MotoGP 2014 Round 6 - Mugello, Italy

povol said:

Probably because he was leading Marquez starting the final lap.

Wrong, Lorenzo was leading when they started the final lap. Lorenzo's setup is ultimately responsible for his speed, or lack thereof. There were Yamahas that were faster than Marquez's Honda in trap speed. Like i said before, Marquez's bike was only 10th fastest on the day and Lorenzo's 11th.Top speed is a very small part of a wi nning bike. One more thing and listen carefully. I did not say they were equal, i said they were not as far apart as some let on.

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At this point, I honestly can not remember if MM was leading the race, and didn't DVR the race so I can't check. I thought MM went into the final lap with the lead, and held it. I'll take your word for it and admit I was wrong. Please forgive my error. With that said, the speed difference coming down the front straight was still obvious. And Lorenzo indicated the exact same thing. Also, every other point I made was valid. As far as Lorenzo's ability to setup a bike, I guess I don't understand why that would be in question. Sure, Top Speed is indeed only one part of winning. In my initial post, what I said was that on a day that the turning seemed somewhat equal, the Straightaway speed made the difference.

hawkdriver said:

So if anyone can turn the throttle what is MM doing to get the power down. He's getting the bike stood up before anyone else and there was only one other guy who could do it. He has incredible bike control and if the grid was full of Hondas he would still be kicking their ..... until they could ride like him and CS. The only reason he didn't look so dominant today is because the track, long corners. If the bikes position determines it's throttle out put then you have to manipulate the bike for it to give you power. Simple to say, but only two guys have been able to do it. It's the rider not the bike.

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MM's ability to jockey the bike around isn't in question. The part in question is when the bike straight up, he's in full tuck, still, and he's blowing by Lorenzo. Yeah, the part you and I can do.

I know you guys are denying what you see, but look at the comments by writers, who get paid to cover this ...., and see what they say. And when you get done that, see what the riders, who actually ride the machines say.

Everyone seems to be hell bent to prove MM's greatness. I AM OPENLY SAYING, HE'S GREAT! Again, repeat, HE'S GREAT. Why is it so hard for you guys to say the rules changes, and Honda's money to develop a bike in the current environment may be playing a part in making an already GREAT rider that much more dominant. I'm truly hoping he wins every race, and takes every pole this season in the process. Don't be confused, we're routing for the same thing guys.

ReddiWhip said:

Thanks Pov, I wasn't sure what drafting was until you laid this out for me . I'm kidding man, but please tell me then why JL didn't fly right by MM heading into the final lap... I mean, he was behind MM headed down the straight, right? Your assertion all season is that the bikes are equal. That's simply not the case. Marquez would catch Lorenzo 1/4 of the way down the straight. When Lorenzo was behind, he would catch him by the end, or not at all. Simply put, there's grip and drive coming out of a corner creating acceleration, there's top end speed, and there's stability under intense braking at the end of the straight. The Honda holds an advantage in all three phases.

MM said he changed his gear setup which gave him a top end advantage. You can never add to the top end without sacrificing acceleration. That means the Honda acceleration advantage is so great, they could sacrifice some, to gain a top end advantage too. And somehow in your mind, the bikes are equal? The personal Marc Marquez advantage which you're trying to prove, isn't something he would add by rolling the throttle back. With Anti-Wheelie, fuel mapping, and traction control, ANYONE can twist the throttle back, ANYONE. The Honda Machine is superior, sorry man.

Lorenzo even said himself that he's down on top end power, and that's why he lost the race, which echoed my exact analysis post race. Lorenzo said, "We need a little more top speed, because on the straight ever little 10th (of a second) I take on the corner I lose it on the straight. With probably three or four kilometers I can do more for this position." [source: cyclenews] I guess you know better than Lorenzo in this case.

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Dont question Professor Povol
He has singlehandedly debunked 99% of the worlds climatologists.
Loronzo showed one the most precise and gritty performances, I have ever seen. I'm in complete awe of what he did today. He never had a chance and tried his best to keep more powerful Honda at bay. The Honda once again drove past him at will and Marquez was obviously sandbagging until the last lap.

Dr Povol has had Lorenzo hooked up to a xanax IV, locked In a rubber room, choking on his drool all year. That was a foolish assessment. The guys the most mentally tough rider I've ever seen

My favorite part of the race was seeing Arabbaita 1 so many times. It's been far too long since we've seen that

birdman;371667[B said:

]It always amuses me to see the same people who complained incessantly about how electronics were making the difference with rear wheel hop etc etc ]now revising their own history based on Marquez. No more boring race write ups. No more boycott threats. Hawk Pov and Krop the Three Marquez Amigos.

