Stoner Sandbagging

Goatboy said:

& Proving my point...

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Groaty, as the target of your misguided zeal, rabid response, the rest of your crap - and considering your subsequent pseudo intellectualI defense - I forgive you and nominate you wholeheartedly for the Moron of the Month award - all of March 2011 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Now it would be constructive to get back to the issues:



Was CS sandbagging - could he have gone faster

Will CS take away Hogay's Monogram

And what concerns some of us - WHEN and IF VR and JB will move forward from midfield

ptk50 said:

Was CS sandbagging - could he have gone faster

Will CS take away Hogay's Monogram

And what concerns some of us - WHEN and IF VR and JB will move forward from midfield

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I don't think Casey was sandbagging, at all. I am convinced he was just going about his testing as usual. I do think he could have gone faster, but so could everyone else most likely. It is one thing to have the whole day to ride around and go as fast as you can, and it's something else to be riding in direct competition with time or laps running out while attempting to settle the grid positions or race order. I think we all know which yields faster laptimes.



As for Rossi, i think he'll be sorted from the start to an extent. I don't believe for a second he'll be riding around with the satellite riders come Qatar, he will be at the front. Maybe that wont be contention for the win and he may even wind up getting 4ths, 5ths and 6th to start with, but he'll be thereabouts or perhaps higher. For Rossi and Ducati though, not contending for the win is a step backwards so they will be working harder than ever.

Considering Michelins ability to make and deliver tires in one day that suited a certain bike and rider, its silly to think that Bridgestone could not develope, and produce a tire in a month that suited a certain bike and rider.

Tom said:

Are you suggesting the control tyre is developed in a way that specifically favours certain parties over others, or just that the control tyre is altogether of a lower quality, with punctures and issues of that nature (like we saw last weekend) making things far less than fair

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What follows is hearsay, completely unverified and probably unverifiable. Have a pinch or two of salt at the ready: Pirelli is in charge of distributing the tires to the teams. It has piles and piles of tires. It is alleged - some may say, by sore losers - that Pirelli keeps a stack of very old tires lying around for distribution to teams or riders who whine too much, and to the poor teams. If you're a constant bottom-order rider, you get the rock-hard five-year-old Corsas, making your job even worse. I have also heard it alleged that some riders who had been outspoken at one round about the quality of the tires found out the next round that things could quite easily get an awful lot worse.



In MotoGP, Bridgestone supplies all of the tires, with each tire labeled with a bar code. Technical Director Mike Webb then distributes these tires at random, the numbers basically being drawn by a computer. In WSBK, Pirelli oversees the distribution of tires. No controls exist on the way in which they are distributed among the teams, no random selection system exists. It is at the discretion of the Pirelli staff on the ground.

Kropotkin said:

What follows is hearsay, completely unverified and probably unverifiable. Have a pinch or two of salt at the ready: Pirelli is in charge of distributing the tires to the teams. It has piles and piles of tires. It is alleged - some may say, by sore losers - that Pirelli keeps a stack of very old tires lying around for distribution to teams or riders who whine too much, and to the poor teams. If you're a constant bottom-order rider, you get the rock-hard five-year-old Corsas, making your job even worse. I have also heard it alleged that some riders who had been outspoken at one round about the quality of the tires found out the next round that things could quite easily get an awful lot worse.



In MotoGP, Bridgestone supplies all of the tires, with each tire labeled with a bar code. Technical Director Mike Webb then distributes these tires at random, the numbers basically being drawn by a computer. In WSBK, Pirelli oversees the distribution of tires. No controls exist on the way in which they are distributed among the teams, no random selection system exists. It is at the discretion of the Pirelli staff on the ground.

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I never paid any attention, but im guessing that means there are no data codes imprinted on a race slick. If what your saying is true, there should be at least a sticker on each tire that shows all pertinent information. Racing on out of date tires could be fatal. You would think that Infront,Pirelli, and the Flammini;s could be held liable if a racer was killed or injured on a tire that had outlived its shelf life

Kropotkin said:

Leaving aside whether a control tire is a good idea or not, you can trust Bridgestone to behave even-handedly. Now, World Superbikes, that's a different matter altogether ...

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Well it seems at least Ben Spies believes that, or is forced to believe that. But it seemed odd that they (Spies & Zeelenberg) couldn't come up was a reasonable explanation for their faith in Bstone. I mean, I could say, well the Japanese as a general statement are trust worthy, but really, is that enough? Maybe its just cynical me, who thinks power politics trump (or at very least influence) the authenticity & integrity of the competition. I want mechanisms in place with independent third party monitors, and this communicated to the world, if a very least the riders, some when a chump like me asks, "how do you know everybody is getting the same stuff", the answer can come back as, "because of this...."

