Assen TT - Rnd 8 2015 - SPOILERS

J4rn0 · Jun 27, 2015

These racing episodes, one could discuss them forever -- little use in that. The real news is something else:

- Lorenzo vs Rossi is really a matter of tires: when the tire body is harder that suits Vale better, a softer construction gives the advantage to Jorge.

- Marquez is back. Using last year's chassis with the 2015 swingarm has solved the problems for him, and even if he was denied the win at Assen by a stellar and astute Rossi, we're going to see him at the front always from now on, -- even if the technical advantage he enjoyed last season seems gone.

levigarrett · Jun 27, 2015

Jum;

1. Dani says bike 2 had some issues with the clutch and the brakes, both somewhat serious.
2. Dovi says they also suffered a technical problem with the rear suspension of his bike causing big problems with corner entry (vibration). Both Cal and A Esp mentioned Dovi blowing by them on the straight but giving up the position in the corners, wash rinse repeat...seems to support what Dovi claims.

Cal somewhat unhappy with the bike while A Esp was very frustrated with the lack of straight line pace.

BTW, I thought you had the video pass?

JPSLotus · Jun 27, 2015

J4rn0 said:
These racing episodes, one could discuss them forever -- little use in that. The real news is something else:

- Lorenzo vs Rossi is really a matter of tires: when the tire body is harder that suits Vale better, a softer construction gives the advantage to Jorge.

- Marquez is back. Using last year's chassis with the 2015 swingarm has solved the problems for him, and even if he was denied the win at Assen by a stellar and astute Rossi, we're going to see him at the front always from now on, -- even if the technical advantage he enjoyed last season seems gone.

Except both riders were on Soft-Medium. So that advantage advantage J-Lo has didn't materialize today.

MurderMac is back? lol You make it sound as if he was in the wilderness of the grid battling it out with Nicky Hayden for P20. In case you didn't notice, he never really went away...till he crashed of his own stupidity the past few races. Mind you, his banzai stunt at the end today, if he had crashed, can you imagine how hysterical that would have been? Right in sight of the finish line. I hope that happens to him before the season ends.

J4rn0 · Jun 27, 2015

double

J4rn0 · Jun 27, 2015

Jumkie said:
.....................

.............

Anyway, back to the racing.

What's up with Dovi?

For Dovi, it seems a string of bad luck since Mugello. This time his seat went loose or broke, they said.
There is no denying that these last two tracks showed kind of weaker Ducatis, but that could be just the nature of the tracks.

J4rn0 · Jun 27, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Except both riders were on Soft-Medium. So that advantage advantage J-Lo has didn't materialize today.

...............

That's another matter; what I was speaking of is the relative stiffness or flexibility of the tire body, the structure, which is the base on which the various super-soft, soft, medium or hard and extra-hard compounds are applied. What makes Bridgestone choose to bring to a specific track tires with one type of body rigidity or another, I really don't know -- surely there must be some technical reason, as they should have no interest in manipulating the duel between Rossi and Lorenzo. Stoner also preferred the stiff construction, like Rossi btw.

Keshav · Jun 27, 2015

Jumkie said:
I certainly do, when the person rather than conceding digs in to the untenable position.

That's hilarious dude. Who doesn't think their opinions here are the god-given truth? Very few, and you're not among them. You just spend the last week debating the Rossi-Ducati era, and from my vantage point, you thought you were as right as the other guy presenting his position. (BTW, I enjoyed the debate, though your posts were a bit lazy, Heisman, Budiost, and Michael didn't state a point then when asked to substantiate it replied, well you go look it up yourself. Newsflash Kesh, we ALLL think we are right, not just me!

And to contrast that, several members have come back decidedly for the banter and .... talking. Not sure if you've been paying attention, but when people think differently about an incident, and we always do, arguments happen. What gets me about this point of yours is that you have more than your share of participating in insults and snide remarks, and as I said before, I guess its only bad when others are doing it, right? You were a participant in THEE most epic "Bile, bitterness, unrelenting snakinesspersonal attacks and insults" events ever on this forum! Of all the episodes that can be described this way, that one was the worst! And it still hurts me that this was aired out here. Which frankly I would still like to forget. Seems a bit rich to take the high moral ground now.

