MotoGP: 2015 round 18 - Valencia (SPOILERS)

michaelm · Nov 11, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Lorenzo is on record saying that Marquez may have spared him a possible pass at Valencia "to keep the title in Spain". This was also the impression of most observers. Again, not illegal, and motives cannot be proven, -- and Lorenzo's title was deserved anyway -- but this is what he said, and to an extent what happened at Valencia substantiates Rossi's "accusations".

I bow to you on Italian idiom obviously, but didn't know you were an expert on Spanish idiom in addition, and if the initial statement was in his non-native English the same potential for misunderstanding exists for him as for Valentino, except Valentino is much more adept at English. My understanding of the comment which I have only seen in reports was that he was saying MM refrained from attempting a risky pass which might have taken Jorge or both of them out, as he did at PI btw.

My post in any case was in answer to another poster who was suggesting Jorge shouldn't be believed rather than the reverse, and concerned what Jorge had said about PI or Sepang which should be disbelieved.

J4rn0 · Nov 11, 2015

Gaz said:
But J4, not ONE of these so called 'competent observers' mentions any concerns PRIOR to the Thursday press conference and MOST journalists and remaining competent observers admit and have stated that they were totally blown away by the suggestions of VR which kind of aligns to MOST people saw nothing untoward.

Of course from then on it became a person like/dislike/bias in some areas and from many I also suspect a case of 'which side is me bread buttered and I believe that side' for many.

None of this would have occurred if VR stated something immediately after PI or stated nothing at all but simply shut-up, raced and then at seasons end made a statement

Rossi felt he had to speak out precisely because otherwise (in his view) Marquez' supposed scheme could pass unobserved. That this was wise or not, that's another matter.

Gaz · Nov 11, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Lorenzo is on record saying that Marquez may have spared him a possible pass at Valencia "to keep the title in Spain". This was also the impression of most observers. Again, not illegal, and motives cannot be proven, -- and Lorenzo's title was deserved anyway -- but this is what he said, and to an extent what happened at Valencia substantiates Rossi's "accusations".

Sorry J4, but BS

Yes JL said that and then clarified exactly what he meant by it which was that it was great to have MM and DP between him and VR so that the title remained in Spain, in much the same way that Petrucci tried to get the title to Italy by going so wide he was in another post code

The rest is BS, and does not support any of Rossi's allegations but the continued public attacks from Rossi on other involved parties does substantiate claims that Rossi does believe he is above the sport and really is bordering on 'lunacy' in his actions

People bleated about CS but the last 3 weeks has been far worse than anything we saw from CS, Gibbers or Biaggi ......... possible even combined

J4rn0 · Nov 11, 2015

michaelm said:
I bow to you on Italian idiom obviously, but didn't know you were an expert on Spanish idiom in addition, and if the initial statement was in his non-native English the same potential for misunderstanding exists for him as for Valentino, except Valentino is much more adept at English. My understanding of the comment which I have only seen in reports was that he was saying MM refrained from attempting a risky pass which might have taken Jorge or both of them out, as he did at PI btw.

My post in any case was in answer to another poster who was suggesting Jorge shouldn't be believed rather than the reverse, and concerned what Jorge had said about PI or Sepang which should be disbelieved.

Lorenzo repeated it in Italian when interviewed by the Italian media. Like most riders and paddock people, he speaks Italian well enough.

Gaz · Nov 11, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Rossi felt he had to speak out precisely because otherwise (in his view) Marquez' supposed scheme could pass unobserved. That this was wise or not, that's another matter.

Can I ask you ......... yes or no ............. do you support the accusations?

I will state now ............. NO .............. VR is grasping and clawing for an excuse as he has realised that today a number of riders are not now his equal, but better and (understandably) he does not like it (and I would not expect him to).

The character assassinations he has undertaken are poor form from any sport person and I do hope that in years ahead he both regrets and apologises to all and sundry for his petulant actions

J4rn0 · Nov 11, 2015

Gaz said:
Sorry J4, but BS

Yes JL said that and then clarified exactly what he meant by it which was that it was great to have MM and DP between him and VR so that the title remained in Spain, in much the same way that Petrucci tried to get the title to Italy by going so wide he was in another post code

The rest is BS, and does not support any of Rossi's allegations but the continued public attacks from Rossi on other involved parties does substantiate claims that Rossi does believe he is above the sport and really is bordering on 'lunacy' in his actions

People bleated about CS but the last 3 weeks has been far worse than anything we saw from CS, Gibbers or Biaggi ......... possible even combined

He said it in two interviews I saw, one in English and one in Italian. This was immediately after the race. I appreciated his honesty. The fact that later he may have backpedaled on it is not surprising, it maybe was too honest.

