which better Lorenzo or stoner

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 12:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>funny, i thought stoner was on the michilins in 06 (when they were good ) and rossi was complaining about them in 07 (when stoner was on stones) get your facts straight mate !


In 06 Stoner got the bottom of the barrel tires, practically used. Rossi had the overnight specials. In 07 when Rossi lost his overnight specials he got blasted in the championship by the dude that was getting bottom barrell Michelins. It's funny how stuff works out If only Stoner had the overnight spiecials in 06?? But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if Rossi had BStones in 07 the bike was still too far down in developement to beat Stoner. Rossi needs good tires and good equipment to compete.

Rossi has yet to compliment HoHay like he has Stoner. I'll take the royalty of penciling in Stoner as better than Jorgay for the Rossi camp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jun 26 2009, 08:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In 06 Stoner got the bottom of the barrel tires, practically used. Rossi had the overnight specials. In 07 when Rossi lost his overnight specials he got blasted in the championship by the dude that was getting bottom barrell Michelins. It's funny how stuff works out If only Stoner had the overnight spiecials in 06?? But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if Rossi had BStones in 07 the bike was still too far down in developement to beat Stoner. Rossi needs good tires and good equipment to compete.

Rossi has yet to compliment HoHay like he has Stoner. I'll take the royalty of penciling in Stoner as better than Jorgay for the Rossi camp
yeah yeah what if what if.
djm said.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>on the michelins. wasn't rossi BITCHIN like a mofo about how bad michelins were? and he's THE MAN in gp. was getting special cooked tires just for him (and a few others). if he said they sucked, can you imagine what stoner was getting?

implying rossi was bitchin about the michilin at the same time stoner was using them.. not true. try reading all the posts sacky then you might just get what were on about

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jun 26 2009, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The obvious refute to that argument is 2007, he jumped on that bike after it had been developed for Loris Capirosi, and did so becoming (irrespective of world championships) the only rider in the premier class to win more than 4 races a season against Vale, which he did 2 years running.

The first year was the fair year, with no one expecting the win and Bridgestone never having won a championship before, and Casey did it on Loris's bike on then untested tyres (no other B’stone runner made the top 3).

All the arguments against Casey have stretched the bow beyond logic and reason.


Lets not forget that prior to his 2006 injury, Capirossi looked in great shape to take the title. Capi, (who is looked on here as some kind of joke by the "knowledgeable ones") was at the sharp end plenty of times on the Duke. Funny, but weve not seen any advance of that magnitude on the bike since Stoner took over as the boss....

Funny how it hurts so many to admit that Capi could ride the Duke and is a great rider. But I suppose, some of the knockers are about 3 years old, and some are just plain thick as ..... But what winds me up, is they then have the gall to slag off Rossi fans! "Oh Rossi fans are all 15 year old girls!" they bleat. Possibly because they are 15 year old boys who hate 15 yr old girls, because they cant get to first base with them.

Dont get me started..

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>doesn't matter where others finish on the duc, fact is casey can ride it so theres no dis-advatage for him at all. The yam works no better for rossi and jorge than the duc works for casey.

Thats because rossi can develop a good race bike, casey couldn't develop a cold. You say "the body language of the bike", i dont see riders getting spat off it so what do you mean ?

Rog your right in that Casey can ride the Duc in said position, so it would seem that its not a disadvantage. BU my point was he is getting that performance whilst no one else can. Where as Lorenzo is getting the same result on a bike that at least one other guy is, and the satalite bikes are a lot more competitive than the duc sat bikes.

Now whatever that is down to, be it development or whatever, its pretty apparent that he Duc is not as good a bike as theYamaha, and in turn its harder to ride.

What i mean by body language is how the bike behaves on the edge. You can see it in other forms of motor sport, ie F1 etc... where one machaine/bike achieves a lap time, and another bike can achieve that lap time but does it in an unrully and twitchy fashion. A bike that is more predictable, and rideable is easier to ride near the limit and has more room for error than a more unpredictable bike.

And also your comment about riders getting spat off, well in Quali last night Canepa was spat off and Casey was a poofteenth from getting shot into orbit.

Clearley its a fair bit of conjecture from both our points, i guess the basis of my reasoning is Casey appears to be out achieveing his machainery, where as Lorenzo appears to be paring his machainery.