Edit: and if you wish to plead your case with specifics or rehash the incident, I'd rather you PM me.

Good times, the best in my life. Its been said before, part of the problem is that tone doesn't convey well on typed words, half the time I'm laughing while others are taking the words so seriously. People get bent so easily.

Untenable is in the eye of the beholder.

True - we all think we are right - but we don't all resort to insults and abuse (in lieu of superior debating skills) in a vain attempt to bludgeon the other person into submission. In the past - when pushed over the edge by morons (no longer posting here) I have been really nasty; but never without being much prior provocation. I would love to have the zen-like calm and ability to deftly deflect unprovoked hostility that some people possess - but alas it's not within my grasp. I do the best I can.

As regards any rehashing - that is a dead episode involving someone who's no longer posting here and he and I have (to the very best of our abilities) made our peace. No reason to open old wounds.

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

levigarrett said:
Jum;

1. Dani says bike 2 had some issues with the clutch and the brakes, both somewhat serious.
2. Dovi says they also suffered a technical problem with the rear suspension of his bike causing big problems with corner entry (vibration). Both Cal and A Esp mentioned Dovi blowing by them on the straight but giving up the position in the corners, wash rinse repeat...seems to support what Dovi claims.

Cal somewhat unhappy with the bike while A Esp was very frustrated with the lack of straight line pace.

BTW, I thought you had the video pass?

Thanks for the info. I figured it was technical gremlins. Cal isn't happy with the bike? NO way.

I do have the vid pass, just hardly use it. I'm mobile. This tapatalk is the devil's work.

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

J4rn0 said:
These racing episodes, one could discuss them forever -- little use in that. The real news is something else:

- Lorenzo vs Rossi is really a matter of tires: when the tire body is harder that suits Vale better, a softer construction gives the advantage to Jorge.

- Marquez is back. Using last year's chassis with the 2015 swingarm has solved the problems for him, and even if he was denied the win at Assen by a stellar and astute Rossi, we're going to see him at the front always from now on, -- even if the technical advantage he enjoyed last season seems gone.

Wait, I've been saying this exact ..... Its the tires, check.

About Marc, its solved his problems? Uhm...did you see him try to torpedo Rossi? His problem IS he rides like an ......., and its caused him to crash a few times. I never bought into this ........ that there was something wrong with the bike, period. And him reverting to the previous chassis means dik if with the new chassis he was in the exact same position as today. No?

michaelm · Jun 27, 2015

levigarrett said:
You have to watch the whole post presser. If you don't have the video pass call me. I'll give you my info so you can check it out. It's a good one.

I was actually surprised to hear Marc claim to be the victim in this case. Rossi was clearly ahead and was going to win but Marc absolutely doesn't see it that way. They're both playing civil with one another on camera but as this continues, I think we'll see open warfare between these two if/when the next incident takes place.

It would be amusing if it didn't perhaps display his mindset. He makes a torpedo move which ensures Rossi can't make the corner, contacts Rossi, then thinks Rossi will lose a place for going off track? Officialdom did consider his last corner move on Jorge last year at Jerez to be legitimate, wherein lies the problem I guess.

I don't think either Rossi or MM have any cause for complaint given historical precedent where last corner torpedo moves are concerned, although Rossi's on Gibernau was dirty but not really dangerous in my view. The amusing thing is MM looking to win by a call from officialdom in the circumstance. Even more so because of his opponent; Dorna might be looking at him to be the next Rossi long term, but the current one is still there and riding rather well, and will in no way concede to him as far as ruthlessness goes, while being a little safer about it.

JPSLotus · Jun 27, 2015

J4rn0 said:
That's another matter; what I was speaking of is the relative stiffness or flexibility of the tire body, the structure, which is the base on which the various super-soft, soft, medium or hard and extra-hard compounds are applied. What makes Bridgestone choose to bring to a specific track tires with one type of body rigidity or another, I really don't know -- surely there must be some technical reason, as they should have no interest in manipulating the duel between Rossi and Lorenzo. Stoner also preferred the stiff construction, like Rossi btw.

