which better Lorenzo or stoner

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bill88 @ Jul 3 2009, 01:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>lorenzo is smarter than stoner i think.. more of a thinking racer.. even the way he closed the door at every turn at the final lap at catalunya, the defending lines he was taking, he was amazing, forced rossi to give everything he had to win..
if we are talking about skill and ability, the top 4 are all very close, they are the best. i'd simply say that valentino is just a bit better at braking and overtaking. but i'd rate lorenzo higher than stoner. the biggest threat to valentino's championship. i just have the feeling lorenzo sees things differently, he seems to me smarter than stoner. the rest of 2009, and in 2010, lorenzo and rossi will be very close at every race, i think. and i'm sure jorge can beat valentino the same way he got beaten, and that day may not be far from now. i wouldnt say the same about stoner though.
I think it is entirely possible that lorenzo is smarter than stoner. I agree that it takes enormous talent which lorenzo obviously has to defend lines etc against rossi. However I also think doing this on the same bike as rossi is different than doing it on one which has totally different handling, acceleration etc. Given that few would argue that rossi is the benchmark it may reflect even more credit for lorenzo, but in the context of stoner's ability or lack thereof to dogfight with rossi the different characteristics of the bike do come into it imo.

I also recall a bike called the aprilia cube with huge top speed/acceleration/straight line advantages that didn't win many races.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 3 2009, 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No I understand english just fine. It just didn't make sence since Stoner made the podium but where is all this whining ........ people talk about?


Read my reply again and your post I quoted

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bill88 @ Jul 3 2009, 01:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>this year both bikes are pretty much equal.. there is a balance..

I'd say its a stretch to say these bikes are near to equal.

it's funny to see how some weeks ago there was a topic about 'who's better b/n rossi and lorenzo' and just after Catalunya and Assen the new topic is about lorenzo and stoner.
did just those 2 races make lorenzo worse all at once? (assuming rossi is better than stoner, which I believe but don't dare to state objectively)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 3 2009, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it is entirely possible that lorenzo is smarter than stoner. I agree that it takes enormous talent which lorenzo obviously has to defend lines etc against rossi. However I also think doing this on the same bike as rossi is different than doing it on one which has totally different handling, acceleration etc. Given that few would argue that rossi is the benchmark it may reflect even more credit for lorenzo, but in the context of stoner's ability or lack thereof to dogfight with rossi the different characteristics of the bike do come into it imo.

I also recall a bike called the aprilia cube with huge top speed/acceleration/straight line advantages that didn't win many races.
Maybe you will also recall the cube used an electronic throttle system they called "ride by wire" where sensors were used instead of cables. This is probably the case on all the bikes now but back then it was new revelutionary stuff. Trouble was it made the bike un ridable due to the throttle being more like an on off switch rather than a nice linier action. so yes the bike had power but would have been more suited to a drag strip than a race circuit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squarewheel @ Jul 3 2009, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>it's funny to see how some weeks ago there was a topic about 'who's better b/n rossi and lorenzo' and just after Catalunya and Assen the new topic is about lorenzo and stoner.
did just those 2 races make lorenzo worse all at once? (assuming rossi is better than stoner, which I believe but don't dare to state objectively)
I don't think anyone on here has ever said stoner was better than rossi, and even rabid stoner fans have mostly not claimed he was as good, just that he probably deserved some credit rather than condemnation for winning the world championship in 2007.

They do run something called the motogp world championship each year to decide who is the best rider, and having a bike good enough to allow this has always been part of the game, and if the yamaha is better than the ducati this year which is not necessarily the case stoner fans should have no complaint, and the converse is true (imo) for other years. At this stage the order you imply would seem likely for this year's world championship, ie rossi followed by lorenzo and stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 3 2009, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so yes the bike had power but would have been more suited to a drag strip than a race circuit.
You mean like most riders other than stoner have found the 800 ducati hitherto ?.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 3 2009, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think anyone on here has ever said stoner was better than rossi, and even rabid stoner fans have mostly not claimed he was as good, just that he probably deserved some credit rather than condemnation for winning the world championship in 2007.

