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2017 Gran Premio Motul de la Comunitat Valenciana

I think MM's goal is to break the 7/9 title's of Rossi before he leaves HRC. Just my suspicion personally.

Say he wins the next 3 consecutive titles, that would have him tied at 27 years old. He could break Rossi's premier class number at 28 years old, then it would leave him free to jump ship. My guess is HRC will do anything they can to see him break that number on the Repsol Honda as the ultimate middle finger for the 2003 debacle.

Why is it a middle finger?

HRC lost Rossi because they thought the bike was more important than the rider and a chipmunk could ride their god creation.

They learned from that mistake and is now doing the exact opposite with Marquez, bending over backwards to make sure the bike is exactly what he wants it to be.

If anything, 2003 taught HRC a very valuable lesson.
 
Herve talking about Rossi having a Yamaha independent team. He didn't .... around at all, says that there is an agreement in place that no new independent team can enter into the class until 2021. That if Rossi wants an independent team before then he would have to buy an exisiting one but he doesn't like spending money. He doesn't want Rossi as a partner if that's Yamahas plan. He asked Yamaha if it comes down to tech 3 or VR46 team who will they support and he was told VR46 team. He also said something along the lines of that despite what people may think Rossi isn't bigger than Yamaha or the sport.
 
With holidays etc, I haven't been able to keep up on the forum as I didn't want to spoil some of the races before seeing them.

Earlier in the year, I made a claim that I didn't think Dovi had it in him. To me, he was an also runner, just like Pedrosa but I concede that I was wrong. Dovi reached down and felt a massive set of balls and his win in the rain when he had MM up his exhaust was hugely impressive. A season is all about 'what ifs' and if only he'd been able to duke it out in Philip Island, maybe the final race might have been a bit more entertaining.

I'm a big fan of Jorge and his time at Yamaha with Rossi in the same garage had to thicken his skin to the all the crap people said about him. I thought it very telling that the commentators couldn't help themselves and basically admitted the bias that they've always felt towards him such was their desperation to signal how righteous they were without any consideration to what might be happening on the track.

Yes Ducati might have been giving JLo orders but he knows Valencia better than Dovi and hence him wringing the crap out of the Ducati to haul in the lead group was the best possible thing for Dovi. Let's remember that Dovi had qualified in 9th, so his pace wasn't quite on it.

Now whilst they were chasing the group, what advantage would Dovi had in going past Jorge? Staying behind Jlo meant he could potentially protect his tires a little more and take a slipstream when the opportunity presented itself. But let's be real, despite the wails from the commentators, the opportunity wasn't there.

JLo wasn't shutting the door on Dovi at every corner. He wasn't making himself wide. Rather he was doing his metronomic fast pace on a bike that seemingly isn't suited to Valencia but his skill and knowledge of the track was keeping him in the running. Dovi was riding on the back of him but never forcing it.

Are we forgetting that for many races this season Dovi would be content to bide his time and wait until near the end to strike. If he'd wanted to get past JLo he could have tried but that would have affected his ride and given that both riders were literally on the edge to keep in contention, you can understand him not wanting to risk binning it. And what proof do we actually have that Dovi could have caught the others? We saw what happened when he pushed harder didn't we?

Surely this 'knife edge' racing was revealed when MM went off the track which both JLo and Dovi saw and they upped the pace. Suddenly the gloves were off and the risks worth taking and hence they started to push beyond the edge. So much so that JLo came off.

Now I'm sure many, including the commentators, chortled a laugh of just desserts but then low and behold Dovi went off, demonstrating that they both had been on the edge and when they pushed harder, they went over the edge.

Now maybe JLo should have given up his position and let Dovi have a crack, just to appease the armchair critics who think that strapping yourself to a rocket and hurtling round a track doesn't require some kind of 'winning' mentality and ego that propels you to be a racer.

But I can certainly remember a final race in a previous championship where JLo was speeding up and slowing down in an attempt to cause problems and potential mistakes for his championship rival. That to me speaks of someone who understands what is required and the need that until you can actually affect things, there is no need to concede.