Sure Marquez is the best rider. I would speculate if he was on the Yamaha and Lorenzo on the Honda the results would be the same..................or would they? Marquez six straight on the Yam? Maybe, maybe not. With one litre less fuel they are more slaves to the electronics than ever. The Honda allows the throttle heavy technique you describe above, not sure if the Yam does as well. Marquez may adapt to that, in fact I think like all great riders he would find a way, but it sure would be interesting to see.

The observation I have from this race is simple mathematics. If we witness those swooping lines especially on the last corner Lorenzo actually rode a longer distance race than Marquez. In a non-fuel limited formula it wouldnt matter too much, but at present if we add up those precious few meters on every corner every lap it possibly adds up to quite a bit. I dont think Lorenzo's style is favoured at all at present with this formula.

And who came up with the fuel limited formula? Was it Yamaha? No. So in an attempt to explain, Marquez's greatness does not preclude Honda cheating this series with locked engines and ever diminishing fuel limits now does it. Pov and Krop wont get it, you might.

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CRT's are gone and im still seeing records broke.

They had full veto power, if it isnt working out for them, tough ..... No one held a gun to their head to make them vote with Honda for 20 litres of fuel and 5 engines, did they?

ReddiWhip said:

At this point, I honestly can not remember if MM was leading the race, and didn't DVR the race so I can't check. I thought MM went into the final lap with the lead, and held it. I'll take your word for it and admit I was wrong. Please forgive my error. With that said, the speed difference coming down the front straight was still obvious. And Lorenzo indicated the exact same thing. Also, every other point I made was valid. As far as Lorenzo's ability to setup a bike, I guess I don't understand why that would be in question. Sure, Top Speed is indeed only one part of winning. In my initial post, what I said was that on a day that the turning seemed somewhat equal, the Straightaway speed made the difference.



MM's ability to jockey the bike around isn't in question. The part in question is when the bike straight up, he's in full tuck, still, and he's blowing by Lorenzo. Yeah, the part you and I can do.

I know you guys are denying what you see, but look at the comments by writers, who get paid to cover this ...., and see what they say. And when you get done that, see what the riders, who actually ride the machines say.

Everyone seems to be hell bent to prove MM's greatness. I AM OPENLY SAYING, HE'S GREAT! Again, repeat, HE'S GREAT. Why is it so hard for you guys to say the rules changes, and Honda's money to develop a bike in the current environment may be playing a part in making an already GREAT rider that much more dominant. I'm truly hoping he wins every race, and takes every pole this season in the process. Don't be confused, we're routing for the same thing guys.

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And im telling you, i dont care what riders say, it can be taken with a grain of salt. What they say is self serving, and writers just puke out what the rider says. The facts are, 3 other Yamahas had faster trap times than Marquez. That means the bike has it in it. Marquez led only 2 laps the entire race, Which means he was behind Lorenzo getting a tow on all but one full straight the entire race. Of course he is going to show higher speeds. Marquez and his team set their bike up with the gearing they thought gave them the best chance to win the race, the same way Lorenzo and his team geared their bike that they thought would give them the best shot of winning. Maybe Jorge should have used a different strategy and gearing to use the tow on the last straight like his opponent did. The Yamaha has what it takes to win, especially now with visibly better braking. Its up to the riders to get it done. Pedrosa's performance on the other factory Honda cannot be discounted. Without a certain rider on the grid, Yamaha has 4 wins in six races and the Honda is looking very pedestrian. Or are we going to start another conspiracy that Marquez's bike has unobtanium parts that even Pedrosa cant put his hands on.

mario27 said:

I ....... love to read your comments , here and at F1 threads.

https://twitter.com/26_DaniPedrosa/status/473198117563953152

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Is that a career injury, because Dani has been afflicted with this issue his entire career. Damn shame he didnt get it looked after early , he might have been really something. The dude is a fast fast rider, he just doesnt have it in him to take risks, the greats do. He will follow a slower rider for 10 laps waiting for a mistake so he can make a risk free pass, while the other riders are yankin and bankin making .... happen.

birdman said:

It always amuses me to see the same people who complained incessantly about how electronics were making the difference with rear wheel hop etc etc now revising their own history based on Marquez. No more boring race write ups. No more boycott threats. Hawk Pov and Krop the Three Marquez Amigos.

