<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 15 2009, 08:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Either way there has been very little to pick between the two this season
between the three really.
between the three really.
championships aside, is jorge better than rossi?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 15 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I read that as an invitation to compare the two riders current form rather than just looking at who has won more in the past. Either way there has been very little to pick between the two this season
Thats very true, but i dont think the question was 09 season specific. The race craft shown by both lorenzo and rossi at catalyuna this year showed rossi still has the edge because of the passes he did and the fact he won. but over the seasons both have been riding rossi has been the more consistent. Which has already been said if you read the thread.
lorenzo is only going to get better though !
Thats very true, but i dont think the question was 09 season specific. The race craft shown by both lorenzo and rossi at catalyuna this year showed rossi still has the edge because of the passes he did and the fact he won. but over the seasons both have been riding rossi has been the more consistent. Which has already been said if you read the thread.
lorenzo is only going to get better though !
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Jun 15 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>between the three really.
exactly right, there are 3 riders drawing on points but the thread queston did not mention him
exactly right, there are 3 riders drawing on points but the thread queston did not mention him
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 15 2009, 10:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but the thread queston did not mention him
bull's eye!
bull's eye!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jun 15 2009, 02:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Look don't think he isn't losing a step cause the Rossi of old would havew never even had to battle Jorge. He would have been gooooooooneeee in years past.
I strongly disagree, not because I "need" Rossi way ahead, but because the bikes of today are way to "easy" to ride. Rossi proved what he is worth in that last corner on sunday. That was on one single occation (I haven't seen the race so there could be more), and more often than not there is not even one single occation that even comes up for anyone. Five years ago he had the oppertunety to show "his worth" a dozen times in a race if nesessarry. This is all down to how good the bikes have become. A very good rider can stay there at the very edge 99 - 100% all through the race and get away with it.
10 years ago none could do that, the true masters like Doohan and Rossi could for an extended period of time, lets say up about 10-15 laps, but then they really really pushed it far.
At the level of todays motoGP we can't expect one rider to make a huge difference between riders on the same equipment and that's also why Lorezo and Rossi were glued together. I watched the lap times and section times and there were hardly time-loosing misstakes at all in that race. And that goes for the top 6 riders. Capirossi had one and Dovi had one but that's about it. Two misstakes with the total of 1 second lost in a total of 150 laps going in record braking pace! That really says it all. That's why Rossi or any other for that matter doesn't fly away.
Of course I blame this (again) on the advanced rider aids and it does not only make Rossi smaller it also hide the potential any of the other top riders might have to rise above pure speed and show pure genious.
I don't know if Lorenzo is the nixt big star, or Stoner, what I do know is that any of them are going to have a hard time proving it at all with the current rules.
I strongly disagree, not because I "need" Rossi way ahead, but because the bikes of today are way to "easy" to ride. Rossi proved what he is worth in that last corner on sunday. That was on one single occation (I haven't seen the race so there could be more), and more often than not there is not even one single occation that even comes up for anyone. Five years ago he had the oppertunety to show "his worth" a dozen times in a race if nesessarry. This is all down to how good the bikes have become. A very good rider can stay there at the very edge 99 - 100% all through the race and get away with it.
10 years ago none could do that, the true masters like Doohan and Rossi could for an extended period of time, lets say up about 10-15 laps, but then they really really pushed it far.
At the level of todays motoGP we can't expect one rider to make a huge difference between riders on the same equipment and that's also why Lorezo and Rossi were glued together. I watched the lap times and section times and there were hardly time-loosing misstakes at all in that race. And that goes for the top 6 riders. Capirossi had one and Dovi had one but that's about it. Two misstakes with the total of 1 second lost in a total of 150 laps going in record braking pace! That really says it all. That's why Rossi or any other for that matter doesn't fly away.
Of course I blame this (again) on the advanced rider aids and it does not only make Rossi smaller it also hide the potential any of the other top riders might have to rise above pure speed and show pure genious.
