which better Lorenzo or stoner

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jun 25 2009, 11:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm gonna say Jorge Ive believed in him since he came to the big bikes. IMO Stoner is not the same rider when he doesn't have a bike that allows him to clear off.

In 2007, anyone could see the Duke had the raw speed advantage, and Stoner's ability and talent allowed him to exploit this and take the title. Since the Honda and the Yam caught up in speed, Stoner is having to fight for the wins, and I think it's fair to say he gets rattled during close racing. Nothing unusual there.

Lorenzo is going head to head with Rossi on the same bike, and fighting him week in week out. His reaction to Rossi's comment after the last race was awesome. Not losing his cool and saying how he had lost respect for him when it got close, but saying wait til next time.

Jorge takes it for me.

Pete
+ 1 my moneys on the Lollipop kid

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (is200 @ Jun 26 2009, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner for sure.

They are both on equal points and Lorenzo is on the best bike in the field, where as Casey is on a bike that in anyother hands would finish in p11.

You only have to look at the body language of the 2 bikes to see that M1 is sooooo much sweeter than the Duke. So the net result has to suggest that Casey is doing the same job as Lorenzo on inferior machinery.
doesn't matter where others finish on the duc, fact is casey can ride it so theres no dis-advatage for him at all. The yam works no better for rossi and jorge than the duc works for casey.

Thats because rossi can develop a good race bike, casey couldn't develop a cold. You say "the body language of the bike", i dont see riders getting spat off it so what do you mean ?

how long before fp2?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>doesn't matter where others finish on the duc, fact is casey can ride it so theres no dis-advatage for him at all. The yam works no better for rossi and jorge than the duc works for casey.

Thats because rossi can develop a good race bike, casey couldn't develop a cold. You say "the body language of the bike", i dont see riders getting spat off it so what do you mean ?
These 2 arguments would appear inconsistent roger. If he has no disadvantage because the ducati works fine for him, with which I tend to agree, then he can develop a bike for himself at least. Who the hell else is he supposed to develop it for?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jun 26 2009, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner by a bee's .....
I believe the more precise technical term is an ettingshausenth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jun 26 2009, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>These 2 arguments would appear inconsistent roger. If he has no disadvantage because the ducati works fine for him, with which I tend to agree, then he can develop a bike for himself at least. Who the hell else is he supposed to develop it for?
that was my point mike and reading your quote i can see the confusion. my point is , yes casey can ride the duke and only casey. where as i expect any class rider could ride the yam to a respectable finish because of the masterful development by rossi /jb, but this can not be seen to dis-advantage stoner. his bike works for him just fine.

The big question for me on duc development is, does casey develop the bike for himself or does he just adapt to it, A lot of his fans would imply the latter seeing they say its all casey, proof nowone else can ride it. cant have it both ways

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jun 25 2009, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> can't believe that just came from YOU curve. wow.

but seriously, curve hit it on the head. period. end of discussion.

im ALLWAYS on the money

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Jun 26 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo has ticked all the boxes Valentino has at an even younger age, he is the next GOAT

Stoner 1 : Wc
Lorenzo 2 : Wc's

Let's use your logic;

Biaggi : 4 Wc's
Rainey : 3 Wc's

Yep, Biaggi is better than Rainey.

Here's another;

Stoner : 1 Wc
Andrew Pitt : 2 Wc's

It defies logic!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The big question for me on duc development is, does casey develop the bike for himself or does he just adapt to it, A lot of his fans would imply the latter seeing they say its all casey, proof nowone else can ride it. cant have it both ways


But Roger, is it Stoner's responsibility to develop a bike that others can ride, or is his job to develop a bike that he can ride?

My take (and this applies to all team lead riders) is that they are to develop a bike that allows them to produce the best results possible. If that means that others can ride the bike thean that is an advantage for the respective factory, if not however it is not the responsibility of the lead rider to develop a bike for others to ride.

Yes, it may well mean that a bike has a very narrow focus but that does not mean that the rider cannot develop or lead development.



As for this specific thread, well we can use current race results, championships and what not, but I cannot separate the two riders. There are strengths and weaknesses for both these riders (when compared to the other) but there is no way that I would say that today one is better than the other.








Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The big question for me on duc development is, does casey develop the bike for himself or does he just adapt to it, A lot of his fans would imply the latter seeing they say its all casey, proof nowone else can ride it. cant have it both ways
Lap times on supposedly inferior tyres would seem to indicate that the ducati has been developed since 2007, if perhaps not to the same extent as the yamaha. Casey would also appear to have had some input into the carbon fibre thingy, and seemed keen to claim ownership of it in pre-season testing, if not always in the subsequent season .

My working hypothesis or maybe what I hope is true is that they have altered the bike including the power curve and perhaps the aerodynamics to be more competitive on the handling circuits; certainly laguna seca last year suggested the bike and /or casey had difficulties in a dogfight. So far he is ahead of last year so it seems to have worked, albeit perhaps helped by mistakes by rossi and lorenzo. It now remains to be seen starting tomorrow whether he is still really fast on the circuits which suited the GP08; FP2 looked like a more traditional stoner/ducati practice ie fast from the get-go and running fewer laps than others.

No one could possibly dispute rossi's +/- jb's bike development and set-up abilities, with doohan/jb the only close parallel that I have seen. However this is a lorenzo v stoner thread, and I am not sure jorge's development and set-up skills are yet on display.The odd vague murmuring from valentino suggests he may see himself as in a similar position to doohan with alex criville.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>that was my point mike and reading your quote i can see the confusion. my point is , yes casey can ride the duke and only casey. where as i expect any class rider could ride the yam to a respectable finish because of the masterful development by rossi /jb, but this can not be seen to dis-advantage stoner. his bike works for him just fine.

The big question for me on duc development is, does casey develop the bike for himself or does he just adapt to it, A lot of his fans would imply the latter seeing they say its all casey, proof nowone else can ride it. cant have it both ways

The obvious refute to that argument is 2007, he jumped on that bike after it had been developed for Loris Capirosi, and did so becoming (irrespective of world championships) the only rider in the premier class to win more than 4 races a season against Vale, which he did 2 years running.

The first year was the fair year, with no one expecting the win and Bridgestone never having won a championship before, and Casey did it on Loris's bike on then untested tyres (no other B’stone runner made the top 3).

All the arguments against Casey have stretched the bow beyond logic and reason.

QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 09:02 PM)

The big question for me on duc development is, does casey develop the bike for himself or does he just adapt to it, A lot of his fans would imply the latter seeing they say its all casey, proof nowone else can ride it. cant have it both ways


I wish I could point out a zillion things that would prove my theory - but my gut says
it's his ability to adapt. He was competitive on it right from the start. All the changes
since - are his development. But still - no one else has been able to ride the damned
thing compeitively and the riders involved are not new to the sport. Hayden rode
well enough on the tiny-... Honda in 2007 all things considered. He has been known
as a good development rider and still can't do .... with the Ducati. It's a crazy bike
and Tardozzi is lucky to have Stoner. On the other hand - if Stoner hadn't fallen in
with them in 2007 - Ducati would have been forced to radically redesigned the bike to make
it work for a wider range of riders and they'd have more people up at the front.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jun 26 2009, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 09:02 PM)

The big question for me on duc development is, does casey develop the bike for himself or does he just adapt to it, A lot of his fans would imply the latter seeing they say its all casey, proof nowone else can ride it. cant have it both ways


I wish I could point out a zillion things that would prove my theory - but my gut says
it's his ability to adapt. He was competitive on it right from the start. All the changes
since - are his development. But still - no one else has been able to ride the damned
thing compeitively and the riders involved are not new to the sport. Hayden rode
well enough on the tiny-... Honda in 2007 all things considered. He has been known
as a good development rider and still can't do .... with the Ducati. It's a crazy bike
and Tardozzi is lucky to have Stoner. On the other hand - if Stoner hadn't fallen in
with them in 2007 - Ducati would have been forced to radically redesigned the bike to make
it work for a wider range of riders and they'd have more people up at the front.
I think i agree with you, stoner did apear to adapt to loris's bike that he had no part in developing. since then i dont think it has improved much. Its said casey played a big part in the carbon swing arm's development yet for the time at least it has been dropped in favour of the old ally one. So im not sure he developed the bike for himself or anyone else.
I suppose we will have to see how competitive casey is on the bike at the end of this season and the start of next to see how good he is in that area.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jun 26 2009, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 26 2009, 09:02 PM)

Tardozzi is lucky to have Stoner.
tardozzi.................. he wish's he had stoner!