Sure Marquez is the best rider. I would speculate if he was on the Yamaha and Lorenzo on the Honda the results would be the same..................or would they? Marquez six straight on the Yam? Maybe, maybe not. With one litre less fuel they are more slaves to the electronics than ever. The Honda allows the throttle heavy technique you describe above, not sure if the Yam does as well. Marquez may adapt to that, in fact I think like all great riders he would find a way, but it sure would be interesting to see.

The observation I have from this race is simple mathematics. If we witness those swooping lines especially on the last corner Lorenzo actually rode a longer distance race than Marquez. In a non-fuel limited formula it wouldnt matter too much, but at present if we add up those precious few meters on every corner every lap it possibly adds up to quite a bit. I dont think Lorenzo's style is favoured at all at present with this formula.

And who came up with the fuel limited formula? Was it Yamaha? No. So in an attempt to explain, Marquez's greatness does not preclude Honda cheating this series with locked engines and ever diminishing fuel limits now does it. Pov and Krop wont get it, you might.

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The reduced fuel isn't going to decrease Jl's corner speed, he's a slave to the tires. MM is riding around that problem and until he gets on the Yam I don't think we'll ever know if it has the power to be ridden like that, but if I had to guess I think it does, Jlo has competitive starts with it. I don't like the engine freeze or the fuel limit, but Yamaha could have pulled a Ducati and continued development and had more fuel.
I also think the results would be the same, you said it yourself, JL's style is not favored. It isn't just the technical style MM rides with, the kid is always all in, he shows it every time he tosses that bike into a corner.

povol said:

And im telling you, i dont care what riders say, it can be taken with a grain of salt. What they say is self serving, and writers just puke out what the rider says. The facts are, 3 other Yamahas had faster trap times than Marquez. That means the bike has it in it. Marquez led only 2 laps the entire race, Which means he was behind Lorenzo getting a tow on all but one full straight the entire race. Of course he is going to show higher speeds. Marquez and his team set their bike up with the gearing they thought gave them the best chance to win the race, the same way Lorenzo and his team geared their bike that they thought would give them the best shot of winning. Maybe Jorge should have used a different strategy and gearing to use the tow on the last straight like his opponent did. The Yamaha has what it takes to win, especially now with visibly better braking. Its up to the riders to get it done. Pedrosa's performance on the other factory Honda cannot be discounted. Without a certain rider on the grid, Yamaha has 4 wins in six races and the Honda is looking very pedestrian. Or are we going to start another conspiracy that Marquez's bike has unobtanium parts that even Pedrosa cant put his hands on.

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That worthless rolling billboard cant put his hands on the top of my kitchen counter without a ladder.
Him and Rossis data is worthless unless your counting the monetary data gained from all the Tv time their sponsors are getting from them cruising around the track
How could Marquez possibly have the fastest trap times when hes sandbagging for 21 of 22 laps

povol said:

CRT's are gone and im still seeing records broke.

They had full veto power, if it isnt working out for them, tough ..... No one held a gun to their head to make them vote with Honda for 20 litres of fuel and 5 engines, did they?

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hawkdriver said:

The reduced fuel isn't going to decrease Jl's corner speed, he's a slave to the tires. MM is riding around that problem and until he gets on the Yam I don't think we'll ever know if it has the power to be ridden like that, but if I had to guess I think it does, Jlo has competitive starts with it. I don't like the engine freeze or the fuel limit, but Yamaha could have pulled a Ducati and continued development and had more fuel.
I also think the results would be the same, you said it yourself, JL's style is not favored. It isn't just the technical style MM rides with, the kid is always all in, he shows it every time he tosses that bike into a corner.

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Both good responses.


Pov, I get your point, even glossing over the fact the MSMA vote has shrunk to 2 lone members with the Ducati defection (remembering the MSMA once consisted of Aprilia, Ducati, Kwaka, Suzi, Yam, Honda), you are correct, no one held a gun to Yamaha.

Reading both responses I was actually forced to change my assessment of the situation. Yamaha are in fact the dominant manufacturer. I didnt need to google it because I know they have won more championships. And they do it on a lower budget. Therefore as a company in terms of ROI and in engineering efficiency they are simply better. The Yam satelight riders generally beat Honda's, now the Yam open class is spanking Honda's production racer.

