Assen Race Talk

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (masterridley @ Jul 4 2007, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with racemjunkie that the difference between the bikes especially now is negligible although from circuit to circuit someone will always have the advantage but really it's a matter of where you want to focus the drivers or the machines.

This is the part I wanted to debate here when RJ said there were no use to discuss differences between the two equal bikes.
I think the difference still is there, and noticable to be a factor in the podium positions.
No doubt the ducati, with it's screamer, is still faster in straight line, and no doubt a master of throttle controll can shoot the yamaha, with it's big bang engine, out of the corners faster. Does it make them equal? Over the long run I think it makes a pretty even playing field, but from track to track the difference are still important. We'll see later on. Allthough we can expect Yamaha to improve on power I expect to still be able to see noticable differences when we finally arrive at the long straights again.

One of the more interesting questions is to what degree Ducati can tame the screamer in the corner exits. Stop it from sliding and be softer on the chassi when they put power on. Somehow Stoner manages this pretty well, while Capirossi strugels a lot with it. Similar to Rossi/Edwards at Le Mans where they in addition to the hard tire had a hard slipper clutch. Turns out that Rossi has his manual "slipper clutch" all allong and were, kind of, able to controll the rear slides in the rain, while Edwards has gotten used to the slipper cluthc and to rely on that, and were unable to ride with any speed or confidence when it failed him.

Actually, you are both wrong babel and jumkie, the guy with the biggest tyre advantage is in fact Hayboy. His conservative style of riding has allowed him to use the same pair of slicks and the same set of wets for the season so far.

Word on the street is that he did get the hero blobs on his pegs worn at Assen.

What a guy.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jul 4 2007, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, you are both wrong babel and jumkie, the guy with the biggest tyre advantage is in fact Hayboy. His conservative style of riding has allowed him to use the same pair of slicks and the same set of wets for the season so far.

Word on the street is that he did get the hero blobs on his pegs worn at Assen.

What a guy.

Pete
that should get a response mate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 4 2007, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> that should get a response mate


Hmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder who from Rog........................

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jul 4 2007, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, you are both wrong babel and jumkie, the guy with the biggest tyre advantage is in fact Hayboy. His conservative style of riding has allowed him to use the same pair of slicks and the same set of wets for the season so far.

Word on the street is that he did get the hero blobs on his pegs worn at Assen.

What a guy.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 5 2007, 01:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is the part I wanted to debate here when RJ said there were no use to discuss differences between the two equal bikes.
I think the difference still is there, and noticable to be a factor in the podium positions.
No doubt the ducati, with it's screamer, is still faster in straight line, and no doubt a master of throttle controll can shoot the yamaha, with it's big bang engine, out of the corners faster. Does it make them equal? Over the long run I think it makes a pretty even playing field, but from track to track the difference are still important. We'll see later on. Allthough we can expect Yamaha to improve on power I expect to still be able to see noticable differences when we finally arrive at the long straights again.

One of the more interesting questions is to what degree Ducati can tame the screamer in the corner exits. Stop it from sliding and be softer on the chassi when they put power on. Somehow Stoner manages this pretty well, while Capirossi strugels a lot with it. Similar to Rossi/Edwards at Le Mans where they in addition to the hard tire had a hard slipper clutch. Turns out that Rossi has his manual "slipper clutch" all allong and were, kind of, able to controll the rear slides in the rain, while Edwards has gotten used to the slipper cluthc and to rely on that, and were unable to ride with any speed or confidence when it failed him.

So this is what you guys wanted to discuss! Got a bit lost there

I've been interested in how Stoner is able to apply the power so well and Capirossi can't. It seems that it's too much for Capirossi even with all the electronics. Capirossi says his style is more aggressive, which I guess means he isn't as smooth on the throttle as Stoner.

Being a Rossi fan you may have read the Motogenius book by Matt Oxley. Rossi talks about his time in 250's with Capirossi as a team mate. He says "When me and Loris were racing 250's for Aprilia, he used the throttle like a switch, on or off. I use more gentle control, but he was usually just as fast". I don't know if Stoner uses the throttle in a similar, smoother way like Rossi, but it wouldn't surprise me if the difference is mostly in Capirossi's ingrained style. It would be interesting to hear what the Ducati engineers have to say about the difference between Stoner and Capirossi.