I don't know if Lorenzo is the nixt big star, or Stoner, what I do know is that any of them are going to have a hard time proving it at all with the current rules.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 15 2009, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The race craft shown by both lorenzo and rossi at catalyuna this year showed rossi still has the edge because of the passes he did and the fact he won.
lorenzo is only going to get better though !
& did not make....... i don't know how many of you watching the interviews after the race but jorge made a very insightful comment going to show the racecraft of rossi. he said, & this is not a word for word quote, that he expected rossi's attemted last pass earlier & not at the last turn. very crafty stuff.
lorenzo is only going to get better though !
& did not make....... i don't know how many of you watching the interviews after the race but jorge made a very insightful comment going to show the racecraft of rossi. he said, & this is not a word for word quote, that he expected rossi's attemted last pass earlier & not at the last turn. very crafty stuff.
Can we close this thread!
Answer is obvious, they have equal speed but Rossi has the race craft. Lorenzo shoulda studied and stalked Rossi once they had gapped Stoner.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 15 2009, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats very true, but i dont think the question was 09 season specific.
Well if thats the case its a stupid and irrelevant question
Well if thats the case its a stupid and irrelevant question
Well this will upset some but here goes.
IMO, much as with Stoner I do think that Lorenzo is faster than Rossi, but Rossi is faster on a more consistent basis which is what wins races and titles.
I differ with some as both riders showed immense racecraft on the weekend by not nerfing the other and by racing at such a high level with little room for error, but doing so at such a high level. There was one mistake and that came on the last corner where Lorenzo made no effort to defend/protect because he simply did not expect an overtake attempt which is a little naive at this level. IMO, I am not certain however that he new VR was as close as he was, and to me that was JL's error and being a racer VR took full advantage.
So, to me JL is faster but Rossi is better and I feel that results both in terms of race track positions and lap sequences show this to be the case.
Garry
IMO, much as with Stoner I do think that Lorenzo is faster than Rossi, but Rossi is faster on a more consistent basis which is what wins races and titles.
I differ with some as both riders showed immense racecraft on the weekend by not nerfing the other and by racing at such a high level with little room for error, but doing so at such a high level. There was one mistake and that came on the last corner where Lorenzo made no effort to defend/protect because he simply did not expect an overtake attempt which is a little naive at this level. IMO, I am not certain however that he new VR was as close as he was, and to me that was JL's error and being a racer VR took full advantage.
So, to me JL is faster but Rossi is better and I feel that results both in terms of race track positions and lap sequences show this to be the case.
Garry
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 16 2009, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well this will upset some but here goes.
IMO, much as with Stoner I do think that Lorenzo is faster than Rossi, but Rossi is faster on a more consistent basis which is what wins races and titles.
I differ with some as both riders showed immense racecraft on the weekend by not nerfing the other and by racing at such a high level with little room for error, but doing so at such a high level. There was one mistake and that came on the last corner where Lorenzo made no effort to defend/protect because he simply did not expect an overtake attempt which is a little naive at this level. IMO, I am not certain however that he new VR was as close as he was, and to me that was JL's error and being a racer VR took full advantage.
So, to me JL is faster but Rossi is better and I feel that results both in terms of race track positions and lap sequences show this to be the case.
Garry
very good point, also we have to consider, what do we really mean when we say "better"...is being faster the same as being better? or do we need to look at a broader picture, include several elements (e.g. your point of being not just fast but also consistent) to judge and conclude about this topic.
IMO, much as with Stoner I do think that Lorenzo is faster than Rossi, but Rossi is faster on a more consistent basis which is what wins races and titles.
I differ with some as both riders showed immense racecraft on the weekend by not nerfing the other and by racing at such a high level with little room for error, but doing so at such a high level. There was one mistake and that came on the last corner where Lorenzo made no effort to defend/protect because he simply did not expect an overtake attempt which is a little naive at this level. IMO, I am not certain however that he new VR was as close as he was, and to me that was JL's error and being a racer VR took full advantage.
So, to me JL is faster but Rossi is better and I feel that results both in terms of race track positions and lap sequences show this to be the case.
