which better Lorenzo or stoner

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Jul 3 2009, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Remember though Rog, there were initially four engine options presented to Rossi and Burgess for them to choose from - and they chose the long bang motor. Also, in poaching Rossi, Yamaha made considerable contractual dispensation, and upped their game both in investment, resources and development. Vale also hand picked his crew, largely the Aussie team from Repsol Honda which 'defected' to Yamaha with him. None of the aforementioned options were availed to previous factory riders associated with the M1 (Barros, Checa, Melandri and Max).

Barros claimed when he rode the M1, it was so savage, it was near impossible to podium on it - let alone win a race. In spite of the fact that the Yamaha that Vale inherited in '04 was unquestionably inferior to the factory RC211v's and probably the customer bikes as well, and woefully lacking in development, it was not the screamer that previous incumbents had tried to tame.

However, Max on the other hand, eventually got his wish - a Factory Honda on Michelins, the so called holy grail. It seemed when Rossi left, an unbeatable, near perfect race bike was steered the wrong way by a raft of conflicting objectives. Too much input and no direction - HRC development became a rudderless ship. Max unquestionably had a machine which was of championship winning potential - even at Pons where he bemoaned a lack of new parts - but was ultimately forced to walk the plank due to his attitude. When he eventually inherited Rossi's old ride, which he had consistently attributed to Vale's success, he was unable to deliver. In the meantime, the M1 under Rossi and Burgess's direction only got stronger, until Yamaha took a wrong turn with the chassis in '06.
You have a great memory mate. i had forgotten about the 06 chassis woes

Spies...debate over

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 3 2009, 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You make me argue against myself barry. Rossi has probably in most years made a very significant contribution to the quality of his equipment, and organising to be on the best equipment has always been part of being the best, to say nothing of the teams with the best equipment generally endeavouring to and being in a position to acquire the best riders.

I do agree that if stoner did against all odds end up on better equipment in 2007 rossi and his fans were not in a strong position to complain though.
All the blind Stoner fans tell me if they think that he didn't have best bike in 2007 and he is best rider then why he didn't win in 2008.There is old saying that you not real champion until you defend your championship and in my view Stoner hasn't done that yet so there is still a question mark there.

Infact his 8 years in 125,250 and motogp he only manage to win 1 championship compare to Rossi 12 years in 125,250,500,990 and 800 he manage to win 8 titles and few times defended his title sucessfully as well.

For your record i can tell you that Rossi has won championships on inferior bikes as well.His first year on yamaha and last year again on yamaha because i strongly believe that last year Ducati had a faster bike compare to yamaha but Rossi still manage to win.

Don't get me wrong he is excellent rider but to compare him with Rossi, i think its too early give him few more years and then we will see where he stands.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Jul 4 2009, 02:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why do you disagree with that Barry? - it was certainly the best all round package, and could outdrag anything on the straights. Remember the first race at Qatar?


.....................................................

"There must be some obscure reason our hero didn't win!! "





................. need more emoticons ...............

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 3 2009, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not slagging off stoner but, the 07 duke was the best bike and it was not developed in any way by stoner. Stoner has had the bike for 2 seasons and is now a fair way into his third yet the bike is now not considered the best. If casey is better than rossi as bm claims then surley he would have kept the bikes edge by his own development. now his fans claim ducati are building the bike to suit more riders which it detrimental to stoner . Imagine what would be said here if a rossi fan said that about the yam
There is little evidence that stoner has exceptional bike development skills, and plenty that rossi does have such skills. Even the extent of jb's involvement is uncertain to me; it is possible jb's greatest skill was to pick doohan and rossi as the riders with whom to have long term associations, as I don't recall wayne gardner's honda being a smooth easy to ride bike in his championship year. However I do think that the relative financial and engineering resources of ducati and yamaha may also have had some bearing on the development of the respective bikes since 2007.

I agree that it would be laughable to suggest that yamaha would develop their bike in a direction whch did not favour rossi, but realistically rossi was never likely to switch marques again either. I remain intrigued that there appears to have been little talk about long term mutual commitment by ducati or stoner, and I doubt he is holding out for more money.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 3 2009, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not slagging off stoner but, the 07 duke was the best bike and it was not developed in any way by stoner. Stoner has had the bike for 2 seasons and is now a fair way into his third yet the bike is now not considered the best. If casey is better than rossi as bm claims then surley he would have kept the bikes edge by his own development. now his fans claim ducati are building the bike to suit more riders which it detrimental to stoner . Imagine what would be said here if a rossi fan said that about the yam


Just going to play for a moment, so please do humour.