I think overall Rossi and Stoners bikes are very equal, however they do have performance differences in various areas and obviously certain combinations will suit certain tracks better than others. But i do agree with RJ that the thing separating Casey and Vale in the championship has been their riding.

Of course the rider makes the difference but it also can be seen when a bike is not working well. The honda is obviously a dog because no combination of track, weather, rider or tire is getting it to win, despite being ridden by 6 past GP winners. If you need evidence that the rider makes the difference though, compare Dani to the other Honda riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 4 2007, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think overall Rossi and Stoners bikes are very equal, however they do have performance differences in various areas and obviously certain combinations will suit certain tracks better than others. But i do agree with RJ that the thing separating Casey and Vale in the championship has been their riding.

Of course the rider makes the difference but it also can be seen when a bike is not working well. The honda is obviously a dog because no combination of track, weather, rider or tire is getting it to win, despite being ridden by 6 past GP winners. If you need evidence that the rider makes the difference though, compare Dani to the other Honda riders.

Yeah Tom, but Pedrosa's aniversary of non wins (17) was July 2th!

Longer than Elias (9) Melandri (12) or Hayden (15). Almost as close as Roberts (joking), Checa´s or Nakano's (joking again)...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vale4607 @ Jul 4 2007, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So this is what you guys wanted to discuss! Got a bit lost there
Not RJ obviously.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I've been interested in how Stoner is able to apply the power so well and Capirossi can't. It seems that it's too much for Capirossi even with all the electronics. Capirossi says his style is more aggressive, which I guess means he isn't as smooth on the throttle as Stoner.

Being a Rossi fan you may have read the Motogenius book by Matt Oxley. Rossi talks about his time in 250's with Capirossi as a team mate. He says "When me and Loris were racing 250's for Aprilia, he used the throttle like a switch, on or off. I use more gentle control, but he was usually just as fast". I don't know if Stoner uses the throttle in a similar, smoother way like Rossi, but it wouldn't surprise me if the difference is mostly in Capirossi's ingrained style. It would be interesting to hear what the Ducati engineers have to say about the difference between Stoner and Capirossi.

No I never read that book but what you refer to is very interesting and strengthen my suspission. Also, Stoners good rain results and how good his bike behaves compared to Capirossis further suggest he is a very smoth rider and gain a lot on that on the current Ducati configuration.

But even if he is smooth he obviously lack some out of the curves. Hard to say if it's the bike or the rider, allthough I suspect this is the main trade off with the powerfull screamer. Regardless this is a part where better electronics might help.

my personel opinion is that Casey is new to the bike and ducati as a team and if Livio Suppo says thats how the bike works then casey can adapt quickly to the new machine without to much problem.
He is also a little bit smoother in the trottle.

Loris has been riding the duck for 5 years now and he is still used to the grunt of the 990 and the characteristics of the 990.

The way the engine electronics work is still not suiting him even though throughout the season he is definatly trying and as long as he can stay on it and bring it home he will gain more points and podiums.

Loris is my favourite rider and it will be a shame if he goes.

read it in another thread thathe has signed for the next two years with Ducati but at a lower pay.

I do sincerely hope he keeps his seat

maybe loris needs to dump the electronics & just ride the bike. worth a try. hes suckin big time right now...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jul 4 2007, 11:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, you are both wrong babel and jumkie, the guy with the biggest tyre advantage is in fact Hayboy. His conservative style of riding has allowed him to use the same pair of slicks and the same set of wets for the season so far.

Word on the street is that he did get the hero blobs on his pegs worn at Assen.

What a guy.

Pete

Pretty good there Pete.....read something about HRC turning down the electronics on Haydens bike so he was more in control, HRC doesn't need to turn down Pedrobot's electronics, he's wired with bluetooth and can do it on the fly!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 4 2007, 06:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>im with you and fish on this one.
Well of course Roger I would expect you to join and try to defend Babel on this one, afterall, it was you who said the tire was "falling apart".

Its really quiet simple, but I wouldn’t expect you to pick up on the nuance my sparring buddy. Let me water down the logic for you. What you call bringing up an “old” topic (which you and others do regularly) was to provide some reference and relevance (of previous “bias” to what we were in fact debating—which was the parity/equalness of the bikes in relation to the results. (I reall don't see how this debate was lost to some here, had they been reading carefully). I did this to show how the “bias” of a few carries over onto this idea that when Casey has won, a few “bias” fellows point to his bike/tires “advantage” (which I disagree) or some real/imagined “failure” of tires for Rossi. My point is, the riders are the difference and not the bikes, where as Babel clings to this idea that it’s the machine (but only when Casey wins (exclusively), which for me is the definition “bias”. That’s it. You see, simple.

