2017 Gran Premio Motul de la Comunitat Valenciana

Mick D said:

I have no doubt that Ducati is happy. I have great doubt in another retarded nostrodamus prediction.

Click to expand...

Call it retarded if you want, but isn't predictions what we do every week when we tip who may win?

Theo said:

So basically you are saying Lorenzo is another Rossi.

Click to expand...

I don't know if he's another Rossi,he's never going to be that popular with the masses anyway,for me he started acting like a dick when he got involved in all that Rossi/Marquez .... back in 2015,remember his thumbs down gestures on the podium?,he didn't need to involve himself the way he did and now he seems to have turned into a right bloody prima donna who thinks he knows better than everyone else.He should have just let Dovi past ,Dovi was never going to win that race anyway,he probably would have crashed sooner than he did pushing too hard to get near the front and Lorenzo would have done his image a huge favour,instead he comes out of it looking like a right .... but he doesn't seem to care anyway.I hope Dovi pisses all over him again next season,karma's a bitch and i reckon Lorenzo's gonna get his ass bitten.

Jumkie said:

I know you're all about tl:dr, but below you will find some interesting words.

I think what you should have said when posting your link above was: 'For those of you 'gullible enough' to be interested in actual corporate 'misinformation'... as I see some have liked your post, here is a link that may unmask your naivete.




Translation: what you heard was a corporate public relations dog and pony show. The management issued talking points to shield their image exactly as I've been saying.


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Click to expand...

As I posted earlier in this thread, imo the main thing which would have exonerated Lorenzo would be the riders having an agreement between themselves, which now seems unlikely if Lorenzo found it necessary to explain the nature of their agreement to Dovi after the race.

You are being a little selective yourself however, in that in recent times you have regarded David Emmett as a hack promulgating the Dorna/Carmelo party line when you don't agree with his narrative, not that I necessarily disagree with your view of latter day Krop btw.

JPSLotus said:

I think MM's goal is to break the 7/9 title's of Rossi before he leaves HRC. Just my suspicion personally.

Say he wins the next 3 consecutive titles, that would have him tied at 27 years old. He could break Rossi's premier class number at 28 years old, then it would leave him free to jump ship. My guess is HRC will do anything they can to see him break that number on the Repsol Honda as the ultimate middle finger for the 2003 debacle.

Click to expand...

You think team VRDorna will sit idly by as Marquez ecplises the sun god? Not likely. Once VR retires and runs a team he will be by far the most influential and powerful figure in the sport. Poncheral has a contract with Yamaha? Hahaha. Dorna has rules governing the number of slots. More laughter, when have pesky rules ever been an impediment. Team VR will be factory spec and Michelin will be camped out in the garage whispering in Rossi’s ear. Marquez will no longer benefit from favourable mid season tire switches, he will receive the softest marshmellow tires imaginable.

With the current Ducati controversy, what’s the bet Lorenzo gets a slot on team VR, at minimum for his development abilities. If not maybe Zarco or pretty much whoever is hot property will be lining up to get a gig. This is when Marquez will face his hardest competition and then we will see if he is truly able to work miracles or if he is just as easily manipulated as those before him. I just can’t see him strolling nochulantly past 9 times at 27 years of age being congratuated by Uccio and uncle Ezzy in park ferme while King Rossi sulks in the corner.

michaelm said:

You are being a little selective yourself however, in that in recent times you have regarded David Emmett as a hack promulgating the Dorna/Carmelo party line when you don't agree with his narrative, not that I necessarily disagree with your view of latter day Krop btw.

Click to expand...

Way ahead of you friend, I thought about adding a disclaimer; however I purposefully decided against it for this reason: if a person can't distinguish between me calling out Krops for being too chummy with DORNA versus (note) his description of a press conference where Lorenzo's ........ claims that played out on SCREEN for ALL of us to SEE matched (despite or in spite of Krop's interpretation) required disclaimer of the source, then I have no business trying to reason with such a person, apart from my omission being a convenient way to suss out those not making the distinction.

I don't think my calculation is wrong.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

Way ahead of you friend, I thought about adding a disclaimer; however I purposefully decided against it for this reason: if a person can't distinguish between me calling out Krops for being too chummy with DORNA versus (note) his description of a press conference where Lorenzo's ........ claims that played out on SCREEN for ALL of us to SEE matched (despite or in spite of Krop's interpretation) required disclaimer of the source, then I have no business trying to reason with such a person, apart from my omission being a convenient way to suss out those not making the distinction.