Kropotkin said:

In MotoGP, Bridgestone supplies all of the tires, with each tire labeled with a bar code. Technical Director Mike Webb then distributes these tires at random, the numbers basically being drawn by a computer. In WSBK, Pirelli oversees the distribution of tires. No controls exist on the way in which they are distributed among the teams, no random selection system exists. It is at the discretion of the Pirelli staff on the ground.

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Thanks, so this basically address the 'random' nature of the pick, and surely if this is the way its done, then everybody should be getting a fair shake of what is brought by Bstone. (I accept its still a human system susceptible to error, as I recall Rossi had a tire once with the incorrect markings, haha). The question I had was, how do the riders know the development cues are not lob sided toward one specific rider? In other words, yes, I see based on this mechanism, that everybody is getting basically what Bstone brought to the party, but that may simply mean everybody is getting a spec of tire designed for one or two riders. I'm fairly certain the cues are taken by the top 5-7 riders, and I'm sorta ok with that. For the moment, I think it seems rather "even-handed". I don't think any one particular rider is getting preference, but that was not the impression I got in 2008. But that just may be from my cynical point of view and based on happenstance coincidence rather than the reality.

Jumkie said:

Thanks, so this basically address the 'random' nature of the pick, and surely if this is the way its done, then everybody should be getting a fair shake of what is brought by Bstone. (I accept its still a human system susceptible to error, as I recall Rossi had a tire once with the incorrect markings, haha). The question I had was, how do the riders know the development cues are not lob sided toward one specific rider? In other words, yes, I see based on this mechanism, that everybody is getting basically what Bstone brought to the party, but that may simply mean everybody is getting a spec of tire designed for one or two riders. I'm fairly certain the cues are taken by the top 5-7 riders, and I'm sorta ok with that. For the moment, I think it seems rather "even-handed". I don't think any one particular rider is getting preference, but that was not the impression I got in 2008. But that just may be from my cynical point of view and based on happenstance coincidence rather than the reality.

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That's a decent summary of the situation. The tires are distributed at random, and the randomness of that process is monitored by someone outside Bridgestone. However, the tires that are distributed are the ones that Bridgestone choose to develop, and their decisions are based on 1: Feedback from all of the riders, and 2: the feedback they choose to listen to. That may favor one rider over another.

Hope CS is sandbagging but is unlikely based on his reputation to get fast laps very quickly.

BHarvey said:

Hope CS is sandbagging but is unlikely based on his reputation to get fast laps very quickly.

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If he is "sandbagging" everybody is ....... First of all, welcome to the forum, hope you're not a one post pony. Second, I don't believe for one minute the man is sandbagging, it just doesn't seem to jive with what we've seen and read of him as spectators. So I agree with you that its unlikely. But yeah, that would be something if come Qatar he pull out a second of a lap on everybody. But then again, I thought he was pretty quick last year, then disaster struck and "gifted" the victory to Rossi. We will see.

Kropotkin said:

What follows is hearsay, completely unverified and probably unverifiable. Have a pinch or two of salt at the ready: Pirelli is...

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Speaking of which, what was the deal with all the flat tires in SS at the PI round of WSBK? What the official word?

Jumkie said:

Speaking of which, what was the deal with all the flat tires in SS at the PI round of WSBK? What the official word?

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The official word is "unfortunate." The unofficial word is heat build up, which points to manufacturing QA. Which sounds about right ...

Kropotkin said:

The official word is "unfortunate." The unofficial word is heat build up, which points to manufacturing QA. Which sounds about right ...

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Ah yes, thanks Kropo. Well I counted 3 thanks to the tube. Were there anymore "unfortunate" flats?

J4rn0 said:

Conspiracy theories are so funny, but convenient, you can use them for your purpose and nobody is going to be able to prove or disprove anything... Luckily the real races will begin soon enough so there will also be some real fodder for discussion.



But even with conspiracy theories, one should try to make them at least plausible. When I hear that the 2008 BS tire was developed for Rossi, it is really stupid. Where was the time to do that custom development? Especially when the same people say that BS was forced to supply Rossi, at the last minute. How can you design your 2008 tires for someone you do not know will be using them, and who has never tried them before...

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Just to get the conspiracy theory straight, and I hope I am paraphrasing lex vaguely accurately, the substance of it was I think that the particular exotic multicompound tyre the ducati was designed around was taken away from ducati in 2008 before the control tyre came in officially in 2009, probably at dorna's behest. I agree with you and said so at the time that I was not convinced that bridgestone were all that reluctant to supply valentino, but I think they were genuine about wanting tyre competition to continue, and the lack of this may be a strong contributor to them apparently departing the sport.



Interested to hear what kropotkin says about pirelli in WSBK. I didn't follow it as much last year with bayliss and spies no longer there , but the pirelli control tyre previously has not lasted for the whole race, which contributes to better races, and I have always wondered whether this was more or less deliberate, as the flammini brothers are bike racing guys who understand racing. One of the problems with bridgestone's control tyre for me is that it is too good and lasts the whole race, and takes away from previously required skills of preserving tyres and riding on worn tyres, another way in which it doesn't help valentino.