Many people point to the superior speed of the Ducati down the straight as indicating that it was the best bike but IMO this is not a true indication as MotoGP is not run in a straight line (after all, a top fuel drag car is not the best vehicle for circuit racing but is the fastest). So, was the Ducati the best handling package and I suspect all open minded people who remember that year will say that no, it was not the best handling bike, never has been and never will be in MotoGP.

So, was it the best bike?

If you use statistics then you have to say that in 2007 the Ducati was by far and away the best bike as it won more GP's (11 from 18), won the manufacturers title by 81 points from Honda (and 111 from Yamaha), the teams title by 164 points from Repsol and the World Championship by 125 Points (have I missed anything?). So statistics prove that the Ducatie wast he best bike of 2007

If the above is true than in subsequent years the statistics prove that the Yamaha is the best bike.

Roger, you mention as an argument to BM that if Stoner was better than the bike should be better developed and IMO that is a matter of opinion. Correct me by all means but BM says that Stoner is a better rider (a fact that IMO is blatantly wrong) but that does not make him a better all round package (rider/racer/development etc).

It is easy to say that the teams #1 should develop a bike that others can ride, but IMO this is wrong as the lead rider should develop a bike that they can ride and if others can then also use that bike to achieve top results that is an added bonus. I also believe that Yamaha do actually have in the lineup at the moment the best team lineup we have seen (in skill terms) in an extraordinarily long time and we (you do not, others seem to at times) should not overlook this.

These two guys are talents that come along rarely and could likely ride a Vespa to a podium and I believe that they could ride any bike in the paddock to a top 5 today, with no development time (Rossi probably top 3).

Oops got a long way off topic, sorry.







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 3 2009, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All the blind Stoner fans tell me if they think that he didn't have best bike in 2007 and he is best rider then why he didn't win in 2008.


The smart alec answer is simply because 2008 was a new year and not 2007.

He could well have had the best bike in 2007 (backed up by statistics) but in 2008 the best bike was the Yamaha and specifically the FIAT Yamaha of Rossi.

Simply put, just because you win one year does not mean that you will or can the following year as following your logic, the title should be won each year by the same rider else it be a fail mark against that rider.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 3 2009, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There is old saying that you not real champion until you defend your championship and in my view Stoner hasn't done that yet so there is still a question mark there.

Absolutely true that Stoner has not defended his championship yet, but should that diminish any of his achievements to date?

IMO, the short answer is no, he has one top class world championship and there are many riders who never achieved that who would readily give body parts to have that title against their name.

To say that because he has not won multiple championships that he is not a worthy champion diminishes the memories and achievements os riders such as Gardner, KR Jr, Criville and perhaps the best of the one championship rider - Schwantz. If you genuinely believe that Stoner must win a second title to be considered, what of the riders listed above, are they champions?


Now, that all types I do personally think that Stoner has more to do before he reaches the levels where I personally consider him a 'legend' of the sport, but I am an extremely hard marker in that aspect and expect a lot from those I consider champions. As an Aussie I do hope he achieves it but I have doubts as the field is extremely strong today and will be more so over the next few years so the competition will be extremely tough.

But I ask this to people.

If we are to accept that Rossi is the GOAT and a rider that is a pure freak, one unparralled in the history of the sport, is it then fair to 'mark' people lower because they do not become multiple champions?






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 4 2009, 07:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just going to play for a moment, so please do humour.

Many people point to the superior speed of the Ducati down the straight as indicating that it was the best bike but IMO this is not a true indication as MotoGP is not run in a straight line (after all, a top fuel drag car is not the best vehicle for circuit racing but is the fastest). So, was the Ducati the best handling package and I suspect all open minded people who remember that year will say that no, it was not the best handling bike, never has been and never will be in MotoGP.

So, was it the best bike?

