Stoner Sandbagging

michaelm · Feb 28, 2011

povol said:
You do realize that neither series has a qualifying tire, so its a moot point.

Some riders ran the soft tyre for the actual race at some circuits last year, but usually not casey or valentino; their riding styles appear to be better suited to hard tyres, and in particular to a hard tyre no longer produced by bridgestone which also suited the ducati better as well. I still think stoner's and ducati's woes last year were at least partly related to tyres not suiting, and the bridgestone control tyre appeared to suit lorenzo better than rossi as well.

Interesting that stoner appeared to do as many laps at sepang as anyone else, including race simulations; he has been heavily criticised for only doing short runs on the ducati in recent seasons. My memory of 2007 was that he did plenty of laps and race simulations then, so perhaps at ducati recently he was only doing short runs because he was constantly searching for a good set-up (which going on valentino's experience thus far may not exist) rather than laziness, arrogance or whatever as many speculated.

povol · Feb 28, 2011

michaelm said:
Some riders ran the soft tyre for the actual race at some circuits last year, but usually not casey or valentino; their riding styles appear to be better suited to hard tyres, and in particular to a hard tyre no longer produced by bridgestone which also suited the ducati better as well. I still think stoner's and ducati's woes last year were at least partly related to tyres not suiting, and the bridgestone control tyre appeared to suit lorenzo better than rossi as well.

Interesting that stoner appeared to do as many laps as anyone else, including race simulations; he has been heavily criticised for only doing short runs on the ducati in recent seasons. My memory of 2007 was that he did plenty of laps and race simulations then, so perhaps at ducati recently he was only doing short runs because he was constantly searching for a good set-up (which going on valentino's experience thus far may not exist) rather than laziness, arrogance or whatever as many speculated.

Sure they did, if the track conditions allowed for it. The soft compound tire is that in name only . It is slightly softer than the hard compound. I was just pointing out to ptk50 that a Q tire does not exist after he made this statement.

That almost anybody racing on quali tires would eventually have to pit and change - and not win the race - is fairly obvious.

It is fairly obvious that he thought a Q tire exist, or this conversation would never have happened. The Q tire was a virtual guarantee of a faster lap time, the softer of the 2 race compounds sometimes is faster, sometimes not.

Talpa · Feb 28, 2011

michaelm said:
Some riders ran the soft tyre for the actual race at some circuits last year, but usually not casey or valentino; their riding styles appear to be better suited to hard tyres, and in particular to a hard tyre no longer produced by bridgestone which also suited the ducati better as well. I still think stoner's and ducati's woes last year were at least partly related to tyres not suiting, and the bridgestone control tyre appeared to suit lorenzo better than rossi as well.

Interesting that stoner appeared to do as many laps at sepang as anyone else, including race simulations; he has been heavily criticised for only doing short runs on the ducati in recent seasons. My memory of 2007 was that he did plenty of laps and race simulations then, so perhaps at ducati recently he was only doing short runs because he was constantly searching for a good set-up (which going on valentino's experience thus far may not exist) rather than laziness, arrogance or whatever as many speculated.

Either way the tire choice for this level of racing is appalling, as you say most of the problems which occurred to top level riders last season were the result of a 'lack' of Compound choice for various conditions, vastly different riding styles and setups.

As for Stoner doing more work, well........new employer, you know how it is

Seriously though, I feel the competition he now faces in his garage has a lot to do with this kind of motivation....

Jumkie · Feb 28, 2011

Talpa said:
Either way the tire choice for this level of racing is appalling...

Oh really? And how about the tire "choices" offerred say from 2001-2006?

povol · Feb 28, 2011

Jumkie said:
Oh really? And how about the tire "choices" offerred say from 2001-2006?

Depending on who you were, the tire choices were pretty damn good

Mental Anarchist · Feb 28, 2011

Renjith said:
I hope you are aware that a rider can deliberately run wide in one corner and yet be on the edge through out the rest of the lap.

In my mind a lot of things are possible by running on the edge but yet sand bagging - you can choose to ride hard for 2 of 3 sectors and relax a bit on the third one

Also, a rider can chose to see how the bike responds in certain corners only by riding hard at that part of the circuit and then laze a bit around the rest(of course maintaining the tire temp).

And regarding Rossi, from what I remember reading during the test, he was running mostly on hard tires. Isn't it logical to run hard tires mostly to find a solution if they don't seem to working well?