J4rn0 · Nov 11, 2015

Gaz said:
Can I ask you ......... yes or no ............. do you support the accusations?

I will state now ............. NO .............. VR is grasping and clawing for an excuse as he has realised that today a number of riders are not now his equal, but better and (understandably) he does not like it (and I would not expect him to).

The character assassinations he has undertaken are poor form from any sport person and I do hope that in years ahead he both regrets and apologises to all and sundry for his petulant actions

I think Rossi's reading of the facts has substance. That it is "true" or not nobody can tell. I would not have accused MM in such a public way though, precisely because nothing can be proven. I would have spoken to race direction maybe, and certainly to MM directly, but in private.

Edit to add: "character assassination" is rather what is going on in this forum with Rossi as target.

RCV600RR · Nov 11, 2015

michaelm said:
What statements has JL made that are questionable, btw? He was presumably trying as hard as he could himself, and certainly appeared to me to be doing so, and as far as I know has not commented on how hard MM was trying at PI or Sepang.

Agreed, I'm not sure why I mentioned him. I can't recall him entering the actual debate.

Gaz · Nov 11, 2015

J4rn0 said:
I think Rossi's reading of the facts has substance. That it is "true" or not nobody can tell. I would not have accused MM in such a public way though, precisely because nothing can be proven. I would have spoken to race direction maybe, and certainly to MM directly, but in private.

I can accept that and personally as I have said for a few weeks, no matter what one feels as to the validity or otherwise of the 'suggestions', the manner in which Rossi raised them was poor, ill timed, undeserved and targetted to garner both sympathy and support

Personally, I suspect that he did not expect the backlash and/or rabid fanatical support but that he hoped for some take up, just not the tidal wave that occurred, but then once started he rode it and continues to do so

Edited to add:
However the continued personal attacks and the throwing of 'sideline' people under the bus reflects poorly on him and I say him as he is responsible as I suspect that his team (Yamaha amongst others) have advised against much of what he has done

Of course, it will not harm him now or in business (afterall he has removed MM's equipment from his businesses) but as life goes on, he may wish that he had done things differently

RCV600RR · Nov 11, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Lorenzo repeated it in Italian when interviewed by the Italian media. Like most riders and paddock people, he speaks Italian well enough.

michaelm · Nov 11, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Marquez is a great rider no doubt, but the two cannot be compared.

First, 0.3 was the net margin MM had on Lorenzo at the finish line at P.I. -- you must add to that the time needed to reach Lorenzo and pass him, so the total gained is closer to 0.8 (in less than a lap). And it looked easy enough.

At Assen Rossi and MM were in front and were fighting it out for the win no holds barred. Marquez could reach Rossi at the last chicane taking big risks (visible) but he was at the very limit and failed to pass him.

Great riding always, but the difference is between a real duel and a fake one, imho.

MM's last lap was 0.378 seconds quicker than his previous one, Lorenzo's was 0.327 seconds slower. How surprising that MM of all people in the field can pull out a banzai lap. He has of course never been known to do that in qualifying.

I actually think he got smarter over the course of the season, realised he couldn't dominate as he had previously, and in the second half of the season decided to reserve such laps for the end of the race. He very clearly had bike issues earlier in the race, and in fact Valentino initially caught and passed him on a lap where he ran it wide once then had a near tank slapper on a straight.

Gaz · Nov 11, 2015

RCV600RR said:

Thanks RCV but nothing in it.

As an Anglo fat ....... Aussie, I see what he is saying as they were between he and VR, not helping and that to keep the title Spanish was a successful result ......... of course we all see and read differently but do not see anything in it

J4rn0 · Nov 11, 2015

Rossi's real big blunder was losing his nerve and pushing Marquez wide. The rest was just a mediatic self-goal maybe, but intentionally slowing down and obliging MM to run wide was a concrete punishable action during an actual race. I think that is what he has to regret.

RCV600RR · Nov 11, 2015

Gaz said:
Thanks RCV but nothing in it.

As an Anglo fat ....... Aussie, I see what he is saying as they were between he and VR, not helping and that to keep the title Spanish was a successful result ......... of course we all see and read differently but do not see anything in it

His words in Italian are unambiguous, although that translation is not spot on (and I speak Italian very well, by the way).

Gaz · Nov 11, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Rossi's real big blunder was losing his nerve and pushing Marquez wide. The rest was just a mediatic self-goal maybe, but intentionally slowing down and obliging MM to run wide was a concrete punishable action during an actual race. I think that is what he has to regret.