I don't think my calculation is wrong.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Click to expand...

As I thought I said, if Lorenzo had to explain to Dovi after the race what their agreement was then there fairly obviously wasn't any agreement with Dovi.

I am doing what I always do, attempting to sift evidence both ways, with a pre-existing prejudice in favour of Lorenzo of course which I will forsake as the evidence accumulates, which I am fairly close to doing now.

On this occasion the anti-Lorenzo view is the Nick Harris/Krop/Dorna narrative was all I was saying, but of course even they can be speaking the truth on occasion.

michaelm said:

As I thought I said, if Lorenzo had to explain to Dovi after the race what their agreement was then there fairly obviously wasn't any agreement with Dovi.

I am doing what I always do, attempting to sift evidence both ways, with a pre-existing prejudice in favour of Lorenzo of course which I will forsake as the evidence accumulates, which I am fairly close to doing now.

On this occasion the anti-Lorenzo view is the Nick Harris/Krop/DORNA narrative was all I was saying, but of course even they can be speaking the truth on occasion.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how Dorna figures in here.

Though I agree that Krops/Dorna (and Harris) by virtue of being Rossi-centric have historically been "anti-Lorenzo" in their view, I don’t particularly think this narrative applies with what we witnessed from Lorenzo.

I've given Lorenzo much props throughout the years, particularly this season at Ducati; but I see his behavior the last two races as an affront to Dovi, and thus I cannot stomach. Dovi is not cut from the same cloth as most of the characters in MotoGP, he far more special as a man than a rider. For Lorenzo to treat Dovi in this way, in the most important and fluid moment of his professional career, is unforgivable. As I said, Lorenzo rode the last two races as if it was a foregone conclusion that the championship was already decided (to my amazement, mirroring much of the sentiment expressed on the forum by supposed members who "understand" that it's not over until it's over.) The greatest example of this being true about sport is the 2006 championship, which if you care to scroll back, was a similar sentiment expressed here back then. The miraculous was pulled off, because it was possible. But lots of things have to go right and wrong, in this case, as I've said repeatedly, Pedrosa thumbed the balance in Marc's favor, Lorenzo decidedly thumbed the scale 'against' Dovi.

Go back and read the stuff people are posting here, including Lorenzo's pre-event statement, much of it follows this defeatist sentiment: well Marc isn't going to crash, a mechanical is more likely but lighting won't strike twice, he almost did crash! Well Dovi wasn't going win, even my friend Arrabi, whose opinion I consider as close to the Word of God, suggesting Pedrosa's race was inconsequential when asked to comment on Honda team orders. Inconsequential? The man sat comfortably back between Marc and the Ducatis for .... sake, then challenged for the win immediately after Marc went through the gravel! That's exactly what Marc needed to happen in case he lost concentration for a '2nd' time and crashed out! Then there's people saying, Dovi didn’t have the pace to win, he looked tired, Lorenzo owns Valencia (except Jlo won at bunch of other tracks over the years, yet was .... at all of them this year). WTF am I reading here? If Zarco and Pedrosa have contact (not unlikely considering Zarco) then Dovi is suddenly in the lead! At that point "pace" means .... all. These are statement from solid members saying basically Dovi didn’t have a chance, EXCEPT that's absolutely wrong. That's the nature of a hail mary, miracle, snowball's chance in hell, etc. It may not have been pulled off, we already know it was unlikely, it's a stupid thing to repeat this when considering what 'might have happened'. Because when it does, like 2006, it reminds us that all that .... stacked against it means on occasion the Nicky Hayden's of the world, the Leicester City's of the world, the 1980 US Olympic hockey teams of the world can pull it off when everything goes right. Lorenzo could have quite possibly been that tiny butterfly that tipped the scale against Dovi, the good guy of the paddock who deserved at very least to be treated by his teammate as Marc was served by his.

You may not care for Mdub's opinion on several matters, but he was spot on in this thread regarding Jorge's absurd claim of "knowing" Dovi's pace who was directly behind him in real time ( laughably people agreeing here with Lorenzo's real time assessment, note, some of these same people also "knew" Lorenzo pulled over at Malaysia). But, I couldn't say it better myself and that is: Lorenzo had no ....... way of "knowing" what Dovi was experiencing behind him, to claim so afterwards is "sick"! Considering the context too, as Lorenzo viewed his pit board several laps "Dovi +0", later becoming "-1 neon arrow down", meanwhile his dash was lighting up like a Christmas tree, hey ......., pull the .... over' for Lorenzo to then turn around and say he thought he was "helping Dovi" and worse "knowing" he was towing is "sick"!

