaz said:
The Ducati Cup is alive and well with two divisions.

One called WSBK and the second called MotoGP

Cannot wait for the Ducati Moto3 cup to start

And all that is stated while fully acknowledging that at least they are investing in the sport by building, developing and making available machinery for so many riders

Without Ducati there would be no MotoGP as we know it !

For Ducati it is a passion, that is the difference !

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 13, 2023

DavidSim said:
Without wheels there would be no MotoGP as we know it !

Fixed that for you.

Sure it would and it would be more entertaining without them. Credit where credit is due. Ducati built a better bike than everyone else but to say there would be no motogp as we know it without them is crazy. They have won one championship since 2007 they hardly are necessary for motogp to be what it is.

#22 · Jun 13, 2023

TeamKoolGreen said:
Yes. But if he doesn't qualify near the top or get the hole shot, he's just not going to be able to pass the top Ducs. Hanging around and waiting for one of them to go wide or crash and getting a podium should be considered a win in a situation like Sunday.

In order to actually win, he has to do that in qualifying and at the start.

He's the only rider to have qualified on the front row in every race he's competed in this season. At Sacsenring? I'd bet good money on him getting pole. Don't forget it is a tight circuit that nullifies a lot of the Ducati advantages.

TeamKoolGreen said:
Im not sure how payouts work in Moto GP. Crashing out of top 5 finishes must be costing them in payouts too

Of course, but to push bike development forward you have to push the bike. Better to crash out of the top 5 than the be finishing outside the top 10.

MdubSTYLIE said:
Fixed that for you.

Sure it would and it would be more entertaining without them. Credit where credit is due. Ducati built a better bike than everyone else but to say there would be no motogp as we know it without them is crazy. They have won one championship since 2007 they hardly are necessary for motogp to be what it is.

Agreed. Ducati could quit at any point just like Suzuki did and the championship would still roll on.

Keshav · Jun 13, 2023

DavidSim said:
Without Ducati there would be no MotoGP as we know it !

For Ducati it is a passion, that is the difference !

But is MotoGp “as we know it” a good thing? A lot of folks don’t think so. The way they skirt around the rules to create bikes with overmany trick gadgets that smooth over the deficiencies of some riders and weaponize what seems like unlimited spending to do things like fund so many satellite teams for an outrageous advantage rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I remember when it was announced that all teams would have to use the Magnetic Marelli electronics, thinking, given all the other compensations they were receiving, was like putting a hat on a hat. I mean, you can’t blame them for wanting real success after so many years of just missing the mark, but they way they’re going at it now, it almost feels like a revenge spree. Encouraging innovation while simultaneously trying to affect relative parity in a way that is not painfully artificial is a tough road to hoe. We saw this scenario before with Honda for a while and everybody got sick of seeing only Honda on the podium. I guess its just history repeating itself.

TeamKoolGreen · Jun 13, 2023

DavidSim said:
Without Ducati there would be no MotoGP as we know it !

For Ducati it is a passion, that is the difference !

Ducati deserves to dominate for awhile. There has to be a changing of the guard sometimes. Japan dominated long enough. I just wish Aprilia could live up to it too. The Aprilia looks the most impressive. If it could only compete as good as it looks.

#22 · Jun 13, 2023

Keshav said:
But is MotoGp “as we know it” a good thing? A lot of folks don’t think so. The way they skirt around the rules to create bikes with overmany trick gadgets that smooth over the deficiencies of some riders and weaponize what seems like unlimited spending to do things like fund so many satellite teams for an outrageous advantage rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

Well said. The unfortunate side effect of tightening the rules down so much (spec ECU, 4 cylinders, 1000cc limited stroke, which predicates your bore to a fixed 81mm) means that they are going to then gain an advantage with the more gimmicky things like aero and ride height devices, NONE of which have any use or relevance to road use.

Not sure where Ducati get most of their money from now, given Phillip Morris is no longer involved.

Keshav said:
I remember when it was announced that all teams would have to use the Magnetic Marelli electronics, thinking, given all the other compensations they were receiving, was like putting a hat on a hat. I mean, you can’t blame them for wanting real success after so many years of just missing the mark, but they way they’re going at it now, it almost feels like a revenge spree. Encouraging innovation while simultaneously trying to affect relative parity in a way that is not painfully artificial is a tough road to hoe. We saw this scenario before with Honda for a while and everybody got sick of seeing only Honda on the podium. I guess its just history repeating itself.

It's the early 2010's all over again. Remember when only factory Honda or Yamaha riders saw the podium and the top 6 were stretched out but nearly a minute?

TeamKoolGreen said:
Ducati deserves to dominate for awhile. There has to be a changing of the guard sometimes. Japan dominated long enough. I just wish Aprilia could live up to it too. The Aprilia looks the most impressive. If it could only compete as good as it looks.

No one deserves anything. I think Aprilia's biggest problem at the moment are the riders. Stick Fabio, Marc or similar on that bike and it would be leading the championship.

TeamKoolGreen · Jun 13, 2023

#22 said:
.

No one deserves anything. I think Aprilia's biggest problem at the moment are the riders. Stick Fabio, Marc or similar on that bike and it would be leading the championship.

The Aprilia bikes look rigid and unforgiving. Especially compared to the KTMs. They couldn't even get the bikes set up for the rain earlier in that rain race. Riders , bike , setup. It looks like they are mediocre at everything at the moment. But it sure looks good. Imo

MichaelBolton · Jun 13, 2023

Aprilia is in that point in which KTM found themselves after 2020, when you lose the concessions and can't freely develop your bike so the bike hits a plateau. This is the hardest moment for any factory, and unlike Ducati and KTM, they don't have near limitless pockets. But I agree their factory rider pairing is pretty mediocre, despite being able of scoring the good odd result from time to time.

Mugello 2023

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