Assen TT - Rnd 8 2015 - SPOILERS

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

Mick D said:
Hmmm, could it be that peoples expectations based on 2014 were that MM would continue to be a dominant, frequently winning rider 2015? Fans and pundits alike are trying to account for the anomaly and have a limited number of factors to consider: 1. MM has lost the plot (or never actually had it...!); 2. the RCV has become, relatively to itself last year and/or to the Yamaha this year, less capable; 3. spec tyres are more biased towards strengths of the Yamaha this year; and 4. the Yamahas are actually a .... load better this year relative to the RCVs.

Some peeps are just to simple to understand nuance (or choose to ignore it to further their own agenda(s)) and the fact that multiple factors are at play. They have only enough intellect to see one cause then take off down that rabbit hole like a rocket sled on rails!!!

Classic example of how you and the recent "We wish ya'll would respect each other, because look at us" brigade would understand that when u go reply like this more often than not you're gonna get horns. While u jumped in how poor'o Kropo was a victim, he regularity replied like this with his air of superiority and when I replied in kind...Jumkie was the big bad wolf.

Ok some I'm the ....... because I can't distinguish the nuance of several factors at play? Well here is a factor, Marc made mistakes and crashed. The same type of mistake that he did today and didn't crash last couple seasons. The scoreline will look like he was great today, runner up. BUT few of these fools will look to last two seasons and look at the scoreline and realize Marc was miraculously not crashing when like today he should have caused a suicide murder. Nuance, who needs nuance when the reality of the situation has been staring us in the face my friend?

Excuse me, I see a rabbit hole, gotta go.

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

Mick D said:
In general, YES! The nuance here is that although oil is a big deal, its not the only deal... Sometimes it was more to line the pockets of friends who manufacture arms, sometimes to acquiesce to the needs of Saudi Arabia or Israel, sometimes to help their military contractor friends like Halliburton. You DO need to be in the room to know for sure...

Wait, u must have been in the closed door meeting. I didn't read that it was to maintain our industrial military complex. Well of course it was for that too, .... I could list u 10 reasons before I'd list the ........ reason to "liberate" people. So let me get this straight Mick, u say I would need to be in the closed door meeting because I contend my conspiracy theories of the world, GP particularly but then u go listing a conspiracy of your own? Haha what am I missing here?

michaelm · Jun 27, 2015

J4rn0 said:
That's another matter; what I was speaking of is the relative stiffness or flexibility of the tire body, the structure, which is the base on which the various super-soft, soft, medium or hard and extra-hard compounds are applied. What makes Bridgestone choose to bring to a specific track tires with one type of body rigidity or another, I really don't know -- surely there must be some technical reason, as they should have no interest in manipulating the duel between Rossi and Lorenzo. Stoner also preferred the stiff construction, like Rossi btw.

I think you are right, I don't see any reason why Bridgestone would be manipulating the tyres to suit a particular rider in current circumstances, particularly given that Dorna would appear to have no current leverage on them.

I believe Valentino does have some role with them, but from where I sit (with a prejudice in favour of Jorge) Bridgestone seem to have come up with a tyre that suits one set of conditions which Jorge can utilise better, and another for a different set of conditions which Valentino uses better. What I am not so sure of now is what determines the availability of the tyre spec on a given weekend; if both tyres were available to all riders at all times then there could be absolutely no cause for complaint.

Mick D · Jun 27, 2015

Jumkie said:
1. Classic example of how you and the recent "We wish ya'll would respect each other, because look at us" brigade would understand that when u go reply like this more often than not you're gonna get horns. While u jumped in how poor'o Kropo was a victim, he regularity replied like this with his air of superiority and when I replied in kind...Jumkie was the big bad wolf.

Ok some I'm the ....... because I can't distinguish the nuance of several factors at play? Well here is a factor, Marc made mistakes and crashed. The same type of mistake that he did today and didn't crash last couple seasons. The scoreline will look like he was great today, runner up. BUT few of these fools will look to last two seasons and look at the scoreline and realize Marc was miraculously not crashing when like today he should have caused a suicide murder. Nuance, who needs nuance when the reality of the situation has been staring us in the face my friend?