There's always a technical reason for why they bring whatever compounds they choose to a race weekend.

But the thing I've always been suspicious of in general with tire compounds is, how does anyone really know they are on the up and up? It really wouldn't take much effort to hand off some tire compounds to the right riders to spice things up. Tolerance window can be increased or decreased as needed by just a little bit so it can just be chalked up as nothing significant.

Mick D · Jun 27, 2015

JPSLotus said:
But the thing I've always been suspicious of in general with tire compounds is, how does anyone really know they are on the up and up? It really wouldn't take much effort to hand off some tire compounds to the right riders to spice things up. Tolerance window can be increased or decreased as needed by just a little bit so it can just be chalked up as nothing significant.

Doesn't the random allocation of tyres prevent this scenario?

michaelm · Jun 27, 2015

Keshav said:
Yeah - he wasn't the soul of politeness. Like Geo said, the craziness can be catching. I know folks have pushed my buttons a few times and I regretted giving them the satisfaction of acknowledging it.

Personal insults directed at me don't fuss me overly. I received far more on the other forum on which I was posting; to an extent it is proof you are winning the argument.

I think Zoot actually went well beyond the pale because he was insulting someone's kids, I don't think many in any circumstance will take that with equanimity.

I regret when I had my falling out with Roger which was over a thread I thought was ludicrous, where Stoner was being damned on the basis that his behaviour was the same as that of a cart racer in a video clip some troll had posted. I thought this was ludicrous and stupid, but I don't think my intellectual conceit was worth falling out with someone I basically liked in retrospect.

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Except both riders were on Soft-Medium. So that advantage advantage J-Lo has didn't materialize today.

MurderMac is back? lol You make it sound as if he was in the wilderness of the grid battling it out with Nicky Hayden for P20. In case you didn't notice, he never really went away...till he crashed of his own stupidity the past few races. Mind you, his banzai stunt at the end today, if he had crashed, can you imagine how hysterical that would have been? Right in sight of the finish line. I hope that happens to him before the season ends.

i think the tires favor one over the other, and the fact they were on the same tires indicates the conditions favored Rossi, at least that's what I'm thinking happened. I'm still trying to work out the tire angle, but I'm more inclined to believe the issue is there. Also, very important, Rossi loves Assen while Lorenzo decidedly has contrasting results to VR at this particular track.

Spot on regarding Marc! I swear I don't get why so many people have bought into this idea that he has been hampered or a drift out at sea for whatever reason. He has been in the hunt for a win or a podium EVEN the races he crashed. And for god sake today he deserved another carbon copy CRASH (and would have if there was a God), the ONLY thing that saved him was using Rossi as a burn (albeit ever so lightly), and the stupid luck that his trajectory was pointed at tarmac after the collision. Back? Uhm...from where is my question, as you have rightfully retorted. Back from riding on the edge? NO. Back from braking (or lack of braking) into the back of riders? NO. Back from competing for wins and podiums? NO. So where is he coming back from? I tell you, the Ministry of K-Talkin Points is strong, stronger than we think. They (pundits) imput the message into the echo chamber dispensing machine and many unwittingly echo the narrative. "He is back." Uhm, where did I get that idea? Where did he go? How exactly did the 2014 "solve" his "problem"? If on the 2015 chassis, he...broke too deep colliding with the Yamaha rider in front of him (Catalunya). Correct me if I'm wrong, BUT didn't he do this exact same thing on the 2015 chassis TODAY? Hahaha, ah man, who needs to wait for the new season of Game of Thrones, GP punditry is all the fantasy one can take.

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

michaelm said:
Personal insults directed at me don't fuss me overly. I received far more on the other forum on which I was posting; to an extent it is proof you are winning the argument.

I think Zoot actually went well beyond the pale because he was insulting someone's kids, I don't think many in any circumstance will take that with equanimity.