So yes, with all the commentators clamouring to put the boot in and pull out every instance where JLo might have sleighted them, I can see why many think he should have moved over. But IMO I think he was doing what he could to keep up with the group and when he saw MM go off, he pulled the pin, threw caution to the wind and went for it. Partly for himself and partly to help pull Dovi up.

As I said, it was certainly illuminating for exposing the bias in the reporting that many knew was there and I guess I'll have to contend with even more of it next year against 'nasty' Jorge. He's learnt to be thick skinned, disliked by everyone and considered a prima donna so I guess it won't be anything new.

I know many say that Dovi was classy in not blaming JLo but if Dovi is so classy, is there not a chance that maybe he was telling the truth and was struggling to stay with JLo let alone the leading pack?

Anyway, congrats to MM. He thoroughly deserved the win. I love his recklessness in admitting to losing a second of concentration and then saving it and I thought his comment to Dovi in Parc Ferme was very nice.

I also give congrats to Dovi for providing us with some entertaining racing this year and certainly proving that he has some stones to step up. Whether he will ever make the top spot, I don't know.

One final thing I will say though is that I thought the endless shots of clapping Dovi in his garage got a little too much. He's a great guy and all but come on, we are all adults here rather than 5 year old children that need their fragile ego's massaged. I don't really think we needed to show that much footage of people cheering him for being the plucky runner up.

Don't get me wrong he deserves praise but it smacked to me of that whole 'it's not about winning, it's about competing' PC nonsense.

Overall good post. I do take exception to a few things.

One - his qualifying times have not hindered his ability to win races. Often people thought he was sandbagging.

Two - Jlo knows Valencia better than Dovi? He's won there many times - but that's because it happens to be a track he is just naturally better at, same way Stoner was pretty much unbeatable at PI.

Three - how can you assert that Dovi hasn't got the desire to win after watching him beat Marquez in some of the most astounding battles of the last 20 years? He had "the fire in the belly". He just didn't have the bike for a tight track like Valencia and he did as well as could reasonably be expected. Clearly - Dovi, who virtually never crashes, was not risk averse, crashed out trying his level best to be up at the pointy end.
 
I heard early on it was redbull that was going to make a play for Marc to go to KTM 2019. I hear redbull is planning on making an offer he cannot refuse. I could see them at least taking a shot at him. It would be silly not too.

Red Bull the commercial arm has suffered this year, sales are down over 20%, somehow I think that suggestion is wishful thinking after all you have to have a sound financial base to operate from.
 
Overall good post. I do take exception to a few things.

One - his qualifying times have not hindered his ability to win races. Often people thought he was sandbagging.

Two - Jlo knows Valencia better than Dovi? He's won there many times - but that's because it happens to be a track he is just naturally better at, same way Stoner was pretty much unbeatable at PI.

Three - how can you assert that Dovi hasn't got the desire to win after watching him beat Marquez in some of the most astounding battles of the last 20 years? He had "the fire in the belly". He just didn't have the bike for a tight track like Valencia and he did as well as could reasonably be expected. Clearly - Dovi, who virtually never crashes, was not risk averse, crashed out trying his level best to be up at the pointy end.

Thanks for your comments.

1. No, you are right. I only mentioned it to indicate that JLo was 'on it' at Valencia more than Dovi going on their qualifying.

2. Okay, wrong use of words. Maybe I should have said performed better at Valencia or a track that JLo likes and hence has a better understanding. Who better to follow round than your team mate who is very comfortable on that track.

3. My point wasn't about Dovi's fire in his belly (he has certainly demonstrated that he has this) but rather a comment that doing what MotoGP riders do, requires a certain racing mentality. Hence when people comment that riders should have a 'no after you' mentality, we are ignoring that to do this very job (and be world beating at it) means that you need to have a stronger, more aggressive personality than some others. So having the desire to win and compete is a fundamental of this profession and hence we shouldn't be surprised that riders are reluctant to give up positions when they don't have to.
 