Garry
very good point, also we have to consider, what do we really mean when we say "better"...is being faster the same as being better? or do we need to look at a broader picture, include several elements (e.g. your point of being not just fast but also consistent) to judge and conclude about this topic.
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I think Whore-Gay is riding "better." (Faster and with more focus.)
Rossi has several advantages to overcome.
#1 - Burgess' genius.
JB's "Magic ... Rabbit" trick has saved a couple of Valentino's races this year.
Jorge's team can't be too dense, but strongly doubt they have the same level of experience, insight, and knowledge. If the bike isn't quite there, it's up to the rider to make up the difference.
#2 - Jorge is the 'B' rider.
As such, he must adapt to whatever bike and tire characteristics Rossi prefers. Sure he can tweak the suspension, but one-off tires, or a custom frame are just not gonna happen.
#3 - Experience. This is huge, and it showed Sunday.
Despite these disadvantages, Lorenzo has taken it to VR with great effect - equal wins and tied on points. He's improving rapidly and I think he will win the title this year.
Rossi has several advantages to overcome.
#1 - Burgess' genius.
JB's "Magic ... Rabbit" trick has saved a couple of Valentino's races this year.
Jorge's team can't be too dense, but strongly doubt they have the same level of experience, insight, and knowledge. If the bike isn't quite there, it's up to the rider to make up the difference.
#2 - Jorge is the 'B' rider.
As such, he must adapt to whatever bike and tire characteristics Rossi prefers. Sure he can tweak the suspension, but one-off tires, or a custom frame are just not gonna happen.
#3 - Experience. This is huge, and it showed Sunday.
Despite these disadvantages, Lorenzo has taken it to VR with great effect - equal wins and tied on points. He's improving rapidly and I think he will win the title this year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Jun 15 2009, 10:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Despite these disadvantages, Lorenzo has taken it to VR with great effect - equal wins and tied on points. He's improving rapidly and I think he will win the title this year.
That would be interesting. Rossi to lose the championship to his teammate
That would be interesting. Rossi to lose the championship to his teammate
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jun 16 2009, 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That would be interesting. Rossi to lose the championship to his teammate
Very very interesting... I hope he's reading this
Very very interesting... I hope he's reading this
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 15 2009, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well if thats the case its a stupid and irrelevant question
LOL, the modest and tolerant chap as usuall.
On the other hand only a moron like BM would "decide" who's the "best" by only taking a snapshot of the results 20% into a championship without taking all kind of circumstances into consideration, including history of previous years.
LOL, the modest and tolerant chap as usuall.
On the other hand only a moron like BM would "decide" who's the "best" by only taking a snapshot of the results 20% into a championship without taking all kind of circumstances into consideration, including history of previous years.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jun 13 2009, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi running away, when exactly were that? I've seen him get away with a few seconds lead but regulary running away with big lead to the rest, never.
That is, first of all Pedrosas MO, then Stoner as he enjoy a big win more than a close fight. Jorge were doing this in the 250's but never since. His bloated ego of that time demaded that kind of dominating victories.
I'm not totally disagreeing with you. Rossi were dominating, as it allways is with the best rider on the best bike and no/little driver aids. But Rossi didn't need dominating victories to prove that, he perferred to play cat and mouse with his "victims", Sete and Max and crushed them in the end.
I am just saying that through Rossi's career he never had to battle as much as he does now for wins. THat is why he is Rossi isn't it? HE would stalk the guy in front as if he needed something to do before he just went to the front and ran away with the race. I wasn't really referring to any specific race or margin of gap he would have to win. I am saying that he isn't the dominating force he had been for years.
That is, first of all Pedrosas MO, then Stoner as he enjoy a big win more than a close fight. Jorge were doing this in the 250's but never since. His bloated ego of that time demaded that kind of dominating victories.
I'm not totally disagreeing with you. Rossi were dominating, as it allways is with the best rider on the best bike and no/little driver aids. But Rossi didn't need dominating victories to prove that, he perferred to play cat and mouse with his "victims", Sete and Max and crushed them in the end.