Also the commentator on teh BBC last night commented that Casey uses less traction controll than all the other riders, but i guess its pretty hard to compare TC acrosss different brands and chassis.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yeah yeah what if what if.
djm said.


implying rossi was bitchin about the michilin at the same time stoner was using them.. not true. try reading all the posts sacky then you might just get what were on about

i'm pretty much at the point of ignorin ya man. you're about as thick and ....

well anyway.

you bring NOTHING to the table except the same ol ..... keep tyrin though. it's kinda funny.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 27 2009, 03:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>implying rossi was bitchin about the michilin at the same time stoner was using them.. not true.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jun 27 2009, 09:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i'm pretty much at the point of ignorin ya man. you're about as thick and ....

you bring NOTHING to the table except the same ol ..... keep tyrin though. it's kinda funny.
Nice try djm, ignore him if you must but Rog is correct, you did imply that events were simultaneous when they were actually a season apart.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Jun 27 2009, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nice try djm, ignore him if you must but Rog is correct, you did imply that events were simultaneous when they were actually a season apart.


Its hard for Djm to see thru the red haze

Why not just accept that without a head to head race on identcal bikes, no one will ever know whether Stoner or Lorenzo are faster. And probably if they did have a head to head race on identical bikes Lorenzo would win one day and Stoner the next, and probably there would be very little between them. That is never going to happen, and at the end of the day - what does it really matter.
Racing is about winning races, not necessarily being the fastest.
Was Nicky Hayden the best in 2006.
Yes, because he won the CS but that does not necessarily mean he was the fastest.
Stoner and Ducati were the best in 2007. Stop making excuses for whatever reason, they were the best.
Rossi was the best in 2008.

For what its worth, I actually think the bikes are ery similar, and if the boffins get the set up right, either Yamaha, Honda or Ducati can be the best on any given day.
If the boffins get it right, it makes it easier for the riders to get it right.

I just hope we get another good race, whether Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo or Pedro wins, and
<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%NO RAIN !!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Jun 27 2009, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nice try djm, ignore him if you must but Rog is correct, you did imply that events were simultaneous when they were actually a season apart.


Actually Mick D I would disagree with your perception of it as I read no such inference at all from DJM.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 27 2009, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually Mick D I would disagree with your perception of it as I read no such inference at all from DJM.
Garry

Alright Gaz lets rewind and analyze...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jun 27 2009, 01:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It' my understanding that he was on inferior equipment, but still managed to do well.

on the michelins. wasn't rossi BITCHIN like a mofo about how bad michelins were? and he's THE MAN in gp. was getting special cooked tires just for him (and a few others). if he said they sucked, can you imagine what stoner was getting?

The pertinent part of djm's quote above paraphrased: It was/is djm's understanding that Casey was on inferior equipment in '06, but still managed to do well on the Michelins. Rossi was getting overnight specials but he was still complaining about their performance. If Rossi said the Michelins sucked - how bad was the off-the-shelf rubber that Casey was getting?

Gaz, I don't need to "perceive" an "inference" from djm's comments - its basic reading comprehension. He has presented Casey's rubber woes of '06 as happening coincidentally to Rossi's rubber woes of '07 and expected his ill conceived apples and oranges comparison to go unchallenged then he got pissy with Rog for calling him on it, I simply pointed out that in this specific instance Rog was correct.

If you can present another plausible interpretation of djm's statement in question I'd be happy to listen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Jun 27 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The pertinent part of djm's quote above paraphrased: It was/is djm's understanding that Casey was on inferior equipment in '06, but still managed to do well on the Michelins. Rossi was getting overnight specials but he was still complaining about their performance. If Rossi said the Michelins sucked - how bad was the off-the-shelf rubber that Casey was getting?

Gaz, I don't need to "perceive" an "inference" from djm's comments - its basic reading comprehension. He has presented Casey's rubber woes of '06 as happening coincidentally to Rossi's rubber woes of '07 and expected his ill conceived apples and oranges comparison to go unchallenged then he got pissy with Rog for calling him on it, I simply pointed out that in this specific instance Rog was correct.

If you can present another plausible interpretation of djm's statement in question I'd be happy to listen.