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Viñales sets the fastest time on a 2016 bike.
Zarco sets second fastest in a 2017.

Bizarroworld at Yamaha again...
 
Viñales sets the fastest time on a 2016 bike.
Zarco sets second fastest in a 2017.

Bizarroworld at Yamaha again...

Certainly suggests that Zarco is a hell of a talent, it's early days though but I would like to know what Zarco thinks of the bike.
 
Definitely is a hell of a talent. I can't wait to see him on a factory bike, be it at Yamaha or KTM.

He is also a good example for the team bosses that you don't always need to sign 22 year olds.
 
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Rossi did two laps on his prototype 2018 bike before this:

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He was ok thankfully. But I'm pretty sure he's lost his no claims bonus on that one.
 
No, Dovi is always honest in his statements. The rare times he's pissed (as with Iannone in the past) he never hides it.
Anyway, in this case everthing was evident enough. Lorenzo was towing him. He had been faster than him the whole weekend. Map 8 was just a bit of wishful thinking from the garage.

I agreed with you until I read Emmett's report of the post-race scrambling at Ducati (and the dynamic between JL and AD). Please have a look and let me know if it alters your opinion

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2017/11/13/2017_valencia_motogp_post_race_round_up.html
 
Always trying to bury the opposition (and common sense) under a sheer mass of BS, uh?
Maybe remember that tl:dr also applies on the web!

For those who may be interested in actual information more than in drunken delirium, here's a link:
https://www.gpone.com/en/2017/11/14/motogp/dalligna-we-made-a-mistake-not-lorenzo.html?refresh_ce


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If you are neck-deep in your own BS, don't open your mouth too much! :)
Thanks for quoting, essentially re-posting, my entire post. A tell tale sign you read every word of my posts is to deny it. You're not the first person who has used this lame tactic to avoid engaging in a point-by-point debate that you have no answers for my friend.

You had already told us Ducati's public statement, your answer is to post it again in a form of a link? You've never quite understood debate, but let me explain it to you, I'm calling ........ on their statement, then I've asserted reasons why. In support of my position I've also reminded everyone just how credible you are regarding some supposed insider knowledge of Ducati, which was essentially Ducati didn’t listen to Rossi and that's why they failed. Regarding your pulse on reality, I reminded everyone you aligned yourself with the great Rossi conspiracy theory of 2015. Basically, I'm pointing out you're insane. (Harsh I know, the truth isn't always pretty.)

But now we're supposed to look past this and give you credence that Ducati are not putting out PR statements to cover their public image? Because "you know they're telling the truth"?

Btw J4, after you're done reading my entire posts as you always do, understand something about a forum, what is written is also for other's consumption, it serves to refute and agree with other opinions being expressed. Which is why I said it's fascinating that many of the 'same' people who swore Lorenzo moved out of Dovi's way and 'lied about it after' Malaysia are now pointing to his statements as truth, I'm pointing out here their inconsistency, something like pointing out your ridiculous position on Ducati to now mindlessly accept you're some kind of authority on Ducati.

Like I said, I can understand why you're a bopper, you guys don't have too many national heroes, so when one comes along as flawed like Rossi, I get why you blindly support him, even if it meant having to 'tow' Uccio's conspiracy making you look rather silly. Until recently I had never heard you throw your support behind Dovi, though it was short lived. But I can understand why you believe Jorge Lorenzo's absurd claim that he could read Dovi's mind in real time during the race, "knowing" he was superior to the guy he was blocking, err I mean "towing". If only I could think of another occasion YOU 'believed' a rider "knew" he was superior to the guy behind him, and then said it publicly. You know, something of a mind reader during the race...

Funny thing about being drunk, I'll be sober in the morning, you'll still be stupid, buddy.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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Maybe remember that tl:dr also applies on the web!

For those who may be interested in actual information more than in drunken delirium, here's a link:
https://www.gpone.com/en/2017/11/14/motogp/dalligna-we-made-a-mistake-not-lorenzo.html?refresh_ce

I know you're all about tl:dr, but below you will find some interesting words.