Maybe you miss read my post as I quite clearly said that they may sand bag by a couple of tenths or in one sector. What I doubt is that any team or rider would be sand bagging by 1.5 seconds or more.

I am sure you are aware that all the teams have all the sector times etc for every rider so there is little benefit from sandbagging a different corner of each lap. It does not take long to work out an ultimate lap for each rider using best sector times.

Talpa · Feb 28, 2011

Jumkie said:
Oh really? And how about the tire "choices" offerred say from 2001-2006?

The choices were great!!! As they had been for years, open to all to make rubber for the fastest race bikes in the world, and to Taylor them to all circuits......you must like shopping at kmart

Jumkie · Feb 28, 2011

Talpa said:
The choices were great!!! As they had been for years, open to all to make rubber for the fastest race bikes in the world, and to Taylor them to all circuits......you must like shopping at kmart

When Rossi was winning, the tires were great. When Rossi is not winning, the tires r "appalling".

Lebowski · Feb 28, 2011

Talpa said:
The choices were great!!! As they had been for years, open to all to make rubber for the fastest race bikes in the world, and to Taylor them to all circuits......you must like shopping at kmart

Hang on, wasn't it just the other day you were questioning whether the single supplier should be extended to aspects other than the tyres in the interests of closer "competition"?

For what it's worth, I don't like the single tyre system in this class of racing. Many informed people seem to think that the reason Stoner and Ducati were able to dominate 2007 was helped by the two manufacturers working closely. If this is right, bravo to Ducati for having the guts to go with Bridgestone after years of Michelin winning.

frizzle · Feb 28, 2011

Jumkie said:
When Rossi was winning, the tires were great. When Rossi is not winning, the tires r "appalling".

Now come on.

He never said that, he was just thinking it.

michaelm · Feb 28, 2011

povol said:
Sure they did, if the track conditions allowed for it. The soft compound tire is that in name only . It is slightly softer than the hard compound. I was just pointing out to ptk50 that a Q tire does not exist after he made this statement.

That almost anybody racing on quali tires would eventually have to pit and change - and not win the race - is fairly obvious.

It is fairly obvious that he thought a Q tire exist, or this conversation would never have happened. The Q tire was a virtual guarantee of a faster lap time, the softer of the 2 race compounds sometimes is faster, sometimes not.

Sure, I got all that, I was attempting to agree with/support your view, obviously not very effectively.

michaelm · Feb 28, 2011

Talpa said:
As for Stoner doing more work, well........new employer, you know how it is

Why didn't that lazy ....... valentino do a proper race simulation then?

You have always been an opponent of the control tyre as far as I recall.

povol · Mar 1, 2011

michaelm said:
Sure, I got all that, I was attempting to agree with/support your view, obviously not very effectively.

Thats the problem with communication these days. Internet, text,tweet etc:, you cant judge the intent sometimes when you cant hear the tone of the conversation,and the body language that goes with it. I guess we need to start using more of these

and these http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif to express ourselves.

I didnt think you were being combative, i rarely disagree with anything you say.

ptk50 · Mar 1, 2011

povol said:
Sure they did, if the track conditions allowed for it. The soft compound tire is that in name only . It is slightly softer than the hard compound. I was just pointing out to ptk50 that a Q tire does not exist after he made this statement.

That almost anybody racing on quali tires would eventually have to pit and change - and not win the race - is fairly obvious.

It is fairly obvious that he thought a Q tire exist, or this conversation would never have happened. The Q tire was a virtual guarantee of a faster lap time, the softer of the 2 race compounds sometimes is faster, sometimes not.

The only thing that is obvious is that you have not correctly read my initial post on this - so why don't you do just that before you keep on rambling about what you think - I said - what I believe.

Prior to my post there had been a series of speculations that maybe VR could have been faster on the softer tire and maybe/ maybe not CS had at times used a softer tire for his fast laps.

I suggested to

1) "drop the soft tire speculation from the thread" - because it's BS and going nowhere other than to invite bopperism (tm -Jumkie) and

2) more to the point wrote introduce one simple rule that - "the tire you qualify on is the tire you start on" - no mention of special qualifying tires - it is feasible that some riders on some bikes can put in a fastest lap on a softer tire, then opt for the harder compound for the race distance. I've been following MotoGP long enough - like since 500cc 4 stroke singles - to have caught on that the short life, 3 or 4 lap qualifying specials from the Michelin heyday are a thing of the past. Also no mention of other F1 practices - mandatory tire changes or anything else as you insinuated in your initial reply

Like all of us in this forum you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but do me a favor and don't keep re-writing and changing what I say to suit yourself

povol · Mar 1, 2011

ptk50 said:
The only thing that is obvious is that you have not correctly read my initial post on this - so why don't you do just that before you keep on rambling about what you think - I said - what I believe.