Excuse me, I see a rabbit hole, gotta go.

Actually only one tiny bit of my response was directed at you personally, most of it was a general comment on everyone involved in the discussion, here or elsewhere... I believe you do see and understand nuance, you just choose to ignore it to further your position(s).

Mick D · Jun 27, 2015

Jumkie said:
Wait, u must have been in the closed door meeting. I didn't read that it was to maintain our industrial military complex. Well of course it was for that too, .... I could list u 10 reasons before I'd list the ........ reason to "liberate" people. So let me get this straight Mick, u say I would need to be in the closed door meeting because I contend my conspiracy theories of the world, GP particularly but then u go listing a conspiracy of your own? Haha what am I missing here?

I guess you are missing the fact that unless you are BEHIND the door you are only espousing theories... As I did.

Mick D · Jun 27, 2015

MM from Crash.net:

"...what I did I think was the perfect lap because I go in [to the chicane] and stopped the bike to be on the correct line, to close later the space for Valentino for the second chicane [exit].

“But ok, I think when we had the contact we were already really in the same position – I was not really back and I think he already saw me.

“But I think I can be proud about this last lap because I gained 0.4 and I did the perfect chicane with what I planned yesterday,” he added.

“What I know is I did the correct [thing]. What I already say, I think I did the perfect last lap, last corner.

“I prepared like this and when I stopped the bike I had the place and then we had the contact and we already know in that chicane it is really tight, so I know that I did the correct.”

Does he actually believe the words coming from his mouth? Is his perception or vision THAT bad!!?? LOL!

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

Mick D said:
I guess you are missing the fact that unless you are BEHIND the door you are only espousing theories... As I did.

And so easily dismissed right?

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

Mick D said:
Actually only one tiny bit of my response was directed at you personally, most of it was a general comment on everyone involved in the discussion, here or elsewhere... I believe you do see and understand nuance, you just choose to ignore it to further your position(s).

Ah I see, since it was just a dig at me buried in an otherwise general statement I should have just glossed over it. I think I'll employ that tactic buddy. Then when if someone calls me on it I'll reply, well I had a rather insightful post going except for that tiny lil'o insult I threw your way. Move along, nothing to see here. Got it.

How about we play this game. When we say a snide remark, let's not pretend we are on moral high ground to call foul when others do it. That basically was my intent in this conversation. Ok buddy?

Talpa · Jun 27, 2015

WTF

Jums you performing CPR on this place? Seems to have worked, I see a lot have dusted off and opened the old sarcophagus!

Certainly a race worthy of discussion, with what was a great race long battle at the front-of course now overshadowed by the antics of el niño loco.

He lost a lot of respect from me and I'm sure a lot of the fans after the very 'Stoner' and Biaggi like bad sport post race comments, only this was ALL his fault-never, ever, never, ever was he going to make that pass with Rossi on the last lap of the race. Funniest thing was when Rossi turned around after dirt tracking with what seemed like a 'is that all you've got' look much like Argentina, and Marc was left mid-chicane with his hand in the air wondering why is ramming strategy didn't work!

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

Mick D said:
MM from Crash.net:

"...what I did I think was the perfect lap because I go in [to the chicane] and stopped the bike to be on the correct line, to close later the space for Valentino for the second chicane [exit].

“But ok, I think when we had the contact we were already really in the same position – I was not really back and I think he already saw me.

“But I think I can be proud about this last lap because I gained 0.4 and I did the perfect chicane with what I planned yesterday,” he added.

“What I know is I did the correct [thing]. What I already say, I think I did the perfect last lap, last corner.

“I prepared like this and when I stopped the bike I had the place and then we had the contact and we already know in that chicane it is really tight, so I know that I did the correct.”