And apologise for .............

Rossi's serious blunder was being 'out mind gamed' as he placed MM into his head and simply seemed to focus on MM.

Basically to me, he became almost infatuated with MM and really, no matter what MM did he was going to be critical as his focus was not on a race, or a ride, or a championship, but his focus was on a person.

Whilst I do not subscribe to the theory that VR cannot win another title were he not to win 2015, I wonder if VR started to believe it

Gaz · Nov 11, 2015

RCV600RR said:
His words in Italian are unambiguous, although that translation is not spot on (and I speak Italian very well, by the way).

Nope

Your and my interpretations of it are unambiguous (either side of the reading)

If MM was helping JL, he would not have been so close throughout the race but rather 1 - 2 seconds back ......

But I do believe that he wanted the championship in Spain ........ same as all the Italian riders would have wanted it in Italy and so forth

jmmk · Nov 12, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Rossi's real big blunder was losing his nerve and pushing Marquez wide. The rest was just a mediatic self-goal maybe, but intentionally slowing down and obliging MM to run wide was a concrete punishable action during an actual race. I think that is what he has to regret.

Rossi's big blunder was opening his mouth in Sepang presser. Forget if what he said was true or false. He obviously miscalculated how MM would react to his words. Which BTW the more I've sen it in hindsight MM and JL both shoulda ripped Rossi on the spot for even making such accusations.

RCV600RR · Nov 12, 2015

Gaz said:
Nope

Your and my interpretations of it are unambiguous (either side of the reading)

If MM was helping JL, he would not have been so close throughout the race but rather 1 - 2 seconds back ......

But I do believe that he wanted the championship in Spain ........ same as all the Italian riders would have wanted it in Italy and so forth

Ah, I didn't realise that you spoke Italian. I didn't see any ambiguity there. Perhaps we should both cede to the native speaker, J4rno.

Gaz · Nov 12, 2015

RCV600RR said:
Ah, I didn't realise that you spoke Italian. I didn't see any ambiguity there. Perhaps we should both cede to the native speaker, J4rno.

Nah, my opinion is right and that is all there is to it

One didn't need to be an Italians speaker given that the video had English subtitles and I understand English very well thanks as I trust that translation

Just as with the VR/Ezepeleta video (the come to my room one) when using J4's translation, I suspect that there is the literal word and the intended word and mix that with JL not being a native Italian speaker, I suspect that literal and intent could be 2 different things

#22 · Nov 12, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Coming from you, and with the mandatory "Like" by Jums, I take it as a compliment by the real experts.

Haha, 'Mandatory likes' I like that..

J4rn0 said:
When you gain almost a second in the last lap on Lorenzo to beat him, there is no need to have ridden an Honda recently to understand you might have held it back in previous laps. Again, its not illegal, and the motive cannot be proven, but doubt is legitimate.

So by that supposition, Dani Pedrosa held it back in Valencia, Motegi. Marquez held it back in Indianapolis and at Assen. So Each of those races was illegitimate?

michaelm said:
You also didn't answer why him riding a last lap 0.3 seconds faster to catch Lorenzo at PI was suspicious while catching up 0.4 seconds on Rossi on the last lap at Assen wasn't.

J4rn0 said:
Marquez is a great rider no doubt, but the two cannot be compared.

First, 0.3 was the net margin MM had on Lorenzo at the finish line at P.I. -- you must add to that the time needed to reach Lorenzo and pass him, so the total gained is closer to 0.8 (in less than a lap). And it looked easy enough.

At Assen Rossi and MM were in front and were fighting it out for the win no holds barred. Marquez could reach Rossi at the last chicane taking big risks (visible) but he was at the very limit and failed to pass him.

Great riding always, but the difference is between a real duel and a fake one, imho.

The two cannot be compared, because to do so would not support your argument in bias of Rossi...

J4rn0 said:
Rossi's real big blunder was losing his nerve and pushing Marquez wide. The rest was just a mediatic self-goal maybe, but intentionally slowing down and obliging MM to run wide was a concrete punishable action during an actual race. I think that is what he has to regret.

Finally we agree on something.

MotoGP: 2015 round 18 - Valencia (SPOILERS)

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

michaelm

J4rn0

Gaz

J4rn0

Gaz

J4rn0

J4rn0

RCV600RR

Gaz

RCV600RR

michaelm

Gaz

J4rn0

RCV600RR

Gaz

Gaz

jmmk

RCV600RR

Gaz

#22

Similar threads

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions