2023 SHARK Grand Prix de France

Mick D · May 18, 2023

mylexicon said:
) Poncharal raced "inferior" satellite bikes for years, and never really had a problem with it

It sounds as if he didn't quite find it ideal...

“...when we know the work we did to have a decent grid, we Independent teams, with Dorna, with the FIM, with the MSMA, we managed to convince the manufacturers that they had to equip us with high performance machines, that it was in their interest to promote young riders, to have a sporting policy worthy of the name, to have more feedback, what we call data feedback from more riders."

michaelm · May 18, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
Exactly right. Being around Rossi has corrupted his ability to be rational. Every other rider that had gotten a drunk driving was let go by his team. He continues to be given special treatment because it is obvious dorna is trying to make him the new golden boy. But he doesn't have it. I will never be a fan of his.

Yes, I have never warmed to him either despite his obvious talent/speed. Entitled probably covers it.

He has some sort of point in regard to this though Imo, some of us argued last year that Ducati were diluting their effort with so many competitive bike/rider combinations if their aim was to win the riders’ title. I guess they don’t care as long as a Ducati rider wins, but despite the quality of their bike last year they could have lost the the title to FQ if he had shown a tad more composure. I consider Binder on the KTM a real threat this year, and Aprilia would be with a good enough rider, which Oliveira may have been sans his early season travails. Pol I have never rated, and Vinales while fast on his day has never put a season together.

Despite the foregoing the main threat to Bagnaia’s title hopes is Bagnaia imo. If he refrained from crashing out of races not infrequently when in front on his own in a dominant position he would have won more easily last year, and would be way ahead this year as has been said.

mylexicon · May 18, 2023

Mick D said:
It sounds as if he didn't quite find it ideal...

“...when we know the work we did to have a decent grid, we Independent teams, with Dorna, with the FIM, with the MSMA, we managed to convince the manufacturers that they had to equip us with high performance machines, that it was in their interest to promote young riders, to have a sporting policy worthy of the name, to have more feedback, what we call data feedback from more riders."

Naturally, IRTA teams would rather have full factory bikes. It makes it much easier to hire riders and attract sponsors. However, too many satellite bikes poaching points from other factory teams creates a situation in which IRTA will struggle to find someone to lease them bikes. Right now, MotoGP still has 5 manufacturers so it's not a big deal, but that wasn't the case during the global credit crisis.

It's not that I think satellite teams should have inferior equipment, it's just that the backlash is somewhat laughable when you consider that sport featured inferior satellite bikes for decades, and independent teams still made money. Furthermore, the genesis of factory/satellite parity was the adoption of homologation rules by the FIM, which restricted the amount of equipment the manufacturers could run, and forcing the MSMA to more or less give full factory support to the satellites.

The notion that Bagnaia is guilty of wrong-think is absurd, and the condemnation from the sport's noblemen is equally silly.

I also think that people are misreading the competitive consequences if the GPC were to adopt inferior satellite machinery. It doesn't benefit Bagnaia. He has no trouble beating the satellite bikes if he can stay upright. The beneficiaries are his factory opponents who would inherit a half dozen points at each event.

michaelm · May 19, 2023

michaelm said:
Yes, I have never warmed to him either despite his obvious talent/speed. Entitled probably covers it.

He has some sort of point in regard to this though Imo, some of us argued last year that Ducati were diluting their effort with so many competitive bike/rider combinations if their aim was to win the riders’ title. I guess they don’t care as long as a Ducati rider wins, but despite the quality of their bike last year they could have lost the the title to FQ if he had shown a tad more composure. I consider Binder on the KTM a real threat this year, and Aprilia would be with a good enough rider, which Oliveira may have been sans his early season travails. Pol I have never rated, and Vinales while fast on his day has never put a season together.

Despite the foregoing the main threat to Bagnaia’s title hopes is Bagnaia imo. If he refrained from crashing out of races not infrequently when in front on his own in a dominant position he would have won more easily last year, and would be way ahead this year as has been said.

Got my Asparagus brothers mixed up. I meant Aleix of course, whom I rate higher than Pol but still as something of a journeyman.

#22 · May 19, 2023

Bagnaia backtracks

Bagnaia clarifies "out of context" quotes following Le Mans MotoGP controversy

mylexicon · May 19, 2023

Did a few back of the napkin calculations. Double check my match. Top 14 riders were analyzed, and condensed into top 10 lists. Surprised to see that Binder is leaning harder on the sprints than Bagnaia.