i am not sure about Casey, whether he is really talented or just nuts, Lrenzo has an incredible record and is almost beating rossi on the same bike.
from what i gather about Ducati from rider interviews and moto gp insiders, the bike is not really developed by Casey. its designed in a different way to every other bike in moto gp, the bike is designed around electronics rather than the other way around.
listening to melandri interviews after he left, he said the bike is just un natural, you need blind confidence and to get the speed out of it you have to wind the throttle open further when you are about to crash.
on the one hand casy must be a very good rider to have won a WC and taking race wins since, on the other hand why hasnt he won 125 or 250 WC's or excelled on the Honda-dont blame michelin because rossi was on Michelins too. so i am sitting on the fence when it comes to how good stoner is. that Ducati is obviously an awesome bike, but has to be ridden like it is stolen, wheras the Yamaha rewards a much smoother style as developed by JB and VR

also people say what would Rossi be like n the Duke-well thats simple, he would have developed the bike the same way as he has the Ymaha so it would probably be a completely different bike, therefor its a pointless question!

i think Lorenzo is the more talented but Casy could prove me wrong.

the future after Rossi:
Lorenzo
Pedrosa
Stoner
Spies
Simoncelli

Ben Spies being the one of most interest

to summerise +1 for lorenzo !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jun 26 2009, 07:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo would suck on the Duc...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jun 26 2009, 04:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Anyone see the interview with Edwards where he basically says that WhoreGay uses whatever setup and then just adjusts his riding style to suit.

Doesn't that mean that JL would excel on the Duc?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhyko7 @ Jun 26 2009, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>listening to melandri interviews after he left, he said the bike is just un natural, you need blind confidence and to get the speed out of it you have to wind the throttle open further when you are about to crash.

on the one hand casy must be a very good rider to have won a WC and taking race wins since, on the other hand why hasnt he won 125 or 250 WC's

or excelled on the Honda-dont blame michelin because rossi was on Michelins too.

so i am sitting on the fence when it comes to how good stoner is. that Ducati is obviously an awesome bike, but has to be ridden like it is stolen, wheras the Yamaha rewards a much smoother style as developed by JB and VR

also people say what would Rossi be like n the Duke-well thats simple, he would have developed the bike the same way as he has the Ymaha so it would probably be a completely different bike, therefor its a pointless question!

just a couple of thoughts on your post rhyko7.

i hear this from other riders all the time that ALL (especially the duc) motogp bikes have beocome "pin it everywhere". that you don't have to let off the gas, etc. (hopper, melandri, etc.) i call bs. next time you're watching a race, LISTEN. they let off the gas allright, and SLOWLY apply it as they near the apex ... hold maintenance throttle, and then apply more as they exit. everytime, everyturn. you want to hear pinning it at the apex? go listen to matt mladin's gsxr 1000 last year. now THAT was electronics. you could hear the engine cutting out. almost sounded like something was wrong! don't get me wrong, i'm sure they have a ton of electronics in motogp that assist with traction, but i just don't buy into the "they just pin it everywhere" ... that it's all electronics now. again, bs.

on the 125 and 250 WC's. it' my understanding that he was on inferior equipment, but still managed to do well.

on the michelins. wasn't rossi BITCHIN like a mofo about how bad michelins were? and he's THE MAN in gp. was getting special cooked tires just for him (and a few others). if he said they sucked, can you imagine what stoner was getting?

awesome bike in his hands. and melandri can obviously ride a bike! hayden too. i mean the man DID win a WC in the rossi era. no small feet!

on your last comment, i see where you're going with that, but i'm not so sure. sounds like they are pretty proud of their machine and was a big reason rossi didn't go ride for ducati. he wanted to have more input - hence taking JB with him, and making a TON of progress to make the Yam what it is today.

anyway. it's all just opinions. just food for though. there is no real right answer on any of this stuff.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krusty @ Jun 26 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let's use your logic;

Biaggi : 4 Wc's
Rainey : 3 Wc's

Yep, Biaggi is better than Rainey.

Here's another;

Stoner : 1 Wc
Andrew Pitt : 2 Wc's

It defies logic!

Well I was fishing and as always a Stoner fanboy will bite

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jun 26 2009, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>just a couple of thoughts on your post rhyko7.



on the michelins. wasn't rossi BITCHIN like a mofo about how bad michelins were? and he's THE MAN in gp. was getting special cooked tires just for him (and a few others). if he said they sucked, can you imagine what stoner was getting?
funny, i thought stoner was on the michilins in 06 (when they were good ) and rossi was complaining about them in 07 (when stoner was on stones) get your facts straight mate !