Does he actually believe the words coming from his mouth? Is his perception or vision THAT bad!!?? LOL!

Mick, when I read Kropo write some stuff about Marc's antics I have the same reaction as you did in your analysis. i find it interesting, that I'm the bad guy, because as the rationale goes, he knows better. But you're mocking a double world champion. Double standard?

Here is another interesting parallel, when Kevin Cameron, Dennis Noyes, and David Emmett all piggybacked on each other's theory (some might call it a conspiracy theory) that Nakamoto was full of .... about the engine being problematic (Cameron came short of calling him a F-ing liar, Noyes said he was taking towing company line "circling the wagons", and Emmett said...well it to much to list) while they all agreed Marc's assessment of it was absolutely correct. Their rationale being Marc is a double champ, so he knows what he's talking about. Yet here u are, mocking his assessment. Weird.

Is there a lesson here? If there is, I think it may be missed.

You may find my next statement as crazy as Marc's assessment of his "perfect" lap. But I could argue he was right as it appears Rossi had planned a contingency ahead of time for such an event. In fact, my initial impression was that Rossi had drawn him in to deploy a similar tactic Marc did at the Corkscrew. Outlandish? Marc said he had "planned" his entry into the chicane way before the race. I consider Rossi twice as savvy as Marc, with a plethora of experience and more importantly, guile to do something as insane as I'm hypothesizing here. And I wasn't alone in thinking perhaps he had some forethought in today's incident (see MichaelM and J4rno's). I could make a case Marc put in a perfect lap and Rossi executed a reverse Jerez05, I won't of course because that would be too crazy. But I don't think it would be outside the realm of possibility. Anyway, I'll leave it up to Kropo to tell us Marc was right, and or that the bike just didn't let him execute the "pass" he could have if only that damn RCV complied.

Jumkie · Jun 27, 2015

Talpa said:
Jums you performing CPR on this place? Seems to have worked, I see a lot have dusted off and opened the old sarcophagus!

Certainly a race worthy of discussion, with what was a great race long battle at the front-of course now overshadowed by the antics of el niño loco.

He lost a lot of respect from me and I'm sure a lot of the fans after the very 'Stoner' and Biaggi like bad sport post race comments, only this was ALL his fault-never, ever, never, ever was he going to make that pass with Rossi on the last lap of the race. Funniest thing was when Rossi turned around after dirt tracking with what seemed like a 'is that all you've got' look much like Argentina, and Marc was left mid-chicane with his hand in the air wondering why is ramming strategy didn't work!

Great take Talps. Haha I wish I could have seen Rossi's expression when he looked back.

Resurrecting Powy? Nah man, I think I'm scaring people away with my antics.

Gaz · Jun 27, 2015

This forum is indeed interesting once again ...........

Having not watched a full race in a while (the vagaries of sh*t tv coverage and living in the boonies) I will not pretend to know how the season has been in terms of riding capability as I simply survive on internet discussion and the odd small video clip (to lazy to download the full races as really interest has waned as I find other pursuits).

But for me, I suspect that this is the race that will be remembered in years to come where the congenial Rossi/Marquez relationship was lost and the Rossi versus 'any number of challenger' relationship started.

That move (and I have only really watched the move) was Rossi making a loud and serious statement to Marquez that no matter what you have to give me, I am better prepared and will happily take what you have and win in the arena of public recognition and adulation. Many riders on the receiving end of the Marquez move would have blown up but Rossi did what he does better than any others and smiled congenially about it whilst gently stoking fires that have burned in the challenger for some time.

Interesting to me has been the reactions across many forums as throughout the year with the success of Rossi we have seen a small number of the mindless boppers posting but with this one move in many forums there are many considered heads who have gone from Marquez admirers to 'Marquez the ....... nearly took Rossi out. I suspect that in the eyes of many we now have the new villain that the sport seems to so need and that which has been missing in a competitive sense since the retirement of Stoner.

Interesting times ahead.