I am just saying that through Rossi's career he never had to battle as much as he does now for wins. THat is why he is Rossi isn't it? HE would stalk the guy in front as if he needed something to do before he just went to the front and ran away with the race. I wasn't really referring to any specific race or margin of gap he would have to win. I am saying that he isn't the dominating force he had been for years.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jun 15 2009, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I strongly disagree, not because I "need" Rossi way ahead, but because the bikes of today are way to "easy" to ride. Rossi proved what he is worth in that last corner on sunday. That was on one single occation (I haven't seen the race so there could be more), and more often than not there is not even one single occation that even comes up for anyone. Five years ago he had the oppertunety to show "his worth" a dozen times in a race if nesessarry. This is all down to how good the bikes have become. A very good rider can stay there at the very edge 99 - 100% all through the race and get away with it.
10 years ago none could do that, the true masters like Doohan and Rossi could for an extended period of time, lets say up about 10-15 laps, but then they really really pushed it far.
At the level of todays motoGP we can't expect one rider to make a huge difference between riders on the same equipment and that's also why Lorezo and Rossi were glued together. I watched the lap times and section times and there were hardly time-loosing misstakes at all in that race. And that goes for the top 6 riders. Capirossi had one and Dovi had one but that's about it. Two misstakes with the total of 1 second lost in a total of 150 laps going in record braking pace! That really says it all. That's why Rossi or any other for that matter doesn't fly away.
Of course I blame this (again) on the advanced rider aids and it does not only make Rossi smaller it also hide the potential any of the other top riders might have to rise above pure speed and show pure genious.
I don't know if Lorenzo is the nixt big star, or Stoner, what I do know is that any of them are going to have a hard time proving it at all with the current rules.
I just think that Rossi is getting older (not a bad thing at all). It could help him in ways due to experience. He is perfecting his racecraft everytime out. Jorge is awesome but not that great until he racks up some WC's in the premier class. Stoner has one already so really this thread should llok at Stoner instead of Jorge. The answers would be much the same though anyway.
10 years ago none could do that, the true masters like Doohan and Rossi could for an extended period of time, lets say up about 10-15 laps, but then they really really pushed it far.
At the level of todays motoGP we can't expect one rider to make a huge difference between riders on the same equipment and that's also why Lorezo and Rossi were glued together. I watched the lap times and section times and there were hardly time-loosing misstakes at all in that race. And that goes for the top 6 riders. Capirossi had one and Dovi had one but that's about it. Two misstakes with the total of 1 second lost in a total of 150 laps going in record braking pace! That really says it all. That's why Rossi or any other for that matter doesn't fly away.
Of course I blame this (again) on the advanced rider aids and it does not only make Rossi smaller it also hide the potential any of the other top riders might have to rise above pure speed and show pure genious.
I don't know if Lorenzo is the nixt big star, or Stoner, what I do know is that any of them are going to have a hard time proving it at all with the current rules.
I just think that Rossi is getting older (not a bad thing at all). It could help him in ways due to experience. He is perfecting his racecraft everytime out. Jorge is awesome but not that great until he racks up some WC's in the premier class. Stoner has one already so really this thread should llok at Stoner instead of Jorge. The answers would be much the same though anyway.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Jun 16 2009, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Whore-Gay is riding "better." (Faster and with more focus.)
Rossi has several advantages to overcome.
#1 - Burgess' genius.
#2 - Jorge is the 'B' rider.
#3 - Experience. This is huge, and it showed Sunday.
Or we could turn it around and put it this way:
#1. Lorenzo got the best setup handed to him for free. Instead of focusing on bike development for the next 6 months to remain competetive he can focus on perfcting the best setup that is out there. There are valid examples of riders who have done great as 2nd rider and even won a year or two after the previous 1st rider left the team, and then did nothing after that.
#2. Jorge are living in a relaxed buble compared to his much more famous rival and team mate. He can focus on racing while Rossi are pulled in all direction as every one want a pice of him.
#3. In the fastest two wheel sport in the world, what can be more valuable then young, lightning fast reflexes? As 250GP winner that climbed the ranks from spanish to world level taking two world championships with him Lorenzo got the best of two worlds: Experience and youth.