So in terms of why they didnt veto the rule changes, I guess Yamaha figured there was nothing to fear. Last year Lorenzo won more races and barring injury it would have been Yamaha again. Honda imo want to be seen as the dominant force and thats why they compulsively change rules. Yet even this year they are not dominant without Marquez. Give credit where its due, and also in comparison Lorenzo is in the better position overall. Hawk I think Marquez would be doing just fine on the Yam, Lorenzo might get a bit of a rude shock if he ever tries the Honda.

povol said:

And im telling you, i dont care what riders say, it can be taken with a grain of salt. What they say is self serving, and writers just puke out what the rider says. The facts are, 3 other Yamahas had faster trap times than Marquez. That means the bike has it in it. Marquez led only 2 laps the entire race, Which means he was behind Lorenzo getting a tow on all but one full straight the entire race. Of course he is going to show higher speeds. Marquez and his team set their bike up with the gearing they thought gave them the best chance to win the race, the same way Lorenzo and his team geared their bike that they thought would give them the best shot of winning. Maybe Jorge should have used a different strategy and gearing to use the tow on the last straight like his opponent did. The Yamaha has what it takes to win, especially now with visibly better braking. Its up to the riders to get it done. Pedrosa's performance on the other factory Honda cannot be discounted. Without a certain rider on the grid, Yamaha has 4 wins in six races and the Honda is looking very pedestrian. Or are we going to start another conspiracy that Marquez's bike has unobtanium parts that even Pedrosa cant put his hands on.

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So what all the paid professionals say and write doesn't mean ...., because it doesn't help Povol's attempt to prove a point... I see. That's funny. The only thing I said in my first post, which you've clearly objected to is that between Lorenzo and Marquez, the turning seemed equal, but Marquez had an advantage today, during the straight. It was rather obvious. I'm sorry you can't admit to just one silly aspect of the race because it doesn't fall in line with the Marquez is Jesus argument. Please remove the Marc-A-Vision glasses for just a second. It's a pity you can't be objective. And what do you mean Honda would be looking pedestrian without Marquez? He would be behind Rossi by ONE POINT after Mugello? That would be pretty damn good considering he's an injured rider, without testicles as you put it. Don't you agree?

I'm certain that Lorenzo got all that was to be gotten out of the Yamaha at Mugello. Like I said, you can't increase Top End speed without decreasing acceleration. Changing his gearing likely would've given MM an advantage on other parts of the track. I think the Yamaha has what it takes to win a race as well. But that doesn't mean the Honda isn't clearly the superior machine this season. Why is that so hard to say? I can say that just as easily as I can say Yamaha had the best bike in '08, '09, '10. It's really not that tough. Also, both the tracks where the Yamaha riders were most competitive were tracks once considered "Yamaha Tracks" for the last few years. I guess we can't really say that anymore though. Like I said in other threads, tracks that were once considered Yamaha Tracks are now equal, or slightly favor Honda. Tracks that were Honda Tracks are now Honda runaways.

As far as the conspiracy talk, I don't know what you're referencing. No matter what myself or anyone says, you'll just say it's irrelevant, which proves the faulty logic you come to bat with. This is the most I've posted on a forum, cause I love the sport of MotoGP. However, this has become too much like work. I leave this thread up to you from here Pov.

I was there at the end of the straight, looking over the San Donato corner, and the ease with which Marquez could slipstream Lorenzo was very apparent. He confirmed this by saying, after the race, that they got the sixth gear just right for that purpose. It was a race plan in case of duel -- having the edge in the straight leading into the only tight corner of the track, where the Honda can show its braking prowess. I must add that mid corner at the San Donato Marc showed his skill by closing his line on Lorenzo after going (inevitably) wide - his bike control is amazing.

On another note, please give Iannone a decently competitive bike. The lad is so eager to bring the fight to Marquez, and with a competitive bike (Bradl's bike or Espargaro's would be good enough for him) he certainly would. Maybe next year's Ducati will be good enough...? That would be soooo nice.

birdman said:

Both good responses.


Pov, I get your point, even glossing over the fact the MSMA vote has shrunk to 2 lone members with the Ducati defection (remembering the MSMA once consisted of Aprilia, Ducati, Kwaka, Suzi, Yam, Honda), you are correct, no one held a gun to Yamaha.

Reading both responses I was actually forced to change my assessment of the situation. Yamaha are in fact the dominant manufacturer. I didnt need to google it because I know they have won more championships. And they do it on a lower budget. Therefore as a company in terms of ROI and in engineering efficiency they are simply better. The Yam satelight riders generally beat Honda's, now the Yam open class is spanking Honda's production racer.