They do run something called the motogp world championship each year to decide who is the best rider, and having a bike good enough to allow this has always been part of the game, and if the yamaha is better than the ducati this year which is not necessarily the case stoner fans should have no complaint, and the converse is true (imo) for other years. At this stage the order you imply would seem likely for this year's world championship, ie rossi followed by lorenzo and stoner.
link

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Irrespective of how much you and the millions of other fans hate Stoner ...... he's a pretty amazing rider, prbably the best in the field at the moment, its hard for you to accept because of your blind idolisation of Rossi thats all

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 3 2009, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>link
Even I do not spend as much time on here as you roger, and I realised when I posted that assiduous search could probably find an exception, but frequent posters, even the reviled cscvaw when stoner was beating rossi, have mostly not claimed that stoner is better than rossi.

Double post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 3 2009, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think anyone on here has ever said stoner was better than rossi, and even rabid stoner fans have mostly not claimed he was as good, just that he probably deserved some credit rather than condemnation for winning the world championship in 2007.

They do run something called the motogp world championship each year to decide who is the best rider, and having a bike good enough to allow this has always been part of the game, and if the yamaha is better than the ducati this year which is not necessarily the case stoner fans should have no complaint, and the converse is true (imo) for other years. At this stage the order you imply would seem likely for this year's world championship, ie rossi followed by lorenzo and stoner.
michaelm, I pull for Rossi but I've got total respect and admiration for Stoner. I was just saying that when Lorenzo won his 2nd race this year some started comparing him to rossi, while just after two second places behind the doctor they seemed to consider him a little step behind, together with stoner (as of this part of the season's contents, as you correctly stated); it's been just curious to notice the poll progression: first 'Lorenzo better than rossi?' and then 'lorenzo better than stoner?'
In the end I was speaking more about lorenzo, it wasn't about stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 3 2009, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it is entirely possible that lorenzo is smarter than stoner. I agree that it takes enormous talent which lorenzo obviously has to defend lines etc against rossi. However I also think doing this on the same bike as rossi is different than doing it on one which has totally different handling, acceleration etc. Given that few would argue that rossi is the benchmark it may reflect even more credit for lorenzo, but in the context of stoner's ability or lack thereof to dogfight with rossi the different characteristics of the bike do come into it imo.

I also recall a bike called the aprilia cube with huge top speed/acceleration/straight line advantages that didn't win many races.

yes, you're right. for sure the bikes are different and require a different style from the rider.. surely we cant be sure about anything, besides it's a bit strange, at least, us judging who is best.. anyway, we'll know for sure by the end of the year, that's why they race! the championship standings decide who is better!

as for the aprilia, i started watching motogp by that time.. 2003,2004.. so i dont really know what kind of bike it was. i think it wouldnt be a very good one though, cant remember it scoring a podium or being close to the front. also the riders, the most important part.. shane byrne i think? mcwilliams? that time there were about 5 rcv in the top six. and one yamaha!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 3 2009, 10:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'd say its a stretch to say these bikes are near to equal.

why? stoner said his bike is fantastic, so i'd assume he has no problem with it. also the laptimes are so close, the differences are only tenths of a second. the tyres, identical. i think you would agree, they are at least, more equal than the previous years.

what keeps stoner in 3rd place is his illness, i'd say. hope he's going to be ok from now on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bill88 @ Jul 3 2009, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>as for the aprilia, i started watching motogp by that time.. 2003,2004.. so i dont really know what kind of bike it was. i think it wouldnt be a very good one though, cant remember it scoring a podium or being close to the front. also the riders, the most important part.. shane byrne i think? mcwilliams? that time there were about 5 rcv in the top six. and one yamaha!
Your post was eminently reasonable, the reference to aprilia was really in regard to an old argument not very relevant to your post regarding straight line speed not being everything; I was glad to see that roger agreed with me .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 3 2009, 08:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think anyone on here has ever said stoner was better than rossi,

I do ....

and the main reason I say it is it has become glaringly obvious to all and sundry, at last that not many guys racing against Rossi have as good equipment.

I don't specifically know when or why but since coming to Motogp Rossi has had the best equipment. Back in the changeover days of 500's to 990's it was ridiculously obvious. I don't know why they bothered letting the 500's try to compete with the 990's.

Its part of why Rossi only went Yamaha with JB, I often wonder how things would be if JB stayed at Honda?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 3 2009, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do ....

and the main reason I say it is it has become glaringly obvious to all and sundry, at last that not many guys racing against Rossi have as good equipment.

