2024 Round 19 - PT Grand Prix of Thailand - Chang International Circuit

AnnoyingTwit said:

Even if Martin wins this year, if we have a Marquez championship in 2025, that to me would justify Ducati's choice.

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Yes but Bagnaia would be a homegrown 3 times world champion who with 3 titles would pretty much have to be acknowledged as one of the greats/a top 10 all time rider and the greatest Ducati rider. As a Stoner and MM fan I would not regret him failing to threepeat greatly, but I don’t have anything against him either and would have acknowledged/will acknowledge his achievement.

Ducati are terrible at man management, but also don’t like being pushed into a corner over money and may hold this against Pecco as they did against Dovi. I guess a Ducati will win anyway and Martin is a Ducati contracted rider, but the number 1 being on an Aprilia doubtless would/will hurt. Perhaps VW/Audi and the Ducati Corse sponsors don’t care about this so much particularly commercially if it is the price of having MM on the team in 2025.

michaelm said:

Martin is a Ducati contracted rider, but the number 1 being on an Aprilia doubtless would/will hurt.

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Does that really matter that much?

Muricans don't even know the #1 is reserved for the champion and if the Aprilia with #1 is running around 8th it only goes to show how good the Ducati is.

Heck, we don't even know if Jörg would run #1. Marc never used it, Valentino never used it, neither did Mir, Zarco or Fabio. Lorenzo used it only once as well.

michaelm said:

Sure, but doing so after the injury and time in the wilderness would add a touch of the Doohan narrative and give extra cachet imo to any further titles he might win.

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That's true, I mentioned in another thread months ago that I would consider Marc winning another championship one of the greatest comebacks in sport of all time.

I was just speculating how many titles Marc could've won if things had gone his way.

JFM01 said:

Does that really matter that much?

Muricans don't even know the #1 is reserved for the champion and if the Aprilia with #1 is running around 8th it only goes to show how good the Ducati is.

Heck, we don't even know if Jörg would run #1. Marc never used it, Valentino never used it, neither did Mir, Zarco or Fabio. Lorenzo used it only once as well.

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This is what I've been thinking.

AnnoyingTwit said:

Moto3 to see if Alonso can take the record for the most wins in a season in the lightweight class. I'm invested in seeing this more than perhaps the record justifies. So sue me

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See you in court!

BTW - surprised nobody corrected me on my Marquez 9 times championship gaff. Can’t make excuses about bad sleep (tho insomnia plagues me). I’m just ..... at math.

JFM01 said:

Muricans don't even know the #1 is reserved for the champion and if the Aprilia with #1 is running around 8th it only goes to show how good the Ducati is.

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Muricans is an informal and humorous term for Americans1. It is often used in an impolite way to project a sense of dislike towards the country and its inhabitants2. A conservative may use the term to express their dislike for Americans.

Is that necessary? Do you know you are on a forum run by a murican? .... you

Keshav said:

When I watch Gigi's face peering out from the throng at Parc Ferme - what I read is, his immense personal gratification in knowing that one of the greatest riders of a generation has turned his back on a contract with HRC

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I'm beginning to think GiGi has Marc's poster on his ceiling directly over his bed.

JPSLotus said:

I would argue though that Pecco is going to be under the microscope next season, and if he gets demolished, I don't know how well that's going to help his Ducati future. I think he has more riding on next season than Marc does honestly. Should they have let Martin get away? I don't know, it depends on what he does on the Aprilia.

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Feels like 2025 is going to be huge for Pecco. As bad as Marc wants another championship or two, I think the pressure is on Pecco for sure, especially if he doesn’t win it this year. Marc’s legacy is set in stone for the most part. As for Martin, Ducati was going to be questioned no matter who they kept. I’m rooting for Martin to win this year and I hope he can take the Aprilia to the next level when he gets there.

Keshav said:

See you in court!

BTW - surprised nobody corrected me on my Marquez 9 times championship gaff. Can’t make excuses about bad sleep (tho insomnia plagues me). I’m just ..... at math.

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I did, but made a mathematical typo myself which is more or less inevitable on the internet with such things. Thought I had corrected it before the editing deadline but didn’t do so successfully. I am prone to all manner of syntactical and spelling errors on an iPhone which were never a problem for me previously.

JFM01 said:

Muricans don't even know the #1 is reserved for the champion and if the Aprilia with #1 is running around 8th it only goes to show how good the Ducati is.

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Americans watching GP racing are better informed on these things than you think given how niche the product is here.

Also F1 has a vastly high viewership in the USA than MotoGP, and everyone watching knows why Max is using the #1 on his Red Bull rather than his #33.

michaelm said:

Unusually I disagree with you to some extent.

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JPSLotus said:

...., is it really a strategic blunder to sign Marc?

I disagree there bud. Phillip Island was him at his absolute finest. It vindicates everything.

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It takes ruthless objectivity to acknowledge that locking Marc out of the championship is a viable strategy. People will have a natural aversion. Though it is important to point out that Ducati already executed this strategy effectively under Paolo Ciabatti. They have Marc in check. At the end of 2024, they will have won the constructors and riders titles for 3 years in a row. They are also minting money for perhaps the first time in company history.

The biggest institutional loser as a result of Ducati's Marc-containment-strategy is Dorna. Marc is a bankable personality and prolific rider. Dorna want to keep him as close to the front as possible.

Marc's situation gives Ducati leverage, and it's not surprising that Ciabatti's dismissal and the dissolution of his talent pool coincides with the final negotiations for 2027. Marc to factory Ducati is the result of motorsport politics and complex commercial negotiations.

I only care because it can shape the way people think about the sport. Conventional wisdom is that Marc is the most successful and most deserving person to receive a seat at the factory team. To me, this looks like a repeat of 2011--an admission of guilt from the MSMA.

mylexicon said:

It takes ruthless objectivity to acknowledge that locking Marc out of the championship is a viable strategy. People will have a natural aversion. Though it is important to point out that Ducati already executed this strategy effectively under Paolo Ciabatti. They have Marc in check. At the end of 2024, they will have won the constructors and riders titles for 3 years in a row. They are also minting money for perhaps the first time in company history.

The biggest institutional loser as a result of Ducati's Marc-containment-strategy is Dorna. Marc is a bankable personality and prolific rider. Dorna want to keep him as close to the front as possible.

Marc's situation gives Ducati leverage, and it's not surprising that Ciabatti's dismissal and the dissolution of his talent pool coincides with the final negotiations for 2027. Marc to factory Ducati is the result of motorsport politics and complex commercial negotiations.

I only care because it can shape the way people think about the sport. Conventional wisdom is that Marc is the most successful and most deserving person to receive a seat at the factory team. To me, this looks like a repeat of 2011--an admission of guilt from the MSMA.

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Sure, I do now and have previously (I think) agreed with you that Marc’s riding advantage was counteracted by Gigi’s evil aero stuff. And I completely agree with you about riders such as MM and Rossi in his time having hegemony and inspiring loyalty which helps the box office. I am sure commercial considerations including VW Audi wanting to be identified with Marc played a part, but Gigi also does seem to be an outright fan. 3 successive titles with prospects of more would just about have made Bagnaia the new hegemon, as opposed to now when he has on the face of it pretty much been undermined.

mylexicon said:

It takes ruthless objectivity to acknowledge that locking Marc out of the championship is a viable strategy. People will have a natural aversion. Though it is important to point out that Ducati already executed this strategy effectively under Paolo Ciabatti. They have Marc in check. At the end of 2024, they will have won the constructors and riders titles for 3 years in a row. They are also minting money for perhaps the first time in company history.

The biggest institutional loser as a result of Ducati's Marc-containment-strategy is Dorna. Marc is a bankable personality and prolific rider. Dorna want to keep him as close to the front as possible.

Marc's situation gives Ducati leverage, and it's not surprising that Ciabatti's dismissal and the dissolution of his talent pool coincides with the final negotiations for 2027. Marc to factory Ducati is the result of motorsport politics and complex commercial negotiations.

I only care because it can shape the way people think about the sport. Conventional wisdom is that Marc is the most successful and most deserving person to receive a seat at the factory team. To me, this looks like a repeat of 2011--an admission of guilt from the MSMA.

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I have questions as to whether or not Ducati expected what we have seen out of Marc this season as he was a huge unknown coming into the season based on how last season went on the Honda...or even the season before. I think they realized the containment strategy was no longer a viable option if he had decided to .... off to Aprilia if they didn't give him a GP25 after seeing what he was doing on the GP23 relative to a much improved GP24. I mean by all accounts, I think they had expected him to settle for the Pramac ride without realizing that Campinoti and Nieto being deterring factors to a level much greater than what anyone realized at the time.

It strikes me that somehow Marc knew the hand he had and decided to deploy it after the river card had been dealt.

With regards of it being an admission of guilt for Marc going to the factory Ducati seat, in what way do you mean?

JPSLotus said:

Americans watching GP racing are better informed on these things than you think given how niche the product is here.

Also F1 has a vastly high viewership in the USA than MotoGP, and everyone watching knows why Max is using the #1 on his Red Bull rather than his #33.