As for the move, well as people have said I personally have no doubt that Marquez did exactly what Rossi wanted him to do as the manner in which Rossi reacted was that of a person with an escape plan that he knew could not have been penalised in any way (and should not have been, racing incident is correct and should not be looked at differently just because one was prepared).

Marquez still intrigues me as in him we have the petulance of youth together with what seems to be the bravado of a person who rides and thinks on adrenaline. Personally I enjoy watching him but wait with apprehension as I suspect that one day he will have that moment that will challenge him mentally.

Rossi, well no fan here (many reasons) but you cannot help but admire that fact that after a number of years in the pastures, when all is good with the world he is still the undisputed benchmark.

Mick D · Jun 28, 2015

Jumkie said:
And so easily dismissed right?

Huh? Mai kow jai.

michaelm · Jun 28, 2015

Talpa said:
Jums you performing CPR on this place? Seems to have worked, I see a lot have dusted off and opened the old sarcophagus!

Certainly a race worthy of discussion, with what was a great race long battle at the front-of course now overshadowed by the antics of el niño loco.

He lost a lot of respect from me and I'm sure a lot of the fans after the very 'Stoner' and Biaggi like bad sport post race comments, only this was ALL his fault-never, ever, never, ever was he going to make that pass with Rossi on the last lap of the race. Funniest thing was when Rossi turned around after dirt tracking with what seemed like a 'is that all you've got' look much like Argentina, and Marc was left mid-chicane with his hand in the air wondering why is ramming strategy didn't work!

Similar take on this incident to you Talps, but you again ignore that Stoner had considerable justification for complaint in regard to the 2 incidents with Rossi to which you likely refer, in which Rossi's role was the reverse of his role in this one; Stoner made no mistake of his own in either incident, and his actions avoided a quite possibly serious crash in at least one of them.

Mick D · Jun 28, 2015

Jumkie said:
Ah I see, since it was just a dig at me buried in an otherwise general statement I should have just glossed over it. I think I'll employ that tactic buddy. Then when if someone calls me on it I'll reply, well I had a rather insightful post going except for that tiny lil'o insult I threw your way. Move along, nothing to see here. Got it.

How about we play this game. When we say a snide remark, let's not pretend we are on moral high ground to call foul when others do it. That basically was my intent in this conversation. Ok buddy?

I didn't see it as a dig or snide. Just a comment on the way you present your arguments. It is a valid tactic and one you wield well, basically, forcing debaters to address and acknowledge your micro-focused statements, rather than the larger more nebulous issues, plays into your hand.

Mick D · Jun 28, 2015

Jumkie said:
Mick, when I read Kropo write some stuff about Marc's antics I have the same reaction as you did in your analysis. i find it interesting, that I'm the bad guy, because as the rationale goes, he knows better. But you're mocking a double world champion. Double standard?

Here is another interesting parallel, when Kevin Cameron, Dennis Noyes, and David Emmett all piggybacked on each other's theory (some might call it a conspiracy theory) that Nakamoto was full of .... about the engine being problematic (Cameron came short of calling him a F-ing liar, Noyes said he was taking towing company line "circling the wagons", and Emmett said...well it to much to list) while they all agreed Marc's assessment of it was absolutely correct. Their rationale being Marc is a double champ, so he knows what he's talking about. Yet here u are, mocking his assessment. Weird.

Is there a lesson here? If there is, I think it may be missed.

You may find my next statement as crazy as Marc's assessment of his "perfect" lap. But I could argue he was right as it appears Rossi had planned a contingency ahead of time for such an event. In fact, my initial impression was that Rossi had drawn him in to deploy a similar tactic Marc did at the Corkscrew. Outlandish? Marc said he had "planned" his entry into the chicane way before the race. I consider Rossi twice as savvy as Marc, with a plethora of experience and more importantly, guile to do something as insane as I'm hypothesizing here. And I wasn't alone in thinking perhaps he had some forethought in today's incident (see MichaelM and J4rno's). I could make a case Marc put in a perfect lap and Rossi executed a reverse Jerez05, I won't of course because that would be too crazy. But I don't think it would be outside the realm of possibility. Anyway, I'll leave it up to Kropo to tell us Marc was right, and or that the bike just didn't let him execute the "pass" he could have if only that damn RCV complied.