Championship Standings (Grands Prix Only)
1. Bezzechi - 76pts
2. Zarco - 58pts
3. Bagnaia - 50pts
4. Quartararo - 48pts
5. Martin - 44pts
6. Binder - 43pts
7. Rins - 38pts
8. Marini - 38pts
9. Vinales - 37pts
10. Miller - 35pts

Championship Standings (Sprint Only)
1. Bagnaia - 44pts
2. Binder - 38pts
3. Martin - 36pts
4. Bezzechi - 20pts
5. Marini - 16pts
6. Miller - 14pts
7. Vinales - 12pts
8. Espargaro - 12pts
9. Rins - 9pts
10. Zarco - 8pts

Sprint % of Total Points
1. Binder - 46.9%
2. Bagnaia - 46.8%
3. Martin - 45.0%
4. Marini - 29.6%
5. Miller - 28.6%
6. Espargaro - 28.6%
7. Vinales - 28.6%
8. Bezzechi - 20.8%
9. A Marquez - 14.6%
10. Zarco - 12.1%

michaelm · May 19, 2023

Tea

mylexicon said:
Did a few back of the napkin calculations. Double check my match. Top 14 riders were analyzed, and condensed into top 10 lists. Surprised to see that Binder is leaning harder on the sprints than Bagnaia.

Championship Standings (Grands Prix Only)
1. Bezzechi - 76pts
2. Zarco - 58pts
3. Bagnaia - 50pts
4. Quartararo - 48pts
5. Martin - 44pts
6. Binder - 43pts
7. Rins - 38pts
8. Marini - 38pts
9. Vinales - 37pts
10. Miller - 35pts

Championship Standings (Sprint Only)
1. Bagnaia - 44pts
2. Binder - 38pts
3. Martin - 36pts
4. Bezzechi - 20pts
5. Marini - 16pts
6. Miller - 14pts
7. Vinales - 12pts
8. Espargaro - 12pts
9. Rins - 9pts
10. Zarco - 8pts

Sprint % of Total Points
1. Binder - 46.9%
2. Bagnaia - 46.8%
3. Martin - 45.0%
4. Marini - 29.6%
5. Miller - 28.6%
6. Espargaro - 28.6%
7. Vinales - 28.6%
8. Bezzechi - 20.8%
9. A Marquez - 14.6%
10. Zarco - 12.1%

Interesting.

The factory KTM guys whether for reasons intrinsic to themselves or technology do seem to start well, and Bagnaia does sometimes take time to work his way even into the proper races.

I am increasingly warming to Binder, and am on the way to deciding he has true grit while Bagnaia doesn’t.

Bern1 · May 19, 2023

Aside from any snide comments, (ha ha) I found it quite amusing that Bags said that his last solo crash “absolutely wasn’t his fault.” Or something along this lines.
HA HA HA HA HA!!!

I still like him, but he is making it more and difficult!

Havey · May 19, 2023

michaelm said:
Tea

Interesting.

The factory KTM guys whether for reasons intrinsic to themselves or technology do seem to start well, and Bagnaia does sometimes take time to work his way even into the proper races.

I am increasingly warming to Binder, and am on the way to deciding he has true grit while Bagnaia doesn’t.

KTM has really changed for the 2023 model, the way I see it, the engine has been designed to produce a wide torque curve, instead of top HP. I think after Miller tested it in Valencia, he told them what it lacked compared to the Ducati.

So 2023 engines firing was changed to a big bang (2 cylinders firing together) but with the 2 firings offset by about 70* to produce a longer thrust on the tyre.

The engine tune IMO, has the front cylinders producing their torque at a lower rpm than the rear 2. You can see that long pipe that the front cylinders has, would tune it to the lower rpm, while the rear cylinders keep the short pipe for the high rpm.

As they have shown by the acceleration, off the mark at the start, and acceleration getting out of corners makes them hard to pass, so will go well on the shorter tighter circuits, as long as the circuit doesn't have any long Ducati straights then it's goodbye.

Keshav · May 20, 2023

#22 said:
Most action packed race of the yr. Gutted for Marc, he really shows again and again how good he is. 3 races out and he is the only Honda rider in Q2, and then the top 10 of the races. He really is wasted on that bike at the moment. If he were on something remotely competitive, he would be simply gone.

Equally relieved that Alex and Marini were ok. Like others here, I knew that could have been a Simoncelli level incident.

Pecco/Maverick. Agree with others here that is was a racing incident, but lay the blame towards Pecco. I don't blame him for going for the gap when Vinales ran wide, but he should have known that gap was always going to close.