I had similar thought to yourself Mike, as I watched in dismay, the only explanation I could figure was that they had a previous agreement. I thought ok, maybe Dovi and Jlo talked about a strategy, like in distance running, I'll be the rabbit, then you can pounce. But post race almost immediately it became clear, Lorenzo had not helped Dovi, he had not helped Dovi at Malaysia either, but rather the reality came into focus; Lorenzo tried to assert himself selfishly for position to save what has been a season long failure. He raced like many of these guys do at Valencia who have had a .... season, they see it as their last opportunity to salvage something. In Lorenzo's case, to assert himself in a team that he's been thoroughly whipped, knowing they signed him to lead the project, but up until then had been an abject failure! I said it before on this thread and it bears repeating, if you compare Rossi and Lorenzo's first year stint at Ducati Lorenzo comes off looking far far worse. Rossi's teammate didn't go winning 6 races to his 0. Lorenzo is desperate, selfish, and unfortunately perceived the championship to be over.

I would think we all know enough about world and how sophisticated organizations go into PR damage control when an employee goes rogue. We see it played out in real life all the time, yet we're supposed to swallow the ........ Ducati is dishing, don't believe what your eyes saw people, "trust me". No, I haven’t heard that before this year.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

birdman said:

You think team VRDorna will sit idly by as Marquez ecplises the sun god? Not likely. Once VR retires and runs a team he will be by far the most influential and powerful figure in the sport. Poncheral has a contract with Yamaha? Hahaha. Dorna has rules governing the number of slots. More laughter, when have pesky rules ever been an impediment. Team VR will be factory spec and Michelin will be camped out in the garage whispering in Rossi’s ear. Marquez will no longer benefit from favourable mid season tire switches, he will receive the softest marshmellow tires imaginable.

With the current Ducati controversy, what’s the bet Lorenzo gets a slot on team VR, at minimum for his development abilities. If not maybe Zarco or pretty much whoever is hot property will be lining up to get a gig. This is when Marquez will face his hardest competition and then we will see if he is truly able to work miracles or if he is just as easily manipulated as those before him. I just can’t see him strolling nochulantly past 9 times at 27 years of age being congratuated by Uccio and uncle Ezzy in park ferme while King Rossi sulks in the corner.

Click to expand...

It's always great to read some good fan fiction!

Jumkie said:

But, I couldn't say it better myself and that is: Lorenzo had no ....... way of "knowing" what Dovi was experiencing behind him,

Click to expand...

While I find your posts entertaining, this is just non-racer drivel. Jorge Lorenzo has raced side-by-side with Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa, Spies, and Marquez. He has won and lost to those dudes. This guy knows what he is talking about. And he damn well knows if someone can pass him or not. Please recall him racing through esses, side-by-side, with MM or VR. The guy is the real deal and I will take his assessment over yours or MINE, any day.

Gaz said:

Call it retarded if you want, but isn't predictions what we do every week when we tip who may win?

Click to expand...

Sorry Gaz... my post seems harsh now...

But I do think predictions are retarded... ever seen me post any?

Mick D said:

Sorry Gaz... my post seems harsh now...

But I do think predictions are retarded... ever seen me post any?

Click to expand...

Mate, I rarely post them myself and when I do it is usually at a season level rather than a race level, thus why I am happy to indulge with season predictions, many of which are far from the reality however I do have to say.

Jumkie said:

I'm not sure how Dorna figures in here.

Though I agree that Krops/Dorna (and Harris) by virtue of being Rossi-centric have historically been "anti-Lorenzo" in their view, I don’t particularly think this narrative applies with what we witnessed from Lorenzo.

I've given Lorenzo much props throughout the years, particularly this season at Ducati; but I see his behavior the last two races as an affront to Dovi, and thus I cannot stomach. Dovi is not cut from the same cloth as most of the characters in MotoGP, he far more special as a man than a rider. For Lorenzo to treat Dovi in this way, in the most important and fluid moment of his professional career, is unforgivable. As I said, Lorenzo rode the last two races as if it was a foregone conclusion that the championship was already decided (to my amazement, mirroring much of the sentiment expressed on the forum by supposed members who "understand" that it's not over until it's over.) The greatest example of this being true about sport is the 2006 championship, which if you care to scroll back, was a similar sentiment expressed here back then. The miraculous was pulled off, because it was possible. But lots of things have to go right and wrong, in this case, as I've said repeatedly, Pedrosa thumbed the balance in Marc's favor, Lorenzo decidedly thumbed the scale 'against' Dovi.

