61 Kancerous posts in this thread alone. 14 likes and 1 quoted reply (which was an F U.) Those are not the numbers of a person with friends. Maybe everyone is afraid to like or reply because they fear the Kancer is contagious
MotoGP: 2015 Round 17 - Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)
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Oh sorry Jums .............. I should have added allegedly shouldn't I.
Given that Livio Suppo commented as have others , that Race Direction have alluded to Marquez slowing down and concentrating on Valentino I will take that as sufficient evidence
Personally you will also see that in numerous places I have outright stated that if MM wants to play, then he can play as quite simply there are no written rules that state he is not allowed to do so.
Yes they should have called the rest of the season off after Valentino was in the lead after the first race.
Arrabbiata1
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See that Honda's still a piece of .... then.
(Thought I'd say this time given that the obligatory race thread post got lost in the excitement).
(Thought I'd say this time given that the obligatory race thread post got lost in the excitement).
Jums (I kid not), in one place there is a a guy trying to raise 500k Euro to pay Ianonne to take Lorenzo out because ‘that would be fair’
Serious, kid not.
That is beyond sad
But this championship hasn’t been decided by Race Direction either
Rossi remains on 1 oF 4 bikes that are clearly somewhat superior to other non-Factory bikes (of course his talent helps)
May well be right Curve, but the fact remains that only one of the two was adjudged to have broken the written rules of the sport and thus only that one could be punished against those rules.
However, from the comments of Race Direction it would seem clear that they do not absolve Marquez and feel that he did play a role in culpability, but have no rules against which to punish him but they did go public and thus ‘telegraph’ that they will be watching.
Shhhh, don’t give my sideline business away
Let us assume for a moment that you are right (not saying you are not) .
So MM was toying with Rossi, and according to Rossi it was all to help Lorenzo. Would you agree with that?
If so, how does passing Lorenzo and thus costing him 5 points in the championship help Lorenzo?
I will happily accede that Marquez may have been playing with Rossi, but that does not mean that he was doing so to help Lorenzo as has or had been claimed and nor does it break any rules.
Your thoughts?
Rules and the spirit of the rules are two distinctly different things in sport, business and life
MotoGP is both sport and business but we seem surprised but when people push the rules or ethics, maybe even bend them, we all seems to shout blue murder
Point is, (and Jums you may want to look here) that as I, you and others have said in this thread ………… the evidence is circumstantial with some maybe anecdotal as you (us) simply do not have access to Marquez’s mind in order to know with assurity that he was doing what he was alleged deliberately.
As someone had mentioned a few pages back, all season he has been seen to overshoot/run wide in corners (interestingly and from memory only, seemingly more so in right handers) and so running wide does not mean that he was slowing.
MM and ALL Honda riders have all season complained of front end woes and I will challenge any rider our there to push hard to the absolute edge on a bike with which one is not comfortable, it is a damn scarey feeling (even Rossi could not do it on the Ducati)
The issue is that if enough circumstantial evidence exists people will draw a guilty conclusion and given the two protagonists there is immense passion on both sides (perhaps one could argue much more irrational passion on one side)
The fact that this only surfaced as an allegation after PI tells me all that I need to know in terms of the driver for the accusation as if this was a genuine concern there would have been rumblings well before now.
Would that not be race fixing ????
I mean, MM is being accused of it so surely, making a path through the pack easier has to be the same thing but (like you I suspect) I have no doubt that no Rossi fans will complain of that action
A very young Sid James but yes (do not want to consider Uccio as looking like Barbara Windsor)
Carry on …………..
And therein lay the issue that people suggesting that riders should get out of a championship contenders way (and a questions asked around 3 volumes back)
If we look at this year for example, why only after PI has the accusations begun to fly about 'not getting in the way of the championship leader' or the more often repeated 'MM is not in line fort he championship so he should not be riding to impact it'
My argument is that a championship starts at the first round and finishes at the last round. Any rules MUST apply for all rounds and as such, VR (in this case) should be treated no differently now than he would have been at Qatar.
If riders want to race or ride then they can do it and short of swerving all over the road like a drunken bogan on a Saturday night it is up to the rider to be good enough and fast enough to get past, it is not for Race Control or a pack of people with an Internet Petition fetish to make it easier for you.
