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2017 Gran Premio Motul de la Comunitat Valenciana

Lorenzo failed to read the fine print when signing with Ducati, which states; "Only Australian and Italian riders are capable of winning GP races on a Ducati". I don't think Lorenzo has done himself any favours within the team moving forwards, regardless of their public statements.

I actually disagree (unexpectedly ............. not!)

Lorenzo has shown in the last three races of the season that he is competitive with Dovisioso which from the factory point of view may well indicate a positive return.

Plus, for mine here, JL is far stronger mentally than many and shows little to no signs of being broken by Ducati but rather, perhaps having started breaking down the duke.

No, I suspect that the factory, whilst disappointed in their season's end (remember PI all) will be happy enough with their position in the world.

JL will finish ahead of Dovi in 2018 which I suspect may have been the long term plan.
 
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You've taken my position and made it your own, shrewd, let's just say you've finally conceded and call it a day shall we?

No - I've taken "your position" which is conjecture and acknowledged the possibility of it. Perhaps this is a better summation...

Arrabi, I was editing my post as u wrote urs. As I said, I think we agree overall (or more accurately) I agree with u overall, and as I said, perhaps its a matter of degree.

And where it comes to team orders it seems we also agree...

But I thought about it a bit more and concluded Lyria does have a point, though with the caveat that no classic "team orders" were in place (as HRC are not in the custom, see Estoril 06). In Lyras defense, being fairly new to MotoGP vs F1 (where team orders are shocking to me) perhaps she is not familiar with HRC's custom of not employing such "team tactic". But she did detect a more 'measured' race tactic by Marquez. Perhaps we can chalk this up to my personal bias on Marquez. /QUOTE]

So to be fair to you, you didn't originally suggest the possibility that team orders were imposed, but that Marquez was riding more conservatively which I myself didn't detect.

On Marquez, I did think that this was quite sagacious of you...

So I hope he is maturing quickly or listening to prudent advice.

Btw, just out of curiosity, do you agree or disagree that Pedrosa rode at Valencia 17 in a manner consistent with Honda team orders?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

I think Dani rode his own race which was irrelevant to the outcome of the title. I don't think either Dovi or Jorge had the pace to reach him, far less pass him - although as magnanimous as Dovi was as ever, Lorenzo certainly didn't help his cause. Following the Dovi DNF it would have been interesting to see both Repsol Hondas out front with a lap to go and nothing to lose.
 
Everything said publicly on this issue is for public consumption, it's straight out of PR handbook. For reference neither rider blamed eachother or accepted responsibility (Pedrosa) in the most obvious teammate debacle ever at Estoril 06. Honda officially didn’t come out and say, yup Pedrosa is an ......., he ...... up. Don't expect Ducati to throw their million dollar failure under the bus. They're stuck with this ....... now.

This is a more subtle situation than Estoril 06, and even then there were people like you and others, just like on this thread now, saying Pedrosa was justified and worse blamed the incident on Nicky. It's ludicrous now to read people say Dovi was tired or distracted or mentally fatigued or whatever stupid .... I'm reading, newsflash Marquez went into the gravel, lucky the gravel wasnt more deep in that area, he was far more affected and he was in the points lead. In other words he had less of a reason to bin it! It's also idiotic to read people assign some positive attribute to Marc's mistakes that could have cost him the championship. It was stupid, it was lucky, and it was not an example of smarts and sure as hell wasn't admirable; most of all it shows he cracked under pressure! Oh yeah, that's right, he succumbed to pressure, his body language, looking back repeatedly, missing his brake marker, putting the bike on his elbow and riding through the gravel, that my friend is cracking under pressure! Much like some here are suggesting was the case for Dovi. Let's examine this absurd reasoning: Dovi was in the bin or win situation NOT Marquez, yet Marc almost binned and had to ride through the gravel and people are pointing to it like it's so wonderful. Dovi went for broke and binned it! Yet people are flaunting over Marc's heroics? The world has gone mad.