It will be criminal if Augusto Fernandez loses his ride next year, he has a stong future. What I don;t get is what is all the fuss about Raul Fernandez? He did .... all on the KTM that Augusto now has last yr, and has done .... ALL on the Aprilia. All he does is moan and moan.

Talking of moaners, who watched the final 2 mins or so of P2? Aleix Espargaro cruising around on the racing line into T2 causing Marquez to stand up and run wide. He didn;t get a penalty for it, but what pisses me off the most is Aleix is the biggest ....... whiner ever if he gets blocked himself.

I read elsewhere that riders that do that get double LLP's

I don't have a reliable source for this, but have heard more than 1 or 2 rumours that another KTM owned brand, Husqvarna, are going to create a new team with 2 more factory KTM's bankrolled by Red Bull for Marquez and Acosta for 2024.

Marc doesn't need the money and if he is serious about winning more titles, I think he needs to switch. Honda are going to take years to fix that bike, just like Ducati did in 2010-2016. That said, I'd love him to stay and win with Honda, but I'm not optimistic that is going to happen.

Key difference. Marc dethroned Rossi....

Has anyone utterly dominated their team mates like Marc has? Maybe Doohan?

Stoner.

mikesbytes · May 22, 2023

#22 said:
Yep, but for some reason Raul was getting his .... sucked by the entire paddock, when Remy, as the actual 2021 Moto2 champion, got cast to SBK, and not even a factory ride!

Perhaps Raul brought more sponsorship? Or Remy's manager is a ....? I don't know the reason.

mylexicon said:
Did a few back of the napkin calculations. Double check my match. Top 14 riders were analyzed, and condensed into top 10 lists. Surprised to see that Binder is leaning harder on the sprints than Bagnaia.

Championship Standings (Grands Prix Only)
1. Bezzechi - 76pts
2. Zarco - 58pts
3. Bagnaia - 50pts
4. Quartararo - 48pts
5. Martin - 44pts
6. Binder - 43pts
7. Rins - 38pts
8. Marini - 38pts
9. Vinales - 37pts
10. Miller - 35pts

Championship Standings (Sprint Only)
1. Bagnaia - 44pts
2. Binder - 38pts
3. Martin - 36pts
4. Bezzechi - 20pts
5. Marini - 16pts
6. Miller - 14pts
7. Vinales - 12pts
8. Espargaro - 12pts
9. Rins - 9pts
10. Zarco - 8pts

Sprint % of Total Points
1. Binder - 46.9%
2. Bagnaia - 46.8%
3. Martin - 45.0%
4. Marini - 29.6%
5. Miller - 28.6%
6. Espargaro - 28.6%
7. Vinales - 28.6%
8. Bezzechi - 20.8%
9. A Marquez - 14.6%
10. Zarco - 12.1%

That's really interesting. Please post it again in another few rounds.

Havey said:
So 2023 engines firing was changed to a big bang (2 cylinders firing together) but with the 2 firings offset by about 70* to produce a longer thrust on the tyre.

Is that the same as the Ducati? I recall seeing somewhere the same or similar

Havey said:
The engine tune IMO, has the front cylinders producing their torque at a lower rpm than the rear 2. You can see that long pipe that the front cylinders has, would tune it to the lower rpm, while the rear cylinders keep the short pipe for the high rpm.

I haven't heard of different tunings for different cylinders before, I'm assuming its the camshafts but don't know if the electronics support different tunings

Havey · May 22, 2023

Havey said:
So 2023 engines firing was changed to a big bang (2 cylinders firing together) but with the 2 firings offset by about 70* to produce a longer thrust on the tyre.

Is that the same as the Ducati? I recall seeing somewhere the same or similar

Havey said:
The engine tune IMO, has the front cylinders producing their torque at a lower rpm than the rear 2. You can see that long pipe that the front cylinders has, would tune it to the lower rpm, while the rear cylinders keep the short pipe for the high rpm.

I haven't heard of different tunings for different cylinders before, I'm assuming its the camshafts but don't know if the electronics support different tunings

Yes same as the Ducati except that the KTM is a 86* V4, so it probably is different to the 70* that Ducati run.
I suspect that, if they are changing the exhaust length, then they would change the valve timing and the inlet tract length also.

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2023 SHARK Grand Prix de France

Mick D

michaelm

mylexicon

michaelm

#22

mylexicon

michaelm

Bern1

Havey

Keshav

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Havey

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