Prior to my post there had been a series of speculations that maybe VR could have been faster on the softer tire and maybe/ maybe not CS had at times used a softer tire for his fast laps.

I suggested to

1) "drop the soft tire speculation from the thread" - because it's BS and going nowhere other than to invite bopperism (tm -Jumkie) and

2) more to the point wrote introduce one simple rule that - "the tire you qualify on is the tire you start on" - no mention of special qualifying tires - it is feasible that some riders on some bikes can put in a fastest lap on a softer tire, then opt for the harder compound for the race distance. I've been following MotoGP long enough - like since 500cc 4 stroke singles - to have caught on that the short life, 3 or 4 lap qualifying specials from the Michelin heyday are a thing of the past. Also no mention of other F1 practices - mandatory tire changes or anything else as you insinuated in your initial reply

Like all of us in this forum you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but do me a favor and don't keep re-writing and changing what I say to suit yourself

Whatever dude, i didnt re-write anything. That was a word for word copy and paste from the horses mouth. No biggie

Goatboy · Mar 1, 2011

I am interested to know how much time people think the soft tyre actually gains?

ptk50 · Mar 1, 2011

povol said:
Whatever dude, i didnt re-write anything. That was a word for word copy and paste from the horses mouth. No biggie

Here it is - my initial post

"ImO the soft tire thing should be dropped - not only in this thread, but in MotoGP - maybe there's one good thing that could be taken from F1 - the tire you qualify with is the tire you start with. I'm not sure if the advantage is only 2 tenths, but then with the Ducati 1.8 off the pace it's a moot point whether it's 2 or 4 tenths. I am a Rossi fan and DO see very very clearly that VR, JB and Ducati have got a LOT of work to do to move from lower mid-field to the pointed end of the pack. There are no Gods or miracles to help - just a long hard fight for Ducati against Honda, who have after 4 years finally developed a really fast and consistent bike without VR and JB."

find "qualifying tire" in that - in particular read the 1st point

Goatboy · Mar 1, 2011

ptk50 said:
Here it is - my initial post

"ImO the soft tire thing should be dropped - not only in this thread, but in MotoGP - maybe there's one good thing that could be taken from F1 - the tire you qualify with is the tire you start with. I'm not sure if the advantage is only 2 tenths, but then with the Ducati 1.8 off the pace it's a moot point whether it's 2 or 4 tenths. I am a Rossi fan and DO see very very clearly that VR, JB and Ducati have got a LOT of work to do to move from lower mid-field to the pointed end of the pack. There are no Gods or miracles to help - just a long hard fight for Ducati against Honda, who have after 4 years finally developed a really fast and consistent bike without VR and JB."

find "qualifying tire" in that - in particular read the 1st point

It's too late to defend yourself now, you've been branded.

Tom · Mar 1, 2011

ptk50 said:
The only thing that is obvious is that you have not correctly read my initial post on this - so why don't you do just that before you keep on rambling about what you think - I said - what I believe.

Prior to my post there had been a series of speculations that maybe VR could have been faster on the softer tire and maybe/ maybe not CS had at times used a softer tire for his fast laps.

I suggested to

1) "drop the soft tire speculation from the thread" - because it's BS and going nowhere other than to invite bopperism (tm -Jumkie) and

2) more to the point wrote introduce one simple rule that - "the tire you qualify on is the tire you start on" - no mention of special qualifying tires - it is feasible that some riders on some bikes can put in a fastest lap on a softer tire, then opt for the harder compound for the race distance. I've been following MotoGP long enough - like since 500cc 4 stroke singles - to have caught on that the short life, 3 or 4 lap qualifying specials from the Michelin heyday are a thing of the past. Also no mention of other F1 practices - mandatory tire changes or anything else as you insinuated in your initial reply

Like all of us in this forum you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but do me a favor and don't keep re-writing and changing what I say to suit yourself

I thought your point was fairly clear, i don't really get why there was any misunderstanding. However i feel with the relatively small difference between harder and softer tyres it wouldn't lead to an exciting tactical compromise

stiefel · Mar 1, 2011

Goatboy said:
It's too late to defend yourself now, you've been branded.

Wow! I noticed an increase of martyr complex sufferers among a certain subpopulation of this board, but ... wow....

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