Ok, the full quote from DJM is below.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jun 26 2009, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>just a couple of thoughts on your post rhyko7.

i hear this from other riders all the time that ALL (especially the duc) motogp bikes have beocome "pin it everywhere". that you don't have to let off the gas, etc. (hopper, melandri, etc.) i call bs. next time you're watching a race, LISTEN. they let off the gas allright, and SLOWLY apply it as they near the apex ... hold maintenance throttle, and then apply more as they exit. everytime, everyturn. you want to hear pinning it at the apex? go listen to matt mladin's gsxr 1000 last year. now THAT was electronics. you could hear the engine cutting out. almost sounded like something was wrong! don't get me wrong, i'm sure they have a ton of electronics in motogp that assist with traction, but i just don't buy into the "they just pin it everywhere" ... that it's all electronics now. again, bs.

<span style="color:#FF0000on the 125 and 250 WC's. it' my understanding that he was on inferior equipment, but still managed to do well.

on the michelins. wasn't rossi BITCHIN like a mofo about how bad michelins were? and he's THE MAN in gp. was getting special cooked tires just for him (and a few others). if he said they sucked, can you imagine what stoner was getting?

awesome bike in his hands. and melandri can obviously ride a bike! hayden too. i mean the man DID win a WC in the rossi era. no small feet!

on your last comment, i see where you're going with that, but i'm not so sure. sounds like they are pretty proud of their machine and was a big reason rossi didn't go ride for ducati. he wanted to have more input - hence taking JB with him, and making a TON of progress to make the Yam what it is today.

anyway. it's all just opinions. just food for though. there is no real right answer on any of this stuff.

DJM's first point (red highlight) regarding inferior equipoment refers to CS on teh 125/250 (slightly incorrect as he did have a factory KTM)

His second point (black bold) to me does not link him to referring to the same year so I obviously read it differently.

Quite simply it reads to me that he is saying that CS had Michelins that were not level1 or tier1 tyres - this is a point that is not being argued nor ever really has been.

He then states that Rossi whinged 'like a mofo' and says can we imaging what Stoner was getting.

Yes, I can see that it could be read as same year, but I do not and did not read it that way and I guess it is because this mind knows for a fact that Stoner and Rossi both had Michelins in 2006 but Rossi did not whinge but did so in 2007. Maybe because I am not having any preconceptions or maybe because I know the years in question in my head it means that I do not and did not read it as saying anything of the nature that you and Roger have done.

Moreso, I would doubt it is an attempt to allude anything as simple readily available facts would prove otherwise but maybe DJM made an error, who knows.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 27 2009, 07:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok, the full quote from DJM is below.



DJM's first point (red highlight) regarding inferior equipoment refers to CS on teh 125/250 (slightly incorrect as he did have a factory KTM)

His second point (black bold) to me does not link him to referring to the same year so I obviously read it differently.

Quite simply it reads to me that he is saying that CS had Michelins that were not level1 or tier1 tyres - this is a point that is not being argued nor ever really has been.

He then states that Rossi whinged 'like a mofo' and says can we imaging what Stoner was getting.

Yes, I can see that it could be read as same year, but I do not and did not read it that way and I guess it is because this mind knows for a fact that Stoner and Rossi both had Michelins in 2006 but Rossi did not whinge but did so in 2007. Maybe because I am not having any preconceptions or maybe because I know the years in question in my head it means that I do not and did not read it as saying anything of the nature that you and Roger have done.

Moreso, I would doubt it is an attempt to allude anything as simple readily available facts would prove otherwise but maybe DJM made an error, who knows.

Garry
Ultimately our little tangent is based on djm's somewhat obscure prose and our interpretation thereof. Maybe he can clarify... I initially, briefly, took the statement in red to refer to the 125 & 250 world champions, not championships.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jun 27 2009, 03:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i'm pretty much at the point of ignorin ya man. you're about as thick and ....

well anyway.

you bring NOTHING to the table except the same ol ..... keep tyrin though. it's kinda funny.
like i give a .... about that. you talked bollocks as mick d also pointed out, i called you on it. Now you cry foul Gaz put some spin on your comment for you but you couldn't even clarify it for yourself, you just threaten to ignore. The truth hurts doesn't it. I bring way more to the table than you. Your the so called club racer that judges an 8 times word champs riding ability remember that ? are you 14 years old or something ? so go on ignore me

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jun 26 2009, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lets not forget that prior to his 2006 injury, Capirossi looked in great shape to take the title. Capi, (who is looked on here as some kind of joke by the "knowledgeable ones") was at the sharp end plenty of times on the Duke. Funny, but weve not seen any advance of that magnitude on the bike since Stoner took over as the boss....