So in terms of why they didnt veto the rule changes, I guess Yamaha figured there was nothing to fear. Last year Lorenzo won more races and barring injury it would have been Yamaha again. Honda imo want to be seen as the dominant force and thats why they compulsively change rules. Yet even this year they are not dominant without Marquez. Give credit where its due, and also in comparison Lorenzo is in the better position overall. Hawk I think Marquez would be doing just fine on the Yam, Lorenzo might get a bit of a rude shock if he ever tries the Honda.

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In some respects that is true. What they have achieved in GP racing is admirable and they should be commended. Of course we have no idea what any of these factories actually spend, but i will go with the common perception that Honda spends probably double what anyone else spends. They like to win and by the way, im pretty sure that Honda has more titles than Yamaha

ReddiWhip said:

So what all the paid professionals say and write doesn't mean ...., because it doesn't help Povol's attempt to prove a point... I see. That's funny. The only thing I said in my first post, which you've clearly objected to is that between Lorenzo and Marquez, the turning seemed equal, but Marquez had an advantage today, during the straight. It was rather obvious. I'm sorry you can't admit to just one silly aspect of the race because it doesn't fall in line with the Marquez is Jesus argument. Please remove the Marc-A-Vision glasses for just a second. It's a pity you can't be objective. And what do you mean Honda would be looking pedestrian without Marquez? He would be behind Rossi by ONE POINT after Mugello? That would be pretty damn good considering he's an injured rider, without testicles as you put it. Don't you agree?

I'm certain that Lorenzo got all that was to be gotten out of the Yamaha at Mugello. Like I said, you can't increase Top End speed without decreasing acceleration. Changing his gearing likely would've given MM an advantage on other parts of the track. I think the Yamaha has what it takes to win a race as well. But that doesn't mean the Honda isn't clearly the superior machine this season. Why is that so hard to say? I can say that just as easily as I can say Yamaha had the best bike in '08, '09, '10. It's really not that tough. Also, both the tracks where the Yamaha riders were most competitive were tracks once considered "Yamaha Tracks" for the last few years. I guess we can't really say that anymore though. Like I said in other threads, tracks that were once considered Yamaha Tracks are now equal, or slightly favor Honda. Tracks that were Honda Tracks are now Honda runaways.

As far as the conspiracy talk, I don't know what you're referencing. No matter what myself or anyone says, you'll just say it's irrelevant, which proves the faulty logic you come to bat with. This is the most I've posted on a forum, cause I love the sport of MotoGP. However, this has become too much like work. I leave this thread up to you from here Pov.

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I guess my objection is the use of the word superior. By definition, superior can simply mean better, which for the umptenth time, yes the Honda has a slightly better bike. It can also mean unrivaled, or matchless, and that is how most of the whiners in the GP world are using it. The bike is not unrivaled or matchless, it is a great machine that in the right hands is very hard to beat.In the hands of another rider "who by some consider one of the top 10 riders in the history of the sport, myself included, even though he has small balls" it becomes very beatable. All im saying is Marquez is the difference right now, not the bike.

Gotta agree... Sure the Honda is a bit better, but not by much, sure it has advantages but so does the Yam over an average lap. As already stated take MM out and we have 4 wins for Yam and 2 for Honda, look a little deeper and you will see even in the Sat bikes the Yams seem to be edging the Honda's in the standings, with the rookie cry baby in 6th ahead of 2 sat Honda's, last years Yam (with benefits?) also ahead of 2 sat Honda's, hell even Bradly Smith is within touching distance of AB and SB.
MM is making most of the difference he's just in his stride, sky high confidence and yes the best bike too.

But I think Lorenzo has finally got his head in gear an had he done it earlier probably could have beaten the old man at least another couple of times this year.

J4rn0 said:

I was there at the end of the straight, looking over the San Donato corner, and the ease with which Marquez could slipstream Lorenzo was very apparent. He confirmed this by saying, after the race, that they got the sixth gear just right for that purpose. It was a race plan in case of duel -- having the edge in the straight leading into the only tight corner of the track, where the Honda can show its braking prowess. I must add that mid corner at the San Donato Marc showed his skill by closing his line on Lorenzo after going (inevitably) wide - his bike control is amazing.

On another note, please give Iannone a decently competitive bike. The lad is so eager to bring the fight to Marquez, and with a competitive bike (Bradl's bike or Espargaro's would be good enough for him) he certainly would. Maybe next year's Ducati will be good enough...? That would be soooo nice.