This situation is more subtle than Estoril 06, but as I said above, you got people saying the most insane ....: Lorenzo was helping Dovi, the championship was a foregone conclusion, Dovi wasn't going to win, bla bla. Then why have the race? We knew it was a hail mary situation, we knew it was a miracle proposition, YET people here, stunningly coming from solid members, perceived it's as done because the great infallible Marquez was in the drivers seat. Yet he almost crashed! Yet Dovi was in the lead group, that after a horrible qual. Yet Dovi momentary was just behind the two combatants disputing a win, one of which is known for aggressive riding. The miraculous was a real possibility! But what did Lorenzo vs Pedrosa do in this situation? Pedrosa thumbed the scale in Marc's favor all race. Lorenzo thumbed the scale decidedly against his teammate.


Ducati's star and supposed #1 embarrassingly thumbed his nose at a direct team order. You've tried to downplay it as a mere "suggestion", but it wasn't at the time, see the neon arrow on the pit board. How many times did they light up his dashboard? You nor Ducati can weasel out of this fact. Lorenzo said .... you, I know better, and by doing so did exactly what Rossi did for Yamaha, they had to 'tow' the ........ line afterwards.

How come Ducati or Lorenzo didn't say he was "towing" Dovi up at Malaysia? The answer is because it's ......... J4, you're the last person here to speak in authoritative way regarding Ducati. You are the Italian version of a Birther (an American faction of people who believe the former US president was not born in Hawaii). When you took Rossi's side in the 2015 conspiracy debacle and previously the claim that Ducati didn’t do anything radical to help Rossi during his stint you elevated yourself to Birther status. You're opinion on Ducati is frankly as valid as moon landing conspiracy theorists regarding NASA. I just said this above, but it bears repeating. When you're so far off base on two seminal moments of the sport, everything else is suspect.



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.




Always trying to bury the opposition (and common sense) under a sheer mass of BS, uh?
Maybe remember that tl:dr also applies on the web!

For those who may be interested in actual information more than in drunken delirium, here's a link:
https://www.gpone.com/en/2017/11/14/motogp/dalligna-we-made-a-mistake-not-lorenzo.html?refresh_ce


_____________________________________________________________
If you are neck-deep in your own BS, don't open your mouth too much! :)
 
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Dall'Igna said openly that Lorenzo was right and the team "suggestions" were wrong. Now folks, make whatever you want of it. I know both Dovi and him are speaking their mind honestly.
Ok. I'll bite... how the .... would anyone know that as a fact, Nostradamus?
 
I actually disagree (unexpectedly ............. not!)

Lorenzo has shown in the last three races of the season that he is competitive with Dovisioso which from the factory point of view may well indicate a positive return.

Plus, for mine here, JL is far stronger mentally than many and shows little to no signs of being broken by Ducati but rather, perhaps having started breaking down the duke.

No, I suspect that the factory, whilst disappointed in their season's end (remember PI all) will be happy enough with their position in the world.

JL will finish ahead of Dovi in 2018
which I suspect may have been the long term plan.

I have no doubt that Ducati is happy. I have great doubt in another ........ nostrodamus prediction.
 
I think Dovi is just too much of a nice guy to say what a lot of us are thinking, Lorenzo's a ....,and i've always liked the guy up until now, he almost crashed in Malaysia in his eagerness to stay in front of Dovi despite getting the mapping 8 'suggestion' there too,it must really grip his .... to have been made to look so average by his team mate this year,remember Ducati brought him in to win the title and he couldn't even win a single race,and no one expected Dovi to have a season like that when he was supposed to be Lorenzo's understudy..

So basically you are saying Lorenzo is another Rossi.
 
With holidays etc, I haven't been able to keep up on the forum as I didn't want to spoil some of the races before seeing them.

Earlier in the year, I made a claim that I didn't think Dovi had it in him. To me, he was an also runner, just like Pedrosa but I concede that I was wrong. Dovi reached down and felt a massive set of balls and his win in the rain when he had MM up his exhaust was hugely impressive. A season is all about 'what ifs' and if only he'd been able to duke it out in Philip Island, maybe the final race might have been a bit more entertaining.

I'm a big fan of Jorge and his time at Yamaha with Rossi in the same garage had to thicken his skin to the all the crap people said about him. I thought it very telling that the commentators couldn't help themselves and basically admitted the bias that they've always felt towards him such was their desperation to signal how righteous they were without any consideration to what might be happening on the track.