Despite all these disadvantages Rossi the poor old guy is still on top of the list with equal points as his much younger enemies.
I'm not serious on much of this but then again I'm not taking your arguments too serious either
Rossi has several advantages to overcome.
#1 - Burgess' genius.
#2 - Jorge is the 'B' rider.
#3 - Experience. This is huge, and it showed Sunday.
Or we could turn it around and put it this way:
#1. Lorenzo got the best setup handed to him for free. Instead of focusing on bike development for the next 6 months to remain competetive he can focus on perfcting the best setup that is out there. There are valid examples of riders who have done great as 2nd rider and even won a year or two after the previous 1st rider left the team, and then did nothing after that.
#2. Jorge are living in a relaxed buble compared to his much more famous rival and team mate. He can focus on racing while Rossi are pulled in all direction as every one want a pice of him.
#3. In the fastest two wheel sport in the world, what can be more valuable then young, lightning fast reflexes? As 250GP winner that climbed the ranks from spanish to world level taking two world championships with him Lorenzo got the best of two worlds: Experience and youth.
Despite all these disadvantages Rossi the poor old guy is still on top of the list with equal points as his much younger enemies.
I'm not serious on much of this but then again I'm not taking your arguments too serious either
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jun 16 2009, 06:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am just saying that through Rossi's career he never had to battle as much as he does now for wins. THat is why he is Rossi isn't it? HE would stalk the guy in front as if he needed something to do before he just went to the front and ran away with the race. I wasn't really referring to any specific race or margin of gap he would have to win. I am saying that he isn't the dominating force he had been for years.
Fair enough it's just that I don't think Rossi has changed much. Sure he's got more experience and a pico second slower reflexes but compared to his rivals he is much the same.
He could stalk the guys, not becuase he was so much faster, but becuase the bikes were harder to race. And that again make him so much better, not faster, than his old rivals. The skill required to preserve tires, avoid high sides, stay smoth in and out of corners were so much more than what is reqiered today and it was these skills that Rossi decided most races on. When his competition had raced their tires to shreds Rossi looked very fast when he could pass them with ease and up the pace to record braking speed. But it wasn't really as much about his speed as about his tire conserving and ability to stay soft at a high pace hunting the rivals. Low weight took care of the good pace at the end.
At the same time I also agree that the competition is tougher now. Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa are all champion material and the fight's of yesterday might have looked different with them on bord. Maybe we get a glimpse of that if they could ban some driver aids.
Fair enough it's just that I don't think Rossi has changed much. Sure he's got more experience and a pico second slower reflexes but compared to his rivals he is much the same.
He could stalk the guys, not becuase he was so much faster, but becuase the bikes were harder to race. And that again make him so much better, not faster, than his old rivals. The skill required to preserve tires, avoid high sides, stay smoth in and out of corners were so much more than what is reqiered today and it was these skills that Rossi decided most races on. When his competition had raced their tires to shreds Rossi looked very fast when he could pass them with ease and up the pace to record braking speed. But it wasn't really as much about his speed as about his tire conserving and ability to stay soft at a high pace hunting the rivals. Low weight took care of the good pace at the end.
At the same time I also agree that the competition is tougher now. Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa are all champion material and the fight's of yesterday might have looked different with them on bord. Maybe we get a glimpse of that if they could ban some driver aids.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jun 17 2009, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner has one already so really this thread should llok at Stoner instead of Jorge.
i think what the thread starter wanted was to compare these two riders who rides the same bike...if it was a Rossi VS Stoner thread, there'd be skills, bikes, setup, tyres, and all other things that their respective fans could think of. it would another be a rather messy thread. IMHO, this thread actually is doing relatively well.
i think what the thread starter wanted was to compare these two riders who rides the same bike...if it was a Rossi VS Stoner thread, there'd be skills, bikes, setup, tyres, and all other things that their respective fans could think of. it would another be a rather messy thread. IMHO, this thread actually is doing relatively well.
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