If you use statistics then you have to say that in 2007 the Ducati was by far and away the best bike as it won more GP's (11 from 18), won the manufacturers title by 81 points from Honda (and 111 from Yamaha), the teams title by 164 points from Repsol and the World Championship by 125 Points (have I missed anything?). So statistics prove that the Ducatie wast he best bike of 2007

If the above is true than in subsequent years the statistics prove that the Yamaha is the best bike.

Roger, you mention as an argument to BM that if Stoner was better than the bike should be better developed and IMO that is a matter of opinion. Correct me by all means but BM says that Stoner is a better rider (a fact that IMO is blatantly wrong) but that does not make him a better all round package (rider/racer/development etc).

It is easy to say that the teams #1 should develop a bike that others can ride, but IMO this is wrong as the lead rider should develop a bike that they can ride and if others can then also use that bike to achieve top results that is an added bonus. I also believe that Yamaha do actually have in the lineup at the moment the best team lineup we have seen (in skill terms) in an extraordinarily long time and we (you do not, others seem to at times) should not overlook this.

These two guys are talents that come along rarely and could likely ride a Vespa to a podium and I believe that they could ride any bike in the paddock to a top 5 today, with no development time (Rossi probably top 3).

Oops got a long way off topic, sorry.







Garry
Not a lot i can disagree with in your post mate but on the subject of the 07 duke being the better bike. Yes it was clearly the fastest in a straight line but more importantly it was the fastest out of the corners. I agree the yam appeared to be the smoother handling bike but the duke was by no means a bad handling bike. If it were ,casey would have been crashing out on it. We saw the bike squirm a bit but thats just the chassis doing its job in flexing. Although the duke was the better bike in 07 i don't believe it to have been miles better, just had the edge ! These bike are sometimes only 10th's a lap apart.

Do you remember me saying in 07 after qatar that i felt ducati showed there hand to early ? In doing so it forced yamaha to invest heavily, something ducati would struggle to match. Maybe im being a little un fair saying stoner cant develop the bike enough to keep the edge. Ducati have invested a lot in there carbon frame and swing arm the latter being dropped for the old ally one, i respect them for trying this prototype stuff but maybe there money would be better spent in other areas.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 4 2009, 07:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The smart alec answer is simply because 2008 was a new year and not 2007.

He could well have had the best bike in 2007 (backed up by statistics) but in 2008 the best bike was the Yamaha and specifically the FIAT Yamaha of Rossi.

Simply put, just because you win one year does not mean that you will or can the following year as following your logic, the title should be won each year by the same rider else it be a fail mark against that rider.




Absolutely true that Stoner has not defended his championship yet, but should that diminish any of his achievements to date?

IMO, the short answer is no, he has one top class world championship and there are many riders who never achieved that who would readily give body parts to have that title against their name.

To say that because he has not won multiple championships that he is not a worthy champion diminishes the memories and achievements os riders such as Gardner, KR Jr, Criville and perhaps the best of the one championship rider - Schwantz. If you genuinely believe that Stoner must win a second title to be considered, what of the riders listed above, are they champions?


Now, that all types I do personally think that Stoner has more to do before he reaches the levels where I personally consider him a 'legend' of the sport, but I am an extremely hard marker in that aspect and expect a lot from those I consider champions. As an Aussie I do hope he achieves it but I have doubts as the field is extremely strong today and will be more so over the next few years so the competition will be extremely tough.

But I ask this to people.

If we are to accept that Rossi is the GOAT and a rider that is a pure freak, one unparralled in the history of the sport, is it then fair to 'mark' people lower because they do not become multiple champions?

Garry

Gaz, some good points there in your post and i agree with them as well but no way in the world i am trying to undermine Stoner 07 championship run.

My point is after only one title in 8 years, people started comparing him with Rossi is bit unfair.All i am saying give him another 5 years and then we will see where he stands.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 4 2009, 01:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gaz, some good points there in your post and i agree with them as well but no way in the world i am trying to undermine Stoner 07 championship run.