Funny how it hurts so many to admit that Capi could ride the Duke and is a great rider. But I suppose, some of the knockers are about 3 years old, and some are just plain thick as ..... But what winds me up, is they then have the gall to slag off Rossi fans! "Oh Rossi fans are all 15 year old girls!" they bleat. Possibly because they are 15 year old boys who hate 15 yr old girls, because they cant get to first base with them.

Dont get me started..

Pete

From 2003 till 2006 Ducati had 27 Podiums (pure coincidence to Stoner’s number I think). With Capirossi being the only one to get more than one win, anyway…

2006 29/10/06 1 BAYLISS Ricardo Tormo
2006 24/09/06 1 CAPIROSSI Motegi
2006 20/08/06 1 CAPIROSSI Brno
2006 26/03/06 1 CAPIROSSI Jerez
2005 24/09/05 1 CAPIROSSI Sepang
2005 17/09/05 1 CAPIROSSI Motegi
2003 15/06/03 1 CAPIROSSI Catalunya
2006 29/10/06 2 CAPIROSSI Ricardo Tormo
2006 10/09/06 2 CAPIROSSI Sepang
2006 04/06/06 2 CAPIROSSI Mugello
2006 21/05/06 2 CAPIROSSI Le Mans
2005 27/08/05 2 CAPIROSSI Brno
2003 19/10/03 2 CAPIROSSI Phillip Island
2003 08/06/03 2 CAPIROSSI Mugello
2006 08/04/06 3 CAPIROSSI Losail
2005 15/10/05 3 CHECA Phillip Island
2005 24/09/05 3 CHECA Sepang
2005 04/06/05 3 CAPIROSSI Mugello
2004 30/10/04 3 BAYLISS Ricardo Tormo
2004 16/10/04 3 CAPIROSSI Phillip Island
2004 01/10/04 3 XAUS Losail
2003 02/11/03 3 CAPIROSSI Ricardo Tormo
2003 07/09/03 3 CAPIROSSI Estoril
2003 17/08/03 3 BAYLISS Brno
2003 27/07/03 3 BAYLISS Sachsenring
2003 11/05/03 3 BAYLISS Jerez
2003 05/04/03 3 CAPIROSSI Susuka

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 27 2009, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>like i give a .... about that. you talked bollocks as mick d also pointed out, i called you on it. Now you cry foul Gaz put some spin on your comment for you but you couldn't even clarify it for yourself, you just threaten to ignore. The truth hurts doesn't it. I bring way more to the table than you. Your the so called club racer that judges an 8 times word champs riding ability remember that ? are you 14 years old or something ? so go on ignore me


There was no spin put on it at all, that was simply the way I read it.

Different strokes I guess.

But yes, ignore at this point due to differing opinions be they considered fair, foul or fanboy opens up the risk of missing some insightful posts






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 28 2009, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There was no spin put on it at all, that was simply the way I read it.

Different strokes I guess.

But yes, ignore at this point due to differing opinions be they considered fair, foul or fanboy opens up the risk of missing some insightful posts






Garry
well obviously mick and myself read it differently. but rather than him comming in and clarifing what he ment he came in with this hand bag responce indicating that i caught him out
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(djm @ Jun 27 2009, 09:03 AM)
i'm pretty much at the point of ignorin ya man. you're about as thick and ....

you bring NOTHING to the table except the same ol ..... keep tyrin though. it's kinda funny.
All i said to provoke that responce was
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>funny, i thought stoner was on the michilins in 06 (when they were good ) and rossi was complaining about them in 07 (when stoner was on stones) get your facts straight mate !
to be honest i find that funny , most of his posts are spouting hatred and disrespect to rossi and his fans and his comparing rossi and stoner on michilins was just another thinly veiled dig at rossi because we have been giving stoner a hard time over his whinging.
that see where this confusion started
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(djm @ Jun 26 2009, 07:07 PM)

on the michelins. wasn't rossi BITCHIN like a mofo about how bad michelins were? and he's THE MAN in gp. was getting special cooked tires just for him (and a few others). if he said they sucked, can you imagine what stoner was getting?

rossi was ' bitchin' about how bad michilins were during the 07 season as were many other riders.