Just to add (to my post count bahaha)
Maybe they should just cancel Valencia, for errrmmm reasons
Not having a go either Mike as you would know
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"Sufficient evidence "
Well Gaz, your standard for guilt is extremely low, practically speaking, why even cite support for it. Just go with, it's a hunch. (Sorry, I haven't had time to read all the posts, it pisses 3 pages between my visits).
There is absolutely no evidence Marc deliberately toyed with Rossi. Its all based on FAITH, like a ....... religion, they believe he is guilty DESPITE the facts. Its exactly like religious extremism. Some here (see the crazy post i highlighted) say Rossi should take out Lorenzo to get back at Marc. How? Perhaps with a grenade vest? ....... INSANE. i watched a Spanish video where Marquez reportedly went into tears trying to explain his side after Rossi calls him a ........ It happened in the Race Direction's interrogation chamber. Rossi comes in, Marc is sitting meekly, VR starts berating him with name calling. In a room decidedly filled with Rossi's good old boy club. Marc was not acting like a man who deliberately ...... with Rossi. On the other hand, Rossi has been behaving like a man who's paranoia turned into an act of violence. Its a classic cult!
This has got to be one if the greatest coups on the power of suggestion. Rossi accused Marc of wrong doing and 98% of GP fandom are sure of it now. "Sufficient evidence". Unbelievable.
I called ........ on your premise (passions are raging ) that Marc had cheated HRC by not racing for the best position he was capable. You made the assumption that he had not raced his best based on zero evidence. What then makes your indictment of Marc any more credible (or incredible) than Rossi's? I read Race Direction's convoluted report. You use it, as did J4rn0, to conclude Marc was guilty. Yet Mike Webb based his finding on a hunch, purely by faith. No evidence to speak of except that he felt Marc was lying and Rossi was telling the truth.
Edit: wait minute, did you mean had you said " allegedly" that you were calling ........ on that premise too?
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Arrabbiata1
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I was tempted to 'like' this...but
Where do I say he cheated HRC?
See, you are reading to much again ..............
And nor did I make the allegation ............ others have,. What I did was ask as to what HRC would have thought as I suspect that if they felt that he was out of line then he would have been hauled as he was not racing with the HRC interests in hand (some could argue he was indeed doing so as HRC would not want VR to win the title -- see another conspiracy theory)
Absolutely correct on Mike Webb, but as Race Direction if we are to believe his finding on VR why do we then question them on MM.
Personally I DO think that MM was playing with Rossi but I do NOT think it because of Lorenzo and nor to impact the championship ............. but purely because they do not like the other, much in the way VR played with Gibbers
Now as for evidence I would say that if there were any it would be in telemetry, that which we shall never get to see and it would be in throttle percentages, brake applications, suspension travel and the very points of the circuit where it is alleged to have occurred. Telemetry gathers this information (and more) and by doing lap on lap comparisons from Race and practice (allowances for practice) that same telemetry would easily identify any untoward behaviours or outlandish variations.
You can bet that Race Direction would have access to this information and it may have been referenced (may have being the operative word) with regards to the allegations against MM and could also have played a component in any decision against VR (ie. did he roll off the throttle through that turn greater than his normal deviation)
There may be 'no hard and conclusive evidence' in the public domain but there would have been sufficient irrefutable evidence available via the telemetry that we shall never get to see.
VR's allegations from PI would have been based on his telemetry as he would have had to adjust (ie. brake earlier, lighter throttle application etc) to the actions oft he other riders (if they were to genuinely occur)
Now, given that I do NOT work for HRC, DORNA, FIM or Yamaha I do not have access to the level of evidence that would determine beyond doubt the allegations so like you, I am left with circumstantial evidence which I find interesting but not conclusive (there are trends that can be followed).
Just saw your edit.
The allegedly should have been inserted when asking the question - ie. I wonder what HRC would think were Marquez not concentrating on his race but instead riding to impede Ross as has been alleged in some quarters (hell, even race control 'allude' to the allegation)
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My 2 cents...
Marc's primary goal at PI was to prevent Rossi from racing with Lorenzo. To Marc's surprise, Lorenzo wasn't as strong as he has been in the past and never pulled a big gap. Marc could see Lorenzo was still within striking distance the entire time he was toying with Rossi. Once he was satisfied he had prevented Rossi from catching Lorenzo, he decided he would show Lorenzo he is faster and ran him down for the victory. See, I don't think Marc and Jorge are working together, just that Marc prefers Jorge to win the title. So Marc beating Jorge was just to let him know "I'm still faster than you, don't forget that). It's all EGO.