My point is after only one title in 8 years, people started comparing him with Rossi is bit unfair.All i am saying give him another 5 years and then we will see where he stands.
Absolutely. For comparisons to rossi you need to go to hailwood, agostini, lawson, doohan and their ilk.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 4 2009, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not a lot i can disagree with in your post mate but on the subject of the 07 duke being the better bike. Yes it was clearly the fastest in a straight line but more importantly it was the fastest out of the corners. I agree the yam appeared to be the smoother handling bike but the duke was by no means a bad handling bike. If it were ,casey would have been crashing out on it. We saw the bike squirm a bit but thats just the chassis doing its job in flexing. Although the duke was the better bike in 07 i don't believe it to have been miles better, just had the edge ! These bike are sometimes only 10th's a lap apart.

Do you remember me saying in 07 after qatar that i felt ducati showed there hand to early ? In doing so it forced yamaha to invest heavily, something ducati would struggle to match. Maybe im being a little un fair saying stoner cant develop the bike enough to keep the edge. Ducati have invested a lot in there carbon frame and swing arm the latter being dropped for the old ally one, i respect them for trying this prototype stuff but maybe there money would be better spent in other areas.


I agree when you say Ducati will struggle to match Yamaha's spending. The investment potential of Yamahaucati is probably around >100:1 if the need arises. Better to catch them early with their pants down and make them panic and chase all year. A head to head battle is placed safely in Yamaha's hand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 3 2009, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Spies...debate over
SBK is trying like hell to keep him there. It looks like he is going to take the points lead in the next few races unless Haga gets it together. I would like to see him in GP instead of SBK although SBK has better racing right now. TOugh decision but no matter what ...... SPIES BABY!!!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cygnus88 @ Jul 6 2009, 04:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>now lorenzo a miles way better than stoner
look @ laguna seca whan lorenzo injure he can ride for podium and give a presure on rossi.
stoner just injure a little bit @ hand he cry like a baby and fall when in the front ( mentally down by rossi)



Ok, well like WTF????

What race did you watch ......................... seriously.

Yes, Lorenzo rode magnifiecntly through pain and finished third, behind Rossi and Pedrosa but in front of Stoner.

No, Stoner did not fall when in front as per your comments and yes he is injured or ill.

Yes, painkilling injections are wonderful and allow people to compete when otherwise they would be laid up in bed or a hospital (still hate the .......s though, bloody pain killers allowed my team to be beat in a grand final once)

So, you have either watched a hashed together 2008/2009 replay, or are a non-Stoner loving Pinky type poster.








Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cygnus88 @ Jul 6 2009, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>now lorenzo a miles way better than stoner
look @ laguna seca whan lorenzo injure he can ride for podium and give a presure on rossi.
stoner just injure a little bit @ hand he cry like a baby and fall when in the front ( mentally down by rossi)




and the difference between you and Pinky is??

though I do agree with the "unmentionable impetus" of your post ..... Stoner is still the man to beat thats for sure. Rossi knows that to be any less than two whole race wins in front of Stoner is within his "catching up distance".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 6 2009, 04:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

and the difference between you and Pinky is??

though I do agree with the "unmentionable impetus" of your post ..... Stoner is still the man to beat thats for sure. Rossi knows that to be any less than two whole race wins in front of Stoner is within his "catching up distance".
It is Pinky you fool. He just uses this persona for things other than Hayden bashing

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Jul 6 2009, 07:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is Pinky you fool. He just uses this persona for things other than Hayden bashing


Ahhhh I see ..... didn't realise that ........ so is Pinky that guy called "Rog." as well then!!??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 6 2009, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ahhhh I see ..... didn't realise that ........ so is Pinky that guy called "Rog." as well then!!??
Stop sooking berry, im sure casey will be the man to beat again some day. Roger this roger that sook sook sook bla bla bla

7241wned_motorcycle.jpg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 6 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>7241wned_motorcycle.jpg]

Was at that very spot on the circuit on Saturday picking up fallen riders and again on Sunday when I took the Police accident investigation to the scene of what was initially thought to be a nasty one (chopper landed in the background).

The rider on the ground is the current ASBK (ASC) champion Glen Allerton and I do have to say that the pic is a top shot.

For those wondering, that is taken between Turns 1 and 2 at Oran Park (is more on entry to T2). The circuit will disappear at the end of this year to make way for bloody lego boxes called houses.

Any aussies may be interested to know that the last Motorcycle race will be a return of the 6Hour.



<< off topic stuff posted anyway >>





Garry