Yes Ducati might have been giving JLo orders but he knows Valencia better than Dovi and hence him wringing the crap out of the Ducati to haul in the lead group was the best possible thing for Dovi. Let's remember that Dovi had qualified in 9th, so his pace wasn't quite on it.

Now whilst they were chasing the group, what advantage would Dovi had in going past Jorge? Staying behind Jlo meant he could potentially protect his tires a little more and take a slipstream when the opportunity presented itself. But let's be real, despite the wails from the commentators, the opportunity wasn't there.

JLo wasn't shutting the door on Dovi at every corner. He wasn't making himself wide. Rather he was doing his metronomic fast pace on a bike that seemingly isn't suited to Valencia but his skill and knowledge of the track was keeping him in the running. Dovi was riding on the back of him but never forcing it.

Are we forgetting that for many races this season Dovi would be content to bide his time and wait until near the end to strike. If he'd wanted to get past JLo he could have tried but that would have affected his ride and given that both riders were literally on the edge to keep in contention, you can understand him not wanting to risk binning it. And what proof do we actually have that Dovi could have caught the others? We saw what happened when he pushed harder didn't we?

Surely this 'knife edge' racing was revealed when MM went off the track which both JLo and Dovi saw and they upped the pace. Suddenly the gloves were off and the risks worth taking and hence they started to push beyond the edge. So much so that JLo came off.

Now I'm sure many, including the commentators, chortled a laugh of just desserts but then low and behold Dovi went off, demonstrating that they both had been on the edge and when they pushed harder, they went over the edge.

Now maybe JLo should have given up his position and let Dovi have a crack, just to appease the armchair critics who think that strapping yourself to a rocket and hurtling round a track doesn't require some kind of 'winning' mentality and ego that propels you to be a racer.

But I can certainly remember a final race in a previous championship where JLo was speeding up and slowing down in an attempt to cause problems and potential mistakes for his championship rival. That to me speaks of someone who understands what is required and the need that until you can actually affect things, there is no need to concede.

So yes, with all the commentators clamouring to put the boot in and pull out every instance where JLo might have sleighted them, I can see why many think he should have moved over. But IMO I think he was doing what he could to keep up with the group and when he saw MM go off, he pulled the pin, threw caution to the wind and went for it. Partly for himself and partly to help pull Dovi up.

As I said, it was certainly illuminating for exposing the bias in the reporting that many knew was there and I guess I'll have to contend with even more of it next year against 'nasty' Jorge. He's learnt to be thick skinned, disliked by everyone and considered a prima donna so I guess it won't be anything new.

I know many say that Dovi was classy in not blaming JLo but if Dovi is so classy, is there not a chance that maybe he was telling the truth and was struggling to stay with JLo let alone the leading pack?

Anyway, congrats to MM. He thoroughly deserved the win. I love his recklessness in admitting to losing a second of concentration and then saving it and I thought his comment to Dovi in Parc Ferme was very nice.

I also give congrats to Dovi for providing us with some entertaining racing this year and certainly proving that he has some stones to step up. Whether he will ever make the top spot, I don't know.

One final thing I will say though is that I thought the endless shots of clapping Dovi in his garage got a little too much. He's a great guy and all but come on, we are all adults here rather than 5 year old children that need their fragile ego's massaged. I don't really think we needed to show that much footage of people cheering him for being the plucky runner up.

Don't get me wrong he deserves praise but it smacked to me of that whole 'it's not about winning, it's about competing' PC nonsense.
 
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So basically you are saying Lorenzo is another Rossi.