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Hell yes Iannone needs to be on a better bike, I haven't paid to much attention to his actual riding with limited TV time for me this year, but he's been able to put in some impressive lap times. I think the with a good crew he could be something special. It doesn't get talked about to much, but MM's crew is doing an amazing job and they deserve plenty of credit along with him. The plan they had for this race was brilliant and they gave him a comfort zone to ride in at a possible bogey track.

povol said:

I guess my objection is the use of the word superior. By definition, superior can simply mean better, which for the umptenth time, yes the Honda has a slightly better bike. It can also mean unrivaled, or matchless, and that is how most of the whiners in the GP world are using it. The bike is not unrivaled or matchless, it is a great machine that in the right hands is very hard to beat.In the hands of another rider "who by some consider one of the top 10 riders in the history of the sport, myself included, even though he has small balls" it becomes very beatable. All im saying is Marquez is the difference right now, not the bike.

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Exactly, MM is the factor. Without him, we would probably still be speaking of Yamaha as the best bike overall. Honda has had an edge for four years now, but without Stoner first and Marquez afterwards, that edge wouldn't have been so apparent. Some point to the ease with wich Marquez passed Lorenzo on the straight, but that was mainly the result of tall gear choice and good slipstreaming -- average top speed was 333 Kmh for Lorenzo, 337.4 for Marquez and 338.5 for Rossi.

birdman said:

Both good responses.


Pov, I get your point, even glossing over the fact the MSMA vote has shrunk to 2 lone members with the Ducati defection (remembering the MSMA once consisted of Aprilia, Ducati, Kwaka, Suzi, Yam, Honda), you are correct, no one held a gun to Yamaha.

Reading both responses I was actually forced to change my assessment of the situation. Yamaha are in fact the dominant manufacturer. I didnt need to google it because I know they have won more championships. And they do it on a lower budget. Therefore as a company in terms of ROI and in engineering efficiency they are simply better. The Yam satelight riders generally beat Honda's, now the Yam open class is spanking Honda's production racer.

So in terms of why they didnt veto the rule changes, I guess Yamaha figured there was nothing to fear. Last year Lorenzo won more races and barring injury it would have been Yamaha again. Honda imo want to be seen as the dominant force and thats why they compulsively change rules. Yet even this year they are not dominant without Marquez. Give credit where its due, and also in comparison Lorenzo is in the better position overall. Hawk I think Marquez would be doing just fine on the Yam, Lorenzo might get a bit of a rude shock if he ever tries the Honda.

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Maybe you should have looked it up
Constructors Championships - Yamaha 14 to Honda 19
Riders Championships - Yamaha 16 to Honda 16

I am also confused as to what you mean by your statement that Lorenzo "is in the better position overall". Even if Marques didn't exist, the riders WC would be Rossi 120, Pedrosa 119, Lorenzo 79 - what am I missing?

just to add to the 'engine' debate, does anyone know how quicker (if quicker is the word) the honda reaches its top speed compared to the yam? it's really never about the top speed but how fast your bike can accelerate away from a corner.

yamaka46 said:

Maybe you should have looked it up
Constructors Championships - Yamaha 14 to Honda 19
Riders Championships - Yamaha 16 to Honda 16

I am also confused as to what you mean by your statement that Lorenzo "is in the better position overall". Even if Marques didn't exist, the riders WC would be Rossi 120, Pedrosa 119, Lorenzo 79 - what am I missing?

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Dont use Google. Think for yourself, in the four-stroke era which ride would you take. I say since they switched to the cross-plane crank I would take the Yamaha as the career choice bike to have. And when Honda meddles with the rules ala change to 800cc Yamaha generally kicked there arse. Switch to 1000cc again Yamaha adapt faster. Future change to control ecu I think Yamaha will adapt faster. From there its easy to say Lorenzo is in the better position, he is on a factory Yamaha.

Tekniqs said:

just to add to the 'engine' debate, does anyone know how quicker (if quicker is the word) the honda reaches its top speed compared to the yam? it's really never about the top speed but how fast your bike can accelerate away from a corner.

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In the case of Mugello, the Yamaha was reaching its max speed on the main straight faster than the Honda. The Yamaha still has corner speed advantage and the Honda hooks up slightly better coming out of the corners

birdman said:

Dont use Google. Think for yourself, in the four-stroke era which ride would you take?

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Easy - the Ducati. I have mad skills an would have made Casey's results look like child's-play!