stoner use michilins in 06 so to compare stoners 06 tyres to the 07 tyres rossi complained about with the intent to show rossi as a whinner and casey has hard done by was stretching it a tad

djm has admited himself michilin were crap at the time rossi "bitched" about them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>ya, but michaelm, ya gotta admit, michelin has been struggling for some time now. they get it right for a few races, but overall .... not so much.
link

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>i think next year whether we have a "spec" tire rule or not, we are going to have only one brand that ppl will be on. i'm sure everyone right now is trying to jump ship!
link

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>i think rossi acts like a spoiled little brat, and has gotten his way for far too long. nobody has really taken it to him, and i'm quite enjoying seeing him, and his fans squirm.
link
Im surprised your not on my ignore list looking at the gems you bring to the table.
.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>pull rossi's .... out all yer mouths and you might see there are other riders out there racing.
So the next time you point fingers at rossi fans Danny, just look at the crap we have to put up with !
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>maybe i just got tired of everyone rooting for rossi all these years, and giving him a pass for everything he does. if any other rider does anything, they seem to get crucified for it.

it's sorta like rooting for the patriots the past couple of years. way to easy to jump on the bandwagon. way to easy to root for the winning team. sure, there may be some true fans out there, but for the most part ppl were just rooting for the team they knew (or had a higher percentage) of winning.
So we should stop supporting someone because they win ? you think rossi fans are band waggon jumpers ? did you not see how many of his fans still supported him when he was losing ? you want to pull your .... out of your own ..., you have a high opinion of yourself which make's you look down your nose at others. you think rossi fans are not race fans ? do you think supporting a loser gives you some sort of moral high ground

^^^^^
.... Rog it must have taken you some time to dig all that up

Your spot on thought, Djm is a gobshite

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jun 28 2009, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>^^^^^
.... Rog it must have taken you some time to dig all that up

Your spot on thought, Djm is a gobshite
Tiz easy when you know how besides ,its not as if he has done that many posts to look through

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 28 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>to be honest i find that funny , most of his posts are spouting hatred and disrespect to rossi and his fans and his comparing rossi and stoner on michilins was just another thinly veiled dig at rossi because we have been giving stoner a hard time over his whinging.
that see where this confusion started

To be totally honest Roger, I had noticed that DJM does come in strong at times and therefore I choose to ignore, disregard or read through his posts a bit.

If it was a dig at Rossi by saying 'same year as CS' then IMO as I said, facts immediately make the post irrelevant and show DJM up as either not researching, not knowing or simply being a journalist (never let the facts get in the way of a good story)



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 28 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So we should stop supporting someone because they win ? you think rossi fans are band waggon jumpers ? did you not see how many of his fans still supported him when he was losing ? you want to pull your .... out of your own ..., you have a high opinion of yourself which make's you look down your nose at others. you think rossi fans are not race fans ? do you think supporting a loser gives you some sort of moral high ground

I originally had to look twice because I thought this may have been referring to my posts having been quoted earlier but realised quickly that you wouldn't refer to me in that way and woul;d throw in some Aussie reference for a bit of fun.

As for the Rossi fans argument I will say here and now that I do beleive that there are Rossi fans and then Rossi fans.

The Rossi fans are primarily motorcycle racing fans who admire and respect the skill involved in racing these beasts at their maximum. The enjoy racing, be it the sight, sound, atmosphere an entertainment, but they are firstly motorcycle racing fans. Like most such fans they gravitate their support to a certain rider or riders, sometimes drawn by patriotism, sometimes the underdog, or a personality, or brand loyalty etc, well you get the drift.

Then there are the Rossi fans that were never interested in motorcycle racing and will not be interested once Rossi moves to F1, Ral,ly or his next venture as they support him and not the sport. These are much like you find in many sports where they are people captured by a personality and who can become obsessive about that personality and sometimes dangerously so. Whilst there will be a number of these people who have been initiated into motorcycle sport by the Rossi phenonenom and who will remain to become fans, there are a large number whome I suspect will walk away when Rossi retires. Sadly, it is generally within this group that we get the 'fanboys' who allow emotion to overrule common sense or logic much to their detriment and often that of threads trying to maintain a semblance of discussion.

The latter of course applies to all riders, each has that type of fan and as an Aussie I will say outright that Stoner does have those as well, but to me Rossi is the king in that regard (not Rossi personally but the phenomenom).







Garry

stoners first season was a series of DNF and crashes

lorenzo is in his first season, and he is a title contender, currently AHEAD of stoner....

i'll let facts speak for themselves