I don't specifically know when or why but since coming to Motogp Rossi has had the best equipment. Back in the changeover days of 500's to 990's it was ridiculously obvious. I don't know why they bothered letting the 500's try to compete with the 990's.

Its part of why Rossi only went Yamaha with JB, I often wonder how things would be if JB stayed at Honda?
One title in 9 years since he started his career in 125 and then moved to 250,motogp and you calling him the best.All i can say Statistics never lie and keep wondering you are just wasting your time by doing that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 3 2009, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do ....

and the main reason I say it is it has become glaringly obvious to all and sundry, at last that not many guys racing against Rossi have as good equipment.

I don't specifically know when or why but since coming to Motogp Rossi has had the best equipment. Back in the changeover days of 500's to 990's it was ridiculously obvious. I don't know why they bothered letting the 500's try to compete with the 990's.

Its part of why Rossi only went Yamaha with JB, I often wonder how things would be if JB stayed at Honda?
You make me argue against myself barry. Rossi has probably in most years made a very significant contribution to the quality of his equipment, and organising to be on the best equipment has always been part of being the best, to say nothing of the teams with the best equipment generally endeavouring to and being in a position to acquire the best riders.

I do agree that if stoner did against all odds end up on better equipment in 2007 rossi and his fans were not in a strong position to complain though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 3 2009, 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You make me argue against myself barry.

Rossi has probably in most years made a very significant contribution to the quality of his equipment,

and organising to be on the best equipment has always been part of being the best, to say nothing of the teams with the best equipment generally endeavouring to and being in a position to acquire the best riders.

I do agree that if stoner did against all odds end up on better equipment in 2007 rossi and his fans were not in a strong position to complain though.
That why this place is the mad house

Correct, The yam according to biaggi was a piece of .... when rossi first took it over and the rc211v was the best bike. Well biaggi couldn't win on the best bike but rossi not only won the the ..... yam. He developed it to be the best bike. only the best rders can do that imo.

Not slagging off stoner but, the 07 duke was the best bike and it was not developed in any way by stoner. Stoner has had the bike for 2 seasons and is now a fair way into his third yet the bike is now not considered the best. If casey is better than rossi as bm claims then surley he would have kept the bikes edge by his own development. now his fans claim ducati are building the bike to suit more riders which it detrimental to stoner . Imagine what would be said here if a rossi fan said that about the yam

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 4 2009, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the 07 duke was the best bike

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 3 2009, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That why this place is the mad house

Correct, The yam according to biaggi was a piece of .... when rossi first took it over and the rc211v was the best bike. Well biaggi couldn't win on the best bike but rossi not only won the the ..... yam. He developed it to be the best bike. only the best rders can do that imo.
Remember though Rog, there were initially four engine options presented to Rossi and Burgess for them to choose from - and they chose the long bang motor. Also, in poaching Rossi, Yamaha made considerable contractual dispensation, and upped their game both in investment, resources and development. Vale also hand picked his crew, largely the Aussie team from Repsol Honda which 'defected' to Yamaha with him. None of the aforementioned options were availed to previous factory riders associated with the M1 (Barros, Checa, Melandri and Max).

Barros claimed when he rode the M1, it was so savage, it was near impossible to podium on it - let alone win a race. In spite of the fact that the Yamaha that Vale inherited in '04 was unquestionably inferior to the factory RC211v's and probably the customer bikes as well, and woefully lacking in development, it was not the screamer that previous incumbents had tried to tame.

However, Max on the other hand, eventually got his wish - a Factory Honda on Michelins, the so called holy grail. It seemed when Rossi left, an unbeatable, near perfect race bike was steered the wrong way by a raft of conflicting objectives. Too much input and no direction - HRC development became a rudderless ship. Max unquestionably had a machine which was of championship winning potential - even at Pons where he bemoaned a lack of new parts - but was ultimately forced to walk the plank due to his attitude. When he eventually inherited Rossi's old ride, which he had consistently attributed to Vale's success, he was unable to deliver. In the meantime, the M1 under Rossi and Burgess's direction only got stronger, until Yamaha took a wrong turn with the chassis in '06.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 3 2009, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
Why do you disagree with that Barry? - it was certainly the best all round package, and could outdrag anything on the straights. Remember the first race at Qatar?