I regret when I had my falling out with Roger which was over a thread I thought was ludicrous, where Stoner was being damned on the basis that his behaviour was the same as that of a cart racer in a video clip some troll had posted. I thought this was ludicrous and stupid, but I don't think my intellectual conceit was worth falling out with someone I basically liked in retrospect.

You restore my faith in humanity.

(though by 7pm tonight, my faith will be all gone)

This forum is fascinating!

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

Mick D said:
Doesn't the random allocation of tyres prevent this scenario?

Well, if you believe Kropo, this exact .... was happening in Wsbk. So some random allocations are more random for some than others.

Here is what I've always contended. I believe the allocation is random in GP, but I suspect the tire spec is made to favor some rather than others, and not by coincidence. I had wanted a single tire supplier and spec tire during the tire war UNTIL I realized the spec tire could simply mean everyone now has to use the Golden Boy's preference. You get what I'm saying. I originally wanted a spec tire because I thought it would level the playing field, that is everyone has to use the same tire. BUT what happens if that SPEC is the spec of a particular rider that happens to be favored by Dorna, and who's cues are to be paid more attention to than others? Which is what I suspect. Conspiracy theory? Yes. Does it make the thought unrealistic? Well...look around at the world. What does it tell us?

Mick D · Jun 27, 2015

Jumkie said:
I believe the allocation is random in GP, but I suspect the tire spec is made to favor some rather than others, and not by coincidence. I had wanted a single tire supplier and spec tire during the tire war UNTIL I realized the spec tire could simply mean everyone now has to use the Golden Boy's preference. You get what I'm saying. I originally wanted a spec tire because I thought it would level the playing field, that is everyone has to use the same tire. BUT what happens if that SPEC is the spec of a particular rider that happens to be favored by Dorna, and who's cues are to be paid more attention to than others? Which is what I suspect. Conspiracy theory? Yes. Does it make the thought unrealistic? Well...look around at the world. What does it tell us?

Certainly a spec tyre will favour some over others... the question of whether or not the spec is manipulated to skew results is unanswerable ATM, unless you are behind the door. The bottom line seems to be that a tyre war and a spec tyre both introduce the possibility of manipulation and a perfectly unbiased system has yet to be defined.

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

Well my gripe during the tire war was that if your manufacturer wasn't giving u the good stuff (surely I don't need to explain what I mean) then no matter how awesome u ride, u just weren't gonna win. Then, when Bstones were better the MFs already enjoying nearly a decade of the good stuff were not made to compete on a tire that sometimes was inferior. This predictable paradigm in retrospect wasn't immediately clear in what might happen under a spec tire. Do we always need to be in the cabinet meeting to know war was for oil interests?

Mick D · Jun 27, 2015

Jumkie said:
Spot on regarding Marc! I swear I don't get why so many people have bought into this idea that he has been hampered or a drift out at sea for whatever reason.

Hmmm, could it be that peoples expectations based on 2014 were that MM would continue to be a dominant, frequently winning rider 2015? Fans and pundits alike are trying to account for the anomaly and have a limited number of factors to consider: 1. MM has lost the plot (or never actually had it...!); 2. the RCV has become, relatively to itself last year and/or to the Yamaha this year, less capable; 3. spec tyres are more biased towards strengths of the Yamaha this year; and 4. the Yamahas are actually a .... load better this year relative to the RCVs.

Some peeps are just to simple to understand nuance (or choose to ignore it to further their own agenda(s)) and the fact that multiple factors are at play. They have only enough intellect to see one cause then take off down that rabbit hole like a rocket sled on rails!!!

Mick D · Jun 27, 2015

Jumkie said:
Do we always need to be in the cabinet meeting to know war was for oil interests?

In general, YES! The nuance here is that although oil is a big deal, its not the only deal... Sometimes it was more to line the pockets of friends who manufacture arms, sometimes to acquiesce to the needs of Saudi Arabia or Israel, sometimes to help their military contractor friends like Halliburton. You DO need to be in the room to know for sure...

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