Go back and read the stuff people are posting here, including Lorenzo's pre-event statement, much of it follows this sentiment: well Marc isn't going crash, a mechanical is more likely, he almost did crash! Well Dovi wasn't going win, even my friend Arrabi, whose opinion I consider as close to the Word of God, suggesting Pedrosa's race was inconsequential when asked to comment on Honda team orders. Inconsequential? The man sat comfortably back between Marc and the Ducatis for .... sake, then challenged for the win immediately after Marc went through the gravel! That's exactly what Marc needed to happen in case he lost concentration for a '2nd' time and crashed out! Then there's people saying, Dovi didn’t gave the pace to win. WTF am I reading here? If Zarco and Pedrosa have contact (not unlikely considering Zarco) then Dovi is suddenly in the lead! At that point "pace" means .... all. These are statement from solid members saying basically Dovi didn’t have a chance, EXCEPT that's absolutely wrong. That's the nature of a hail mary, miracle, snowball's chance in hell, etc. It may not have been pulled off, we already know it was unlikely, it's a stupid thing to repeat this when considering what 'might have happened'. Because when it does, like 2006, it reminds us that all that .... stacked against it means on occasion the Nicky Hayden's of the world, the Leicester City's of the world, the 1980 US Olympic hockey teams of the world can pull it off when everything goes right. Lorenzo could have quite possibly been that tiny butterfly that tipped the scale against Dovi, the good guy of the paddock who deserved at very least to be treated by his teammate as Marc was served by his.

You may not care for Mdub's opinion on several matters, but he was spot on in this thread regarding Jorge's absurd claim of "knowing" Dovi's pace who was directly behind him in real time ( laughably people agreeing here with Lorenzo's real time assessment, note, some of these same people also "knew" Lorenzo pulled over at Malaysia). But, I couldn't say it better myself and that is: Lorenzo had no ....... way of "knowing" what Dovi was experiencing behind him, to claim so afterwards is "sick"! Considering the context too, as Lorenzo viewed his pit board several laps "Dovi +0", later becoming "-1 neon arrow down", meanwhile his dash was lighting up like a Christmas tree, hey ......., pull the .... over' for Lorenzo to then turn around and say he thought he was "helping Dovi" and worse "knowing" he was towing is "sick"!

I had similar thought to yourself Mike, as I watched in dismay, the only explanation I could figure was that they had a previous agreement. I thought ok, maybe Dovi and Jlo talked about a strategy, like in distance running, I'll be the rabbit, then you can pounce. But post race almost immediately it became clear, Lorenzo had not helped Dovi, he had not helped Dovi at Malaysia either, but rather the reality came into focus; Lorenzo tried to assert himself selfishly for position to save what has been a season long failure. He raced like many of these guys do at Valencia who have had a .... season, they see it as their last opportunity to salvage something. In Lorenzo's case, to assert himself in a team that he's been thoroughly whipped, knowing they signed him to lead the project, but up until then had been an abject failure! I said it before on this thread and it bears repeating, if you compare Rossi and Lorenzo's first year stint at Ducati Lorenzo comes off looking far far worse. Rossi's teammate didn't go winning 6 races to his 0. Lorenzo is desperate, selfish, and unfortunately perceived the championship to be over.

I would think we all know enough about world and how sophisticated organizations go into PR damage control when an employee goes rogue. We see it played out in real life all the time, yet we're supposed to swallow the ........ Ducati is dishing, don't believe what your eyes saw people, "trust me". No, I haven’t heard that before this year.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Click to expand...

As I said, unless he had discussed strategies with Dovi before the race and was operating under same then it is post hoc justification as you have argued all along, the only alternative being that he borrowed the mind reading equipment employed by RD at Sepang 2015 and hence knew what Dovi was thinking, planning and doing from his position in front of him on the track as MDub correctly argued.

I do see some motive for an anti-Lorenzo narrative from Dorna, if Rossi has finally realised the glorious 10th is a pipe dream and may actually contemplate retirement they could perhaps have realised their peril and have perceived an urgent need to rehabilitate MM, and hence a singular designated villain in Lorenzo is conceivably advantageous for them. I didn’t even bother posting this theory in my previous post because Lorenzo simply riding like a prick appears far more likely as you argue.