I think what you should have said when posting your link above was: 'For those of you 'gullible enough' to be interested in actual corporate 'misinformation'... as I see some have liked your post, here is a link that may unmask your naivete.


motomatters said:
"Lorenzo gave an obvious scenario in which he would be willing to help Dovizioso. "I need to try to be in the front, and if Dovi's there, and if Marc has some problems, and I see on the board or on the dashboard, then I will try to help." Those conditions never materialized, and so Lorenzo did not feel obliged to help.

CORPORATE COMMUNICATIONS

The way the race played out PUT DUCATI INTO URGENT DAMAGE CONTROL MODE. In the final laps of the race, when both riders were back in the garage, Lorenzo went over to Dovizioso to explain why he had done what he had done. The footage on TV showed Dovizioso accepting those explanations passively, but the look on his face was not one of great enthusiasm.

After the race, as the media all filed into what is euphemistically known as "The Sponsor's Hospitality" to listen to what the riders had to say, IT WAS CLEAR THAT AN OFFICIAL MESSAGE HAD BEEN DECIDED ON, AND THE PROTAGONISTS WERE BEING BRIEFED. Journalists saw DUCATI BOSS PAOLO CIABATTI HANDING DOWN THE CORPORATE LINE TO TEAM BOSS DAVIDE TARDOZZI. BY THE TIME WE GOT TO SPEAK TO CIABATTI, THE MESSAGE HAD BEEN INSTILLED THROUGHOUT THE RANKS.

THE KEY TO DUCATI'S COMPANY LINE REVOLVED AROUND THE WORD "SUGGESTED" in the dashboard message sent to Lorenzo. [What a coincidence eh J4 wannabe Ducati insider...] "This is what we suggest to the rider based on what we can see from the pit box," Ciabatti explained. "And the rider knows because he can see the other riders, so in this case, I think if you also speak to Dovi, and he will tell you HE THOUGHT that at the beginning he was FASTER in a few corners and slower in other corners, but at a certain point, with his clean lines was helping Dovi to ride in a very relaxed way. So he said it helped me up to a point to catch Pedrosa, and then he said, unfortunately we were both at the limit, and Jorge said, yes, if he had seen that Márquez had a problem, then obviously once we catch the leading group, then I would let him pass. But we needed first to catch the leading group and try to be first and second, and then see what happens."

What you can't see

CIABATTI WARNED against judging the situation based on TV footage. [THIS IS KNOWN AS GASLIGHTING, what you clearly saw let us interpreted it for you naive gullible fools, don't believe your eye! ] "I think honestly, you can never really judge perfectly from what you see on TV, and if a rider knows that he has the pace to close the gap to the front, and other riders following him, and gaining an advantage from following some clean lines, I think it's fine. We're not upset. We would be upset if Marc crashed and Lorenzo wins, and Dovi is second. But this is not the case."

"AS I SAID," he continued, "SOMETIMES YOU JUDGE BY WHAT YOU SEE, but the rider is on the bike, he knows if he can push, if he has some margin, if is able to close the gap to the front and help his teammate. So I think there was never I think a situation where he was passing and the other one was closing, and so on. SO THE BEST ANSWER is what Dovi said, and he said it because he thinks it, that in the end he is not upset at all, just he was able to actually relax a little bit without having to push so much."

Despite this, Ducati had kept on trying to communicate with Lorenzo. "Yes, because in our opinion, in some areas he was slowing Dovi down," Ciabatti told us. "But then again, if it was like this, Dovi would come into the garage and be quite upset, but he's not. So I think we must really give credit to professional riders that they know what they are doing. And it's our suggestion because we think, OK, let him go. We think, let him pass. But then at a certain point, you saw also Dovi was losing a little bit and then gaining again."

Translation: what you heard was a corporate public relations dog and pony show. The management issued talking points to shield their image exactly as I've been saying.


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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