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If I am not mistake 1 is the number that comes before 2 correct? It hard for me to remember with my simple murican brain.

Ironically it was an Italian who is responsible for the trend of not using the #1. I can't remember his name my mind is to simple for that.

JPSLotus said:

I have questions as to whether or not Ducati expected what we have seen out of Marc this season as he was a huge unknown coming into the season based on how last season went on the Honda...or even the season before. I think they realized the containment strategy was no longer a viable option if he had decided to .... off to Aprilia if they didn't give him a GP25 after seeing what he was doing on the GP23 relative to a much improved GP24. I mean by all accounts, I think they had expected him to settle for the Pramac ride without realizing that Campinoti and Nieto being deterring factors to a level much greater than what anyone realized at the time.

It strikes me that somehow Marc knew the hand he had and decided to deploy it after the river card had been dealt.

With regards of it being an admission of guilt for Marc going to the factory Ducati seat, in what way do you mean?

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Ducati getting away with there that Honda for one were philosophically opposed to and didn’t want ?.

michaelm said:

Ducati getting away with there that Honda for one were philosophically opposed to and didn’t want ?.

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their aero

JPSLotus said:

I have questions as to whether or not Ducati expected what we have seen out of Marc this season as he was a huge unknown coming into the season based on how last season went on the Honda...or even the season before. I think they realized the containment strategy was no longer a viable option if he had decided to .... off to Aprilia if they didn't give him a GP25 after seeing what he was doing on the GP23 relative to a much improved GP24. I mean by all accounts, I think they had expected him to settle for the Pramac ride without realizing that Campinoti and Nieto being deterring factors to a level much greater than what anyone realized at the time.

It strikes me that somehow Marc knew the hand he had and decided to deploy it after the river card had been dealt.

With regards of it being an admission of guilt for Marc going to the factory Ducati seat, in what way do you mean?

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I think Ducati were impressed by Ciabatti's work, and most of Ducati's management were on his side. I suspect Gigi wanted to work with Marc, despite Marc not having won a race, and he might have made it a precondition of his tenure with Ducati. I have no idea. I also have no idea whether Gigi's borderline unprofessional bromance with Marquez is of Gigi's own volition or whether a Spanish company was whispering in his ear.

Anyway, Gigi vs. Ciabatti is a very short battle with an obvious outcome.

The admission of guilt I'm referring to is my belief that the GPC brokered a really ugly tire deal at the end of 2007 for "safety" reasons. Ducati and Stoner fell apart. The 2011 season was their attempt to put the sport back together. Rossi and Burgess went to Ducati to fix their chassis. Stoner was given another chance at a world title by moving him to Honda. One of those moves worked out better than the other.

To me, 2025 looks like a repeat. Marquez was on track to win 10 by his 30th birthday. Ducati were allowed to "spice things up" by introducing ride height devices. Marc got injured. The ride height devices and aero started deciding race outcomes. Marc was locked out of contention. After wrecking the latter half of Marc's career, they are trying to put the sport back together again by moving Marc to factory Ducati until the 2027 rules arrive.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Muricans is an informal and humorous term for Americans1. It is often used in an impolite way to project a sense of dislike towards the country and its inhabitants2. A conservative may use the term to express their dislike for Americans.

Is that necessary? Do you know you are on a forum run by a murican? .... you

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So far about 99% of the whenever I saw this term being used it was used by Americans and 100% of the time by Liberals.

JPSLotus said:

Americans watching GP racing are better informed on these things than you think given how niche the product is here.

Also F1 has a vastly high viewership in the USA than MotoGP, and everyone watching knows why Max is using the #1 on his Red Bull rather than his #33.

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Maybe I underestimated quite how niche it is. I thought there might be a couple casual fans who only know NASCAR tuning in.

JFM01 said:

So far about 99% of the whenever I saw this term being used it was used by Americans and 100% of the time by Liberals.

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I fail to see what that has to do with saying Americans don't understand the use of the #1. Its a disrespectful thing to call us. Something I could return in kind about Italians but thats not how I roll. I don't judge people by their nationality I judge them by their actions. And by using this term and then trying to condone it I am judging you.

JFM01 said:

Maybe I underestimated quite how niche it is. I thought there might be a couple casual fans who only know NASCAR tuning in.

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Supercross, motorcross, all forms of cycling and racing here in America use #1 for the champion. As a matter of fact the first rider to use #1 after the certain rider chose not to use it in motogp was American.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I fail to see what that has to do with saying Americans don't understand the use of the #1.

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Because it's just a regular number teams can choose in the most popular motorsport championship in the states.