If this were the case, then why has Babel not asserted that Casey’s tires were inferior this last race? Two of the top three positions where Michelins, so are we to believe (as some have suggested) that the Bridgestone’s were inferior and so following that logic, Casey would have beat Rossi had it not been for his tires? You see how ridiculous this sounds (especially for somebody rooting for Rossi?) Well to me, it’s just as ridiculous to make a case for this when the tables are turned. But again, despite the explanation, the logic seems to be lost to “bias”.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 4 2007, 08:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is the part I wanted to debate here when RJ said there were no use to discuss differences between the two equal bikes.
Yes, we were debating it, and once I pointed out that the bikes are equal, but not equal only when Casey wins it seems, has a peculiar stench of "bias".

i do see your point jumkie, but

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If this were the case, then why has Babel not asserted that Casey’s tires were inferior this last race? Two of the top three positions where Michelins, so are we to believe (as some have suggested) that the Bridgestone’s were inferior and so following that logic, Casey would have beat Rossi had it not been for his tires?

in another post i said" rossi ,yamaha & Michelin were supieror " mabe casey did have tyre issues for all i no, after all he did have one or two bobbles but the fact is his lap times were consistent throughout the race and he was only passed by rossi, casey also had a respectable lead over haystack . unlike when rossi <u>did</u> have tyre problems, if you couldn't see the difference than you may need to tune your tv in a bit better mate.
still it was a great race for both of us, i got to see the old rossi back and you got to see nicky on the rostrum. nice to see him also celebrating altho im sure some will say it was over the top.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 5 2007, 10:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>if you couldn't see the difference than you may need to tune your tv in a bit better mate.
Thanks buddy. I really should upgrade to a color TV, eh. Haha.

But yes, I did notice what you had said, which I thought was kinda odd coming from a "cheerleader", maybe there is hope for you yet buddy. Looks like you have been drinking some "fair and balanced" juice. That, or its becoming increasingly difficult to stay on the "its the bike" routine of rationalizations.

I was a bit satisfied that the “god of MotoGP” won in reference to thinking that with his win, I wouldn’t have to debate Babel. But I’ll be damned, I didn’t realize with Haystack’s podium would be so threatening to him (Babel) that I would have to talk about the equality of the bikes as a thinly veiled attempt by the Fish to bash on the poor old boy. Or maybe, its just a set up for if/when Casey wins, we can go back to pointing at the Ducati's top speed as the reason to explain it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jul 5 2007, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Or maybe, its just a set up for if/when Casey wins, we can go back to pointing at the Ducati's top speed as the reason to explain it.

I wonder why in crash.net they would bring it up… Maybe they just wanted to participate!

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~6~id~150694.htm

Mentioning “The next step in Yamaha's quest to overturn Ducati's MotoGP World Championship advantage”… “The Italian still has two main areas of technical weakness compared with his young Australian rival. Rossi's Michelin tyres haven't performed as well as Stoner's Bridgestones in the wet this season, while the 21-year-old's Ducati still holds the upper hand in terms of acceleration and top speed”…

Guess I got a bit lost with the Debate now!

PS. Mindless cheerleader as usual, you know me Jumkie.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 5 2007, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wonder why in crash.net they would bring it up… Maybe they just wanted to participate!

Ducati still holds the upper hand in terms of acceleration and top speed”…



even randy mamola said the ducati was by far the fastest accelerating bike on the grid, but what does he no

Oh how we miss the point. The question is, does this explain the difference in results?

Answer from some Rossi fans when he loses: Yes
Answer from some Stoner fans when he wins: No
Answer from some Rossi fans when he wins: No
Answer from some Stoner fans when he loses: Yes

For me, the final race results in relation to the difference in overall bike performance, is too close to call. For me, so far this season, whoever wins between Stoner and Rossi on any given race was the better rider that race, baring a catastrophic meltdown (imaginary failures, not included).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jul 5 2007, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh how we miss the point. The question is, does this explain the difference in results?
i think it helped with the first few races of the season down the long straights but in all fairness not every rider would have the balls to use all of that speed. as ive said before, it's a team sport with many variables so i dont think any one thing will make a win but a failing in any one thing will make a loss.