Jum, just on a rational level, you can't be both a self-proclaimed Rossi/Bopper hater, and also be the voice of reason and objectivity. It just doesn't make sense.
Everyone:
We're at 100+ pages, here. Nothing has been solved, and the conversation hasn't really progressed much from when the incident first happened.
Rossi has been punished. The severity (which I guess it what you're still outraged about) doesn't matter. Rossi IS NOT winning the championship. It's not happening, no way shape or form. When Rossi qualifies in 7th he can't win, let alone starting from the back of the grid. Let's be serious here.
Rossi is a complete piece of ...., waste of a Yamaha. He wanted an incident with Saint Marquez, and he got one. Now he's facing the consequences. What else do you want, a lifetime ban? I think Rossi will take care of that himself.
Lorenzo is the 2015 Champ. Game/Set/Match.
Everyone:
We're at 100+ pages, here. Nothing has been solved, and the conversation hasn't really progressed much from when the incident first happened.
Rossi has been punished. The severity (which I guess it what you're still outraged about) doesn't matter. Rossi IS NOT winning the championship. It's not happening, no way shape or form. When Rossi qualifies in 7th he can't win, let alone starting from the back of the grid. Let's be serious here.
Rossi is a complete piece of ...., waste of a Yamaha. He wanted an incident with Saint Marquez, and he got one. Now he's facing the consequences. What else do you want, a lifetime ban? I think Rossi will take care of that himself.
Lorenzo is the 2015 Champ. Game/Set/Match.
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Well ignoring the fact that Rossi has won starting from 7th (even 10th), it's likely that Rossi wont have to win in Valencia to win the title. You really think Lorenzo is going to takeoff at the maximum and risk a mistake that'll put him down? You think he's going to battle with Dani, Marc, and Iannone... 3 fast riders who have nothing to lose and can go all out in the season finale? We also can't ignore the possibility of RAIN.
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So what in your opinion would constitute legitimate "evidence?" You expecting CSI Sepang to show up and take DNA samples and fingerprints?
You do recognize the concept of Empirical Evidence? If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and smells like a duck, chances are good ... (unless one is totally obtuse) one has to admit, it's a duck. Even in proper courts of law - judges hand down decisions that are based on common sense and analogical substantiation.
I really think that with Rossi starting from dead last, Lorenzo doesn't have to takeoff at the maximum and risk mistake.
Lorenzo is the 2015 Champ. I don't understand what all the debate is over.
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Race Insurrection has done their part to keep them all here. I think Rossi will still win the title. I don't believe Marc was toying with Rossi. Marquez will do everything to win Valencia. Its practically a forgone conclusion for me. The best Lorenzo can hope for is 2nd. Rossi third still wins the title. If Pedrosa carries his form it will be Honda 1-2. There is no guarantee that Lorenzo will not experience problems and arrive in 3rd, but that is insufficient if Rossi arrives a likely 4th. This was a calculated scheme by Race Dornaection! Its why the didn't call for a ride through or a DQ immediately during the race! They supposedly waited to get Rossi's version before they took action, as if it wasn't abundantly obvious. Many racers have said in a normal world Rossi gets at minimum ride through penalty if not worse. Not even starting from the pit lane. Rossi will be past 10 riders by turn 2-3. Laverty will move out of his was as will others who may fear recriminations. The way the Yellow Insane Army has conducted themselves since the incident should give any person plenty of pause. Its a classic cult mentally and some riders could honestly fear for their careers if not their vary lives. There are boppers calling to crash out Lorenzo to get back at Marc: insane. Others saying Rossi should pay Iannone 5 million to take out Lorenzo. Petitions to pressure Dorna to right this "injustice ": insane. A campaign to harass riders via Twitter to call for them to pull over: insane. Even some of the riders have taken VRs side, Lavery, Edwards, while other's have commented but without the balls to call Rossi a ...... Rossi has threatened to quit and not take the grid at Valencia. Rossi has turned the sport on its head. He has quite literally hijacked it.
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So you agree with me that Lorenzo probably wont take off at the max, yet at the same time claim what I sad was hyperbole.
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