I just found it funny that he thought he did everything perfect, hence the LOL... Not sure why your last paragraph would be seen as crazy.

Talpa · Jun 28, 2015

Gaz said:
This forum is indeed interesting once again ...........

Having not watched a full race in a while (the vagaries of sh*t tv coverage and living in the boonies) I will not pretend to know how the season has been in terms of riding capability as I simply survive on internet discussion and the odd small video clip (to lazy to download the full races as really interest has waned as I find other pursuits).

But for me, I suspect that this is the race that will be remembered in years to come where the congenial Rossi/Marquez relationship was lost and the Rossi versus 'any number of challenger' relationship started.

That move (and I have only really watched the move) was Rossi making a loud and serious statement to Marquez that no matter what you have to give me, I am better prepared and will happily take what you have and win in the arena of public recognition and adulation. Many riders on the receiving end of the Marquez move would have blown up but Rossi did what he does better than any others and smiled congenially about it whilst gently stoking fires that have burned in the challenger for some time.

Interesting to me has been the reactions across many forums as throughout the year with the success of Rossi we have seen a small number of the mindless boppers posting but with this one move in many forums there are many considered heads who have gone from Marquez admirers to 'Marquez the ....... nearly took Rossi out. I suspect that in the eyes of many we now have the new villain that the sport seems to so need and that which has been missing in a competitive sense since the retirement of Stoner.

Interesting times ahead.

As for the move, well as people have said I personally have no doubt that Marquez did exactly what Rossi wanted him to do as the manner in which Rossi reacted was that of a person with an escape plan that he knew could not have been penalised in any way (and should not have been, racing incident is correct and should not be looked at differently just because one was prepared).

Marquez still intrigues me as in him we have the petulance of youth together with what seems to be the bravado of a person who rides and thinks on adrenaline. Personally I enjoy watching him but wait with apprehension as I suspect that one day he will have that moment that will challenge him mentally.

Rossi, well no fan here (many reasons) but you cannot help but admire that fact that after a number of years in the pastures, when all is good with the world he is still the undisputed benchmark.

Agreed Gaz, I think many punters and experts, Rossi fans and so on have generally welcomed Marc to the fray in 13-14. And his antics during those first two seasons have been accepted as a very talented young rider on the best bike finding his feet and winning championships at the same time.

However this season it's just too much, too silly, too dangerous and now after this latest post race rant, he has almost sealed his fate. Barring catastrophe he has lost the title this year, and a lot of fans.

Jumkie · Jun 28, 2015

Talpa, Heisman and Budoist could have really used you this week.

Mike, agree about the exception to Talps take, I did notice his dig at CS; but I was too happy to see Talps back for me to point it out. Talps knows I liked Stoner, but I think we have agreed to disagree on that point long ago.

Gaz, I don't know if I've ever said this but I have often mistaken your takes for MikeM, as they sound so similar. That's a compliment btw. Great take.

digger · Jun 28, 2015

Just want to chuck this one out there.... When MM first overtook VR, Valentinos pit board had "BRK" put upon it. Next corner, Marquez went underneath him on the brakes. Anyone know what that message means? Was that a signal to let him through, or was it just coincidence?

levigarrett · Jun 28, 2015

Talpa said:
Agreed Gaz, I think many punters and experts, Rossi fans and so on have generally welcomed Marc to the fray in 13-14. And his antics during those first two seasons have been accepted as a very talented young rider on the best bike finding his feet and winning championships at the same time.

However this season it's just too much, too silly, too dangerous and now after this latest post race rant, he has almost sealed his fate. Barring catastrophe he has lost the title this year, and a lot of fans.

Glad to see you back Talps.

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