I have no problems with MDub’s takes on actual bike racing, which I generally find quite cogent, and I also have no problem with differences in opinion. What irritates me is what I see as a tendency to attempt to moderate the forum along his preferred lines when he was vociferous in complaining about this being done to him a while back, and probably from JK more than him the mocking of posters involved in the discussion of non-approved topics. We all know being a sports fan in itself, let alone arguing passionately about sports on an Internet forum doesn’t stand up to rational analysis, but even people as smart as the aforementioned Arabb find it somewhat diverting, and I see no need to mock people even for something as unwholesome as involving Casey Stoner in a discussion of GP bike racing, mockery being an easy thing for everybody to do if they so chose; you yourself mainly take exception to opinions with which you disagree, not infrequently quite passionately, rather than anything else.

As I have said, I know it’s only rock n’roll but I like it.

Iamapony said:

While I find your posts entertaining, this is just non-racer drivel. Jorge Lorenzo has raced side-by-side with Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa, Spies, and Marquez. He has won and lost to those dudes. This guy knows what he is talking about. And he damn well knows if someone can pass him or not. Please recall him racing through esses, side-by-side, with MM or VR. The guy is the real deal and I will take his assessment over yours or MINE, any day.

Click to expand...

Ok got it. You are all good accepting any statements uttered by anyone in a position of authority without critical analyzation.

Mick D said:

Ok got it. You are all good accepting any statements uttered by anyone in a position of authority without critical analyzation.

Click to expand...

Ah, I actually made an argument for my position. You, on the other hand present nothing but negativity and think that counts as something. Well, you are wrong. You said nothing, made no point and well, I am just bored and answering this because I am bored.

Lol, designated villain. Rehabbing. Plotting against riders.
I missed the part when Dorna stopped wasting their time involved in getting circuit and supplier contracts in order, managing Cashflow, printing tickets and a million other things real companies are busy doing in the real world and started writing House of Cards scripts instead.

No one needs to plot anything against Lorenzo to make him unlikable. He does a stellar job at it himself.

synn said:

^whatever this guy is smoking possibly can't be legal

Click to expand...

It's legal and it's spectacular!

pyeman said:

for me he started acting like a dick when he got involved in all that Rossi/Marquez .... back in 2015,remember his thumbs down gestures on the podium?

Click to expand...

I thought the thumbs down was great. i wish he booted him off the podium.

MadMax said:

I thought the thumbs down was great. i wish he booted him off the podium.

Click to expand...

While i'm no fan of Rossi it wasn't Lorenzo's argument,i would have liked to see Marquez kick Rossi off the podium though for kicking him off his bike...

Iamapony said:

While I find your posts entertaining, this is just non-racer drivel. Jorge Lorenzo has raced side-by-side with Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa, Spies, and Marquez. He has won and lost to those dudes. This guy knows what he is talking about. And he damn well knows if someone can pass him or not. Please recall him racing through esses, side-by-side, with MM or VR. The guy is the real deal and I will take his assessment over yours or MINE, any day.

Click to expand...

Oh, just non racer drivel eh buddy? Because you're qualified to make this assessment? Let's examine your standard then: Do you also take Rossi's assessment as truth that he "knew" Marquez's pace in front and behind him at Phillip Island and Sepang 2015? Do you also take VR's assessments that Marquez blocked Pedrosa and refused to pass Lorenzo at Valencia? I'll assume you say no, but by your own simplistic standard you should be wrong and Rossi right, because he's a racer, world champion, etc., "knows" far more than our stupid ....., right? You gonna apply your arbitrarily standard to both instances or you gonna lizard out of one but not the other?

Yours is an age old argument that has never held up to scrutiny, the fact you're throwing it into the ring here says something about you, I'll spare you spelling it out. Why the hell are we here on the forum second guessing all these GP champs and pro racers then? Let's all go away right, none of us can comment, as you put it, ALL of what we say is non-racer drivel, we can't possibly know ..... Take a poll dude, ask everyone on the forum to please offer their world class racing resume, only those can comment then. By your logic, YOU are not even qualified to assess Lorenzo's statement! Not all racers agree with eachother, so who the heck are you or me to decide which is right, given your standard? Did you think of the logical conclusion to your non-original statement?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Listening to Michael Barthélemy talking with the commentators during the Valencia test.

He is not at all happy that Honda didn't do enough to help him keep jack miller in the team or in the spec of the machinery he got last year and will be getting in 2018. He said very plainly that this is the reason hey only have a one year extension with Honda and will evaluate mid year on who will give them the most attention.

I think that the stage is set now for KTM's satellite effort.