All the stuff about valentino being in decline is stuff and nonsense in my view, unless the shoulder injury is permanently disabling. To my mind the 2008 season was his best season ever, and he rode pretty well in 2009 as well and won the 1st race in qatar last year prior to the injury. Jorge also rode remarkably well last year though, and it was up to valentino to remain healthy for the season as it was to mick doohan in 1992.

Kropotkin said:

The official word is "unfortunate." The unofficial word is heat build up, which points to manufacturing QA. Which sounds about right ...

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PI really is in trouble then, if it is too cold for tyres in october and too hot for them in february.

michaelm said:

PI really is in trouble then, if it is too cold for tyres in october and too hot for them in february.

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I doubt that was Kropos point. It seems it was a compound prob.

Don't worry about Casey Stoner sandbagging kids........ cuz in the next test it's gonna be Hiroshi Aoyama at the top of the timesheet once he gets his new factory spec bike sorted out.

Jumkie said:

I doubt that was Kropos point. It seems it was a compound prob.

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I wasn't being serious. My belief is that dorna want to change the date of the australian gp for scheduling/logistic reasons, and basically would be happy to have an excuse to scrap the whole thing because of the expense of tavelling there, inconvenient tv broadcast times in europe etc. Loris capirossi, the other rider on the safety committee, did make a strong statement the other day that it needed to be moved for safety reasons though.

J4rn0 said:

You may remember that I for one always doubted the sincerity of BS' 'reluctance' to supply Rossi, however the point in my post was that if you believe they really didn't want to supply him, that makes the idea that they developed the tire for him that same year even more absurd...

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I can see BS desiring to beat Rossi while he was on Michelins - simply because he was considered to be the best.



Also... people would say that the great results on BS tires - was only because they were being ridden by Rossi - or designed around Rossi.

michaelm said:

Just to get the conspiracy theory straight, and I hope I am paraphrasing lex vaguely accurately, the substance of it was I think that the particular exotic multicompound tyre the ducati was designed around was taken away from ducati in 2008 before the control tyre came in officially in 2009, probably at dorna's behest. I agree with you and said so at the time that I was not convinced that bridgestone were all that reluctant to supply valentino, but I think they were genuine about wanting tyre competition to continue, and the lack of this may be a strong contributor to them apparently departing the sport.



Interested to hear what kropotkin says about pirelli in WSBK. I didn't follow it as much last year with bayliss and spies no longer there , but the pirelli control tyre previously has not lasted for the whole race, which contributes to better races, and I have always wondered whether this was more or less deliberate, as the flammini brothers are bike racing guys who understand racing. One of the problems with bridgestone's control tyre for me is that it is too good and lasts the whole race, and takes away from previously required skills of preserving tyres and riding on worn tyres, another way in which it doesn't help valentino.



All the stuff about valentino being in decline is stuff and nonsense in my view, unless the shoulder injury is permanently disabling. To my mind the 2008 season was his best season ever, and he rode pretty well in 2009 as well and won the 1st race in qatar last year prior to the injury. Jorge also rode remarkably well last year though, and it was up to valentino to remain healthy for the season as it was to mick doohan in 1992.

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I recall Spies commenting on tires lasting till the end of the race - saying that they were problematical for him

as - when the bike was running lighter due to less fuel - he could pull off his best passing maneuvers on a worn tire.

My feeling is, the tyres supplied now by BS are designed to suit the widest spectrum of as many of the top riders as possible, without being too extreme in any one direction, and without directing development to suit any one rider, and this is probably a good base (although probably does not suit Stoner or Rossi). You don't often hears riders complaining about the tyres.

I probably prefered to see two manufacturers, with competition, but if one manufacturer is not up to scratch that will almost immediately eliminates any riders on that tyre brand (however same case if one bike manufacturer is not up to scratch).



I think the story with tyres is now bigger than designing tyre specs to suit what one rider likes.

I would not be surprised to find that factories use their existing supply agreements with BS to pressured BS to spec the GP tyres towards the requirements of that factory, and to suit the development direction of their bikes.

For example Honda go to BS and say, we will spec BS tyres as standard equip on all our CBR 1000 / CBR 600's delivered into the US in 2011, but we want you to spec the GP tyre towards a stiff carcus construction, with ....... that suits the direction of our development.

Who are the main tyre suppliers to each of the manufacturers (ie which factories support Bridgstone with standard equipment on their bikes). For example, I know that in Aust most of the Ducati's are sold new with Pirelli tyres as standard spec. Does that mean all Ducatis world wide are spec'd with the same tyres.

What about Honda and Yamaha.



Just for interest, anyone know.... What does Bridgestone pay to be the official supplier to MotoGP.

Does any of that Bridgestone money go back to the teams.