I actually agree with this statement entirely. When JLo joined the premier class he wasn't the metronomic primadonna he is now. He was an entirely unsorted rider who would throw himself and others down the road on a regular basis. To many hard crashes and he had to develop a new style. I believe he tried to be the next Rossi hoping Rossi would embrace it. Hell he even started emulating Rossi celebration until he attempted to drown himself. After Rossi put the wall up he seemed to flip to the Stoner camp. Point is JLo has no idea who he is and I think he is taking the worst qualities from the riders he has gone up against. He has Rossi's cut throat assholeness and the chip from Stoners shoulder. Now I really thought he was turning over a new leaf at ducati. He seemed genuinely happy for Dovi and the team. But you could see that all change the last few races as Dovi's chance became more real. If he thought his result on sunday was going to have any barring on how the team treated him next year he is insane. As matter of fact he could only make himself look worse to the team and he accomplished it. I agree Dovi never put the bike beside JLo to attempt to pass. So we can only assume what JLo would do in that situation. But JLo had the pressure of a bike up his ... the entire race knowing very well who it was. For JLo to speak up saying I was helping him is ....... sick. There is no way he can say for a fact that Dovi didn't have faster pace or didn't deserve the opportunity to lead them around the track. Dovi would have most definitely pushed harder if JLo wasnt in the way. He may have ran off track sooner or caught them but he would have made an attempt. There is not a single place on that track where a draft or tow is needed. Valencia is a track where open air and flow is far more important then a bike to follow. In no world was it ok to not give his teammate a chance. Ducati will never forget. Part of me thinks it was JLo's way to get the .... out of there. Maybe he is already planning his exit strategy from Ducati. He won't be the number 1 rider next year it will be equal to start, but he will get worked by Dovi again next year as JLo won't get any better then you are seeing now. If he does I think dovi will still be 2 steps ahead.
 
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You been asleep? Tire changes, chassis changes, all for what, so he could feel better on the bike. Doesn’t matter that his teammate was killing it from day one, he put himself above the team once again.

Hey Tough Guy - good luck with the surgery! Get well soon.
 
He's planning for Marc's exit to KTM to be the highest paid rider as he should be.


I don't know if KTM would make a pitch for MM. The last interview suggested that they are very much keen on Zarco plus Binder and Olivera in their satellite team (Possible Marc VDS).

If J.Lo does leave Ducati in 2019 though, he would have completed his Rossi emulation by going from a world championship winning team to 2 years of doing fcukkall at Ducati.
:D
 
I don't know if KTM would make a pitch for MM. The last interview suggested that they are very much keen on Zarco plus Binder and Olivera in their satellite team (Possible Marc VDS).

If J.Lo does leave Ducati in 2019 though, he would have completed his Rossi emulation by going from a world championship winning team to 2 years of doing fcukkall at Ducati.
:D

I heard early on it was redbull that was going to make a play for Marc to go to KTM 2019. I hear redbull is planning on making an offer he cannot refuse. I could see them at least taking a shot at him. It would be silly not too.
 
HRC will probably back the proverbial Brinks truck into MM's house to keep him on the team.

I think the odds are slim he ever leaves HRC right now. But I would love to see him on the Ducati. I really think his riding style is tailor made for that bike.
 
What I want to know is:
Where was MM’s “I’m sorry Mike” placard in Parc Ferme after becoming the youngest rider to take 4 premier class WCs?
He could have added a “I’m sorry Vale” placard, too. After all, he is now the youngest 6 time WC.
.... it, he should reprise Subterranean Homesick Blues clip given the records he has broken.
 
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Marquez isn't going anywhere yet. He loves his team, HRC bend over backwards to give him what he wants and over the past two years HRC have made a huge effort to improve his bike over the season so that he could win the championship. He's on $10m from Honda + win bonus(I'm pretty Krop wrote $400k during 2015) + Championship bonus + $2.5m endorsements. I read he's worth around $30m, he's doesn't need money but wants championships.

Also saying Marquez has to go to KTM or Ducati to prove GOATness like Rossi is ridiculous, Yamaha is top 2 most successful premier class manufacturer in the last 30+ years so it really want the massive risk it's made up to be IMO.
 
I think MM's goal is to break the 7/9 title's of Rossi before he leaves HRC. Just my suspicion personally.

Say he wins the next 3 consecutive titles, that would have him tied at 27 years old. He could break Rossi's premier class number at 28 years old, then it would leave him free to jump ship. My guess is HRC will do anything they can to see him break that number on the Repsol Honda as the ultimate middle finger for the 2003 debacle.
 
What I want to know is:
Where was MM’s “I’m sorry Mike” placard in Parc Ferme after becoming the youngest rider to take 4 premier class WCs?
He could have added a “I’m sorry Vale” placard, too. After all, he is now the youngest 6 time WC.
.... it, he should reprise Subterranean Homesick Blues clip given the records he has broken.

What I want to know is why have there been no media reports of what Rossi's thoughts are on MM's world title? I wanted to see video footage of Rossi looking uncomfortable while having to offer some sort of